Pagan influence on Christianity

[Augustus]

I hope not, but I wouldn't be surprised...

It's one of the more novel and creative 'theories' I've heard recently.

I imagine the Jews all bought them as souvenirs from the gift shop when their tour party popped as they passed through on the way to Zion. I myself own a miniature Eiffel Tower key ring that I was given as a gift which proves this theory has some real substance to it.

They probably started whipping them out in public and making a big song and dance over them just to show off as they couldn't post lots of holiday snaps on Facebook back then and they wanted to make others know how well travelled and pious they were.

 

[Muslim-UK]

You must have missed the first few words where it says "I lay in Zion... a stone". I don't know if you're familiar with Zion, but its a nickname of Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. Last ן checked, Mecca was not within the borders of any of those.

If you google promised land, Greater Israel you will see maps showing parts of Saudi Arabia fall within the land of Zion.

Onward to your Jewish "scholar".

How cute. If only this "scholar" knew that Judaism already comes with its own cubes: the inner and outer altars

The phylacteries worn on the foreheads are simple cubes, are they not? They also contain verses related to Oneness of GOD, keeping the Commandments and remembering the favour God bestowed upon the Israelites following their exodus from Egypt.

The rest of your post was informative. Of course Islam is just a continuation of the message given to Abraham pbuh. God still remained ONE, His Temple a sanctuary for believers. You must recall the Torah explains, Ishmael pbuh would beget 12 Princes and there would rise from amongst his descendants a Great Nation?

 

[Augustus]

If you google promised land, Greater Israel you will see maps showing parts of Saudi Arabia fall within the land of Zion.

Not the part including Mecca though. Agreed?

 

[Muslim-UK]

Not the part including Mecca though. Agreed?

Some show all of Arabia including Yemen

 

[Augustus]

Some show all of Arabia including Yemen

@Tumah What are the Jewish perspectives on what constitutes Greater Israel?

 

[Muslim-UK]

@Tumah What are the Jewish perspectives on what constitutes Greater Israel?

His guess will be as good as anyone else.

Proposals for a Jewish state - Wikipedia

"A Russian Jewish doctor residing in France named Dr M L Rothstein proposed the establishment of a Jewish state in Al-Hasa modern day Saudi Arabia in September 1917." [19][20]

19 - Lowe, Daniel. "'The Jewish State of Eastern Arabia'". Retrieved 20 June 2014.
20 - Aderet, Ofer. "The proposal Balfour rejected: A Jewish state in the Persian Gulf". Haaretz.

 

[Augustus]

His guess will be as good as anyone else.

I'm interested in his opinion as he is knowledgable about Judaism, and I find his posts interesting and informative.

If you are relying on Jewish scripture to base your claims then it is useful to see what Jewish scripture actually says and how it has been interpreted historically.

"A Russian Jewish doctor residing in France named Dr M L Rothstein proposed the establishment of a Jewish state in Al-Hasa modern day Saudi Arabia in September 1917." [19][20]

19 - Lowe, Daniel. "'The Jewish State of Eastern Arabia'". Retrieved 20 June 2014.
20 - Aderet, Ofer. "The proposal Balfour rejected: A Jewish state in the Persian Gulf". Haaretz.

From Lowe:

"Various locations were mooted for such a project, including Uganda, Argentina, Russia, Cyprus and, of course, Palestine. Indeed, just a month after dismissing Rothstein’s plan, Balfour himself wrote his now-famous declaration expressing Britain’s favour for the Zionist aim of ‘the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people’."

Should I assume that Argentina, Cyprus and Uganda are also part of Greater Israel?

 

[Tumah]

Islam means peace through the surrender of one's will to God. All Prophets followed this. You don't find Prophets in the Torah saying, they were following Judaism, or Christianity in the NT.

You also don't find Prophets in the Torah saying that they were following Islam.

Now recall in Psalms David pbuh mentions Pilgrimage to Baca, to the blessed house. Can you think of another place that sounds like Baca containing a house of Pilgrimage?

Did you read that right? In my book it says that they pass through the valley of Bacca on the way to the House of G-d. The house of G-d was the Temple in Jerusalem obviously. Does it make sense to you that they walked from Israel, all the way to Mecca on the way going to Jerusalem? No it doesn't.

David gives further clues about the Ko'-ra custodians of this blessed house:

The name ko'-ra-its. Qorchi, , beno Qorach Korahites; Sons of Korah in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. ; in the King James Version appears also as Korhite, Kohathite, Kore. Is the tribe that are being left in charge of this House of God by King David

We know this by reading Exodus 6: 24 The sons of Korah were Assir, Elkanah and Abiasaph. These were the Korahite clans.

And when we read, 1 Chronicles 6:31

31 These are the men David put in charge of the music in the house of the LORD after the ark came to rest there.

32 They ministered with music before the tabernacle, the tent of meeting, until Solomon built the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem. They performed their duties according to the regulations laid down for them

33 Here are the men who served, together with their sons: From the Kohathites: Heman, the musician, the son of Joel, the son of Samuel,

34 the son of Elkanah the son of Jeroham, the son of Eliel, the son of Toah,

35 the son of Zuph, the son of Elkanah, the son of Mahath, the son of Amasai,

36 the son of Elkanah, the son of Joel, the son of Azariah, the son of Zephaniah,

37 the son of Tahath, the son of Assir, the son of Ebiasaph, the son of Korah,

When we read Number 26: 11 The line of Korah, however, did not die out. meaning they survived as the righteous will survive.

Hence it is clear the Ark came to rest in the House of the Lord prior to it being moved to Jerusalem by Solomon from above verses. Meaning the House of God was not in Jerusalem

And of course I'm sure you know, the Final Prophet of God was from the banu Queresh, (ko'-ra-its. Qorchi, , beno Qorach) Tribe of Arabia, specifically in and around Mecca.

The sons of Korah that survived followed the rest of the Jews to Israel. They were from the Yitzhari family and had to perform their Temple services in the desert just like all the other Levites of the Kehasi family. There is no reason to assume that they stayed in the desert. Likewise, "Q-R-H" =/= "Q-R-Y-SH".

If you want to link a Korah to an Arabian tribe, choose Korah the son of Esau from Gen. 36:5. At least Esau's family lived in the same neighborhood.

We also know the Qur'an was revealed over a period of 23 years, a verse here and a verses there, a line here and a line there ....

Isaiah 28:9 “Whom shall he teach knowledge? And whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little.”

Because the Qur'an is the only book that has ever been taught slowly, concept by concept. Right.

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people,

Here we see a prophet speaking a foreign tongue to whom revelation will come with a line here and a verse there. He would struggle to read.

No we don't. I think you need to go back and read the chapter again. I don't think you really get what's going on in that chapter.

Let's start with identifying what happened to the descendants of Ephraim. I did a search and the following site came up. Endtimes Christian website:

The Descendants of Esau Are Ephraim and Judah’s Arch-Enemy in the End Times - Hoshana Rabbah Blog

How scholarly of you...

Is it possible some descendants of Ephraim ended up in Arabia in a valley dedicated to drunkenness and idolatry?

Anything is possible, but its the Assyrians who captured them, so I think we should expect them to be there rather than Arabia. Unless you have some proof otherwise?

Could the fading glory and bloated valley be possible references to a former house of God now dedicated to 360 idols?

No, because its talking about Ephraim here. The king of the Israelite Kingdom - the one exiled by the Assyrians - was from the tribe of Ephraim. Hence "the crown of pride". The fading flower...on the head of the fat valley broken from wine" is probably a reference to the land of the tribe of Ephraim.

God then goes on to warn how the inhabitants will fall under foot, crushed in battle. verse 5 hints things might soon be restored to their former glory and be ripe for eating/accepting.

The falling under foot thing is part of one of the many prophecies in Isaiah about them being conquered by the Assyrians. The return to glory by the remainder of the people - those people being the Judean Kingdom - is also one of many similar prophecies.

verse 6, God will aid the few and help them push back against the enemies. He will aid his Prophet, the spirit of justice. 7 The people are drunk, neglecting God in favour of useless idols. 8 so much so, the house is fully adorned with them.

...
It might not gel perfectly, but given what we know about how Islam established itself in Arabia, and how the Jews and Christians were told to embrace it and the ensuing strife, I think it's not a bad fit.

Its not a bad fit, its a horrible fit. You don't seem to be familiar with any of the themes that stretch throughout the Book of Isaiah. Namely, the exile of Northern and Southern Kingdoms by the Assyrians and Babylonians respectively, the admonition against idol worship and other assorted sins, the Messianic prophecies. You also don't seem to realize what Zion refers to.

Verses 1 - 4 speak about the downfall of Ephraim, as the kingdom and as the individual tribe among the 9 other tribes.

Verse 5 - 6 speak about the Judean Kingdom's rise in glory following the Israelite kingdom's fall.

Verses 7 - 8 add, that despite the Judean Kingdom's rise, they don't deserve it.

Verses 9 - 12 describes that there's no one to even talk to. If the priest or prophet would try to teach the people, they would need to constantly repeat and review everything like to a little baby, because the concepts have become so alien to the people.

Verse 13 says that nevertheless G-d is going to explain it all to them and [because they refuse to follow G-d,] they will end up stumbling [and eventually exiled as well].

Verses 14 begins the reproach [that they won't listen to] of the people of the Judean Kingdom.

Verses 15 is a metaphorical reference to the pact that the Judeans made with the Egyptians in chapter 30, thinking they would help them against the Assyrians.

Verses 16 - 18 says that G-d will have already set up a righteous ruler in the Judean Kingdom and they won't need the Egyptians.

Verse 19 says that the Assyrians will be hanging around, but they won't actually conquer the Judean Kingdom. They are only sent as a message for the Judeans to shape up.

Verses 20 - 22 go on about how G-d will stand against the Assyrians.

Verses 23 - 29 are various metaphors for how G-d is going to be leading the nation. There'll be some planting and there'll be some smacking.[/quote]

 

[Muslim-UK]

I'm interested in his opinion as he is knowledgable about Judaism, and I find his posts interesting and informative.

If you are relying on Jewish scripture to base your claims then it is useful to see what Jewish scripture actually says and how it has been interpreted historically.

Yes and no, Jewish input is welcome, but do remember the Jewish Scribes were happy to re-write history as it suited them.

From Lowe:

"Various locations were mooted for such a project, including Uganda, Argentina, Russia, Cyprus and, of course, Palestine. Indeed, just a month after dismissing Rothstein’s plan, Balfour himself wrote his now-famous declaration expressing Britain’s favour for the Zionist aim of ‘the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people’."

Should I assume that Argentina, Cyprus and Uganda are also part of Greater Israel?

Obviously not, but you should consider a connection between Zion and Saudi Arabia. Plenty of non Muslim Scholars have, and we know Jews have lived throughout Arabia and Yemen.

 

[Tumah]

@Tumah What are the Jewish perspectives on what constitutes Greater Israel?

The concept of "Greater Israel" seems to be a Zionist, not religious one. The only map I was able to find of what's mentioned in the Torah is this:

 

[Tumah]

If you google promised land, Greater Israel you will see maps showing parts of Saudi Arabia fall within the land of Zion.

You are confusing the land that was promised to Abraham with the land that was promised to the Jews. Abraham's children received the land in the Arabian peninsula.

The Bible contains three geographical definitions of the Land of Israel. The first, found in Genesis 15:18–21, seems to define the land that was given to all of the children of Abraham, including Ishmael, Zimran, Jokshan, Midian, etc. It describes a large territory, "from the brook of Egypt to the Euphrates", comprising all of modern-day Israel, the Palestinian Territories, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq, as well as Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, U.A.E, Oman, Yemen, most of Turkey, and all the land east of the Nile river.
-Wikipedia​

The phylacteries worn on the foreheads are simple cubes, are they not?

Both phylacteries on the head and arm have approximately the same dimensions. They are not simply a cube as the picture shows.

As you can see, there's a somewhat cube shape on top of a square (with an extra portion in the back to fit the straps). The cube shape is only because the way that the parchment needs to be placed into the "cube" part, makes it need to be somewhat tall. The height that gives it the cube shape is incidental. The entire product is made out of a single piece of leather and they must be made with this shape.

They also contain verses related to Oneness of GOD, keeping the Commandments and remembering the favour God bestowed upon the Israelites following their exodus from Egypt.

And bringing us to Israel, yes.

The rest of your post was informative. Of course Islam is just a continuation of the message given to Abraham pbuh.

I wouldn't say "of course" because frankly, you have no books from Abraham describing the message he received.

God still remained ONE, His Temple a sanctuary for believers.

Yeah, but this seems to be irrelevant.

You must recall the Torah explains, Ishmael pbuh would beget 12 Princes and there would rise from amongst his descendants a Great Nation?

Yeah, but that was fulfilled long before Muhammad was born. See Gen. 25:12-18.

 

[Tumah]

It's one of the more novel and creative 'theories' I've heard recently.

I imagine the Jews all bought them as souvenirs from the gift shop when their tour party popped as they passed through on the way to Zion. I myself own a miniature Eiffel Tower key ring that I was given as a gift which proves this theory has some real substance to it.

They probably started whipping them out in public and making a big song and dance over them just to show off as they couldn't post lots of holiday snaps on Facebook back then and they wanted to make others know how well travelled and pious they were.

You got it. On the way travelling from Bethlehem to Jerusalem, the Jews stopped by Mecca and saw that Kaaba. It looked like such a great idea that we decided to make two of them and walk around wearing them.

 

[Muslim-UK]

You also don't find Prophets in the Torah saying that they were following Islam.

That's right. They submitted their will to God and in Arabic there's a specific word for anyone who does that.

Did you read that right? In my book it says that they pass through the valley of Bacca on the way to the House of G-d. The house of G-d was the Temple in Jerusalem obviously. Does it make sense to you that they walked from Israel, all the way to Mecca on the way going to Jerusalem? No it doesn't.

That's your understanding, yet we know of no Temple in Jerusalem during Davids reign. We do know of a valley in Bekkah, which you pass through to reach a House of God in Mecca.

Because the Qur'an is the only book that has ever been taught slowly, concept by concept. Right.

History shows the Qur'an was revealed over a period of 23 years with a verse here and a verse there.

No we don't. I think you need to go back and read the chapter again. I don't think you really get what's going on in that chapter.

Feel free to give your explanation.

Christians say, the Book of Isaiah contains Prophecies associated with Jesus pbuh. I'm sure the truth is somewhere between the 3 different understandings.

 

[Augustus]

Yes and no, Jewish input is welcome, but do remember the Jewish Scribes were happy to re-write history as it suited them.

A perspective you obtained from the Muslim 'scribes' that conveniently means anything said by Jews about religion can be dismissed out of hand (the cherry picked verses used out of context in Islamic apologetics are always considered to be the unvarnished truth though).

And of course the Muslim 'scribes' only ever recorded objective facts completely uninfluenced by belief and circumstance.

In general though, all cultures utilise history towards their own ends, and prior to the modern era, history was as much about explaining the present than the past. The 'objective' study of history simply to seek 'truth' and abstract knowledge wasn't something that people really did.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Yeah, but that was fulfilled long before Muhammad was born. See Gen. 25:12-18.

12 This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham.

13 These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam,14 Mishma, Dumah, Massa, 15 Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. 16 These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. 17 Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. 18 His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them.

I see the 12 Princes God promised to Ishmael pbuh, but where's the Great Nation that was promised?

 

[Tumah]

12 This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham.

13 These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam,14 Mishma, Dumah, Massa, 15 Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. 16 These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. 17 Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. 18 His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them.

I see the 12 Princes God promised to Ishmael pbuh, but where's the Great Nation that was promised?

There was a lot of them. So many that they needed 12 princes. So many that they took up all the area between Havilah and Shur.

 

[Muslim-UK]

There was a lot of them. So many that they needed 12 princes. So many that they took up all the area between Havilah and Shur.

Here's a respected Rabbi explaining this Great Nation:

 

[Tumah]

That's right. They submitted their will to God and in Arabic there's a specific word for anyone who does that.

There's one in Hebrew too. Incidentally, it doesn't mean the religion of Islam.

That's your understanding, yet we know of no Temple in Jerusalem during Davids reign. We do know of a valley in Bekkah, which you pass through to reach a House of God in Mecca.

Where does it say in the Psalm that its talking about people who went to the Temple during David's reign? I don't see anything about David in the entire Psalm.

History shows the Qur'an was revealed over a period of 23 years with a verse here and a verse there.

The verse in Isaiah in question doesn't use the words "a verse here a verse there". It says, "precept by precept, line by line, a little there a little there". Basically, the way every person is taught when they're children.

Feel free to give your explanation.

Its there. I fixed the quotations so that it shows it now.

Christians say, the Book of Isaiah contains Prophecies associated with Jesus pbuh. I'm sure the truth is somewhere between the 3 different understandings.

Christians say a lot of nonsensical things. We don't have to believe everything they say.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Where does it say in the Psalm that its talking about people who went to the Temple during David's reign? I don't see anything about David in the entire Psalm.

I thought Jewish tradition held David pbuh wrote the book of Psalms, or certainly large parts of it?

 

[Tumah]

Here's a respected Rabbi explaining this Great Nation:

According to this respected Rabbi in the video, the "great nation" refers to how Arabs retained their identity as children of Ishmael throughout the ages.

I can accept that one.