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Out-of-Body Experience

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
From the New Your Times:


Studies Report Inducing Out-of-Body Experience

By SANDRA BLAKESLEE - Published: August 24, 2007

Using virtual-reality goggles, a camera and a stick, scientists have induced out-of-body experiences — the sensation of drifting outside of one’s own body — in ordinary, healthy people, according to studies being published today in the journal Science.

When people gazed at an illusory image of themselves through the goggles and were prodded in just the right way with the stick, they felt as if they had left their bodies.

The research reveals that “the sense of having a body, of being in a bodily self,” is actually constructed from multiple sensory streams, said one expert on body and mind, Dr. Matthew M. Botvinick, an assistant professor of neuroscience at Princeton University.

Usually these sensory streams, which include vision, touch, balance and the sense of where one’s body is positioned in space, work together seamlessly, Dr. Botvinick said. But when the information coming from the sensory sources does not match up, the sense of being embodied as a whole comes apart.

The brain, which abhors ambiguity, then forces a decision that can, as the new experiments show, involve the sense of being in a different body.

The research provides a physical explanation for phenomena usually ascribed to otherworldly influences, said Peter Brugger, a neurologist at University Hospital in Zurich, who, like Dr. Botvinick, had no role in the experiments. In what is popularly referred to as near-death experience, people who have been in the throes of severe and sudden injury or illness often report the sensation of floating over their body, looking down, hearing what is said and then, just as suddenly, finding themselves back inside their body. ...​
Yet another success for methodological naturalism, and another diminution of the domain of the God-of-the-Gaps.
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Many report with vivid detail what people said and did, describe surgical instruments they had never seen, and even conversations in other rooms while "out of body".
 

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
From the New Your Times:


Studies Report Inducing Out-of-Body Experience

By SANDRA BLAKESLEE - Published: August 24, 2007

Using virtual-reality goggles, a camera and a stick, scientists have induced out-of-body experiences — the sensation of drifting outside of one’s own body — in ordinary, healthy people, according to studies being published today in the journal Science.

When people gazed at an illusory image of themselves through the goggles and were prodded in just the right way with the stick, they felt as if they had left their bodies.

The research reveals that “the sense of having a body, of being in a bodily self,” is actually constructed from multiple sensory streams, said one expert on body and mind, Dr. Matthew M. Botvinick, an assistant professor of neuroscience at Princeton University.

Usually these sensory streams, which include vision, touch, balance and the sense of where one’s body is positioned in space, work together seamlessly, Dr. Botvinick said. But when the information coming from the sensory sources does not match up, the sense of being embodied as a whole comes apart.

The brain, which abhors ambiguity, then forces a decision that can, as the new experiments show, involve the sense of being in a different body.

The research provides a physical explanation for phenomena usually ascribed to otherworldly influences, said Peter Brugger, a neurologist at University Hospital in Zurich, who, like Dr. Botvinick, had no role in the experiments. In what is popularly referred to as near-death experience, people who have been in the throes of severe and sudden injury or illness often report the sensation of floating over their body, looking down, hearing what is said and then, just as suddenly, finding themselves back inside their body. ...​
Yet another success for methodological naturalism, and another diminution of the domain of the God-of-the-Gaps.
This work shows the Gaps in consciousness. Likely to create more questions than it answers.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
The medium for the consciousness to view the body in this case was a camera. It is essentially looking in a mirror. What is the medium for other out-of-body experiences?

Is it the brain creating a model of the body and room through sensory information normally filtered out, and viewing it third-person?
 

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
The medium for the consciousness to view the body in this case was a camera. It is essentially looking in a mirror. What is the medium for other out-of-body experiences?
Good question. These studies do not cover those where normal visual reception would be disrupted through trauma.
Is it the brain creating a model of the body and room through sensory information normally filtered out, and viewing it third-person?
They changed the frame of reference for receiving visual input and stimulated the subject's tactile senses accomodated to their usual frame of reference introducing a dissociation between tactile and visual information that is normally correlated to create first person perspective. They introduced a false correlation.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Sorry, Buttercup; you're absolutely correct. Unfortunately I dod not notice the earlier post prior to posting this one. Fortunately, the point deserves reinforcing.
It's alright, sweetie....no prob. I found the subject extremely fascinating, and if you looked at the questions I posited after the article, poignant for the same reasons as you. :)
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Good question. These studies do not cover those where normal visual reception would be disrupted through trauma.
No, the study does not take that into consideration. However, the experiment initiates a good premise in that our subconscious is capable of such an act. That's what's important in my mind.
 

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
No, the study does not take that into consideration. However, the experiment initiates a good premise in that our subconscious is capable of such an act. That's what's important in my mind.
The study does not but the commentary so far has talked about this result with extension to trauma related cases. It is not an experimental demonstration of subconsious processes so generalising to trauma cases or video gaming etc. is unwarranted at this stage.
 

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
I can agree with that statement. Thanks for the extra article.
Have you heard about "the binding problem"? It basically asks how diverse input from the senses is "bound" together to create an apparently fluid first person perspective. Correlated input was a good explanation. This study demonstrates that it is the case.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Have you heard about "the binding problem"? It basically asks how diverse input from the senses is "bound" together to create an apparently fluid first person perspective. Correlated input was a good explanation. This study demonstrates that it is the case.
Give them more time. ;)
 

yossarian22

Resident Schizophrenic
If they are able to actually recreate ones you see on TV, meaning causing it through trauma or something similar, then it would be more impressive.
They can do with NDEs already
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
They changed the frame of reference for receiving visual input and stimulated the subject's tactile senses accomodated to their usual frame of reference introducing a dissociation between tactile and visual information that is normally correlated to create first person perspective. They introduced a false correlation.

Which is essentially the same, right?

Of course, this also brings up that pesky homunculus problem again, wouldn't you say Oz? ;-)
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
Scientists are able to reproduce feelings/experiences that are both real, and not real. I would hardly call this a leap in disproving OBE's.
 

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
Which is essentially the same, right?

Of course, this also brings up that pesky homunculus problem again, wouldn't you say Oz? ;-)
Sorry for the delay in answering this. This experiment shows first person perspective is hard wired on the visual side, but adaptable on the somatosensory side. Visual perception is effortless as is creation of first person perspective from the correlation in normal conscious experience.

Hence there is no need for an homunculus to model or interprete the sensory input. The experiment demonstrates an effortless correlation, not an homunculus constructing "models". Brain function is parallel not serial.

Reliance on this correlation becomes effortless with experience in infance in much the same way as more complex activities such as driving a car can become acquired effortless activities in adulthood.

I still think the primary result from this experiment is a demonstration of "gaps in consciousness".
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
New Your Times? Sounds like some kind of new-age journal. :p


Yet another success for methodological naturalism, and another diminution of the domain of the God-of-the-Gaps.
Except that people aren't normally wearing special goggles that create an illusory image of themselves when they report these OBEs. And being able to recreate an experience doesn't mean one has really explained it.

I do like the theory tho, that our sense of self comes from the integration of different sensory streams and that when this is disrupted the brain tries to reintegrate the sensory information, resulting in a different "self." It fits well with what the Buddha said over 2,500 years ago - that there is "no self" and that what we perceive as our selves is the sum of five aggregates (skandhas). :cool:
 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
I read that article. Hadn't laughed so hard in ages. It's amazing what "scientists" will ignore to support their hypothesis and what reporters will ignore to support the dominant paradigm. As one scientist said, "Don't make the mistake of thinking scientists are scientific."
 
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