Origins of the Quran

[Saint Frankenstein]

If Muhammed copied the Bible how would he know not to copy those parts which are contradictory? How did he come up with the notion that the universe is expanding, the Bible doesn't teach this, no one taught this back then. How could he have known which parts to copy and which not?

There are similarities because they all originate from the same God.

And Christians have changed and corrupted the Bible over time. We have a modern example of how the teachings of the Bible are eventually changed either physically in the text or are interpreted in different ways as time goes by:

“If someone is gay and searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?” Two years ago Tuesday, Pope Francis uttered these words, sending shockwaves throughout the Catholic Church and the world. His position stood in contrast to that of his predecessors: Months earlier, Pope Benedict XVI suggested that gay marriage was a threat to global peace.

2. Pope Francis suggested the church could be open to civil unions — March 5, 2014
Francis said in an interview that the church could be open to same-sex civil unions, a view he had first voiced as archbishop of Buenos Aires. The pope reiterated the church’s teaching that a “marriage is between a man and a woman” but argued that on civil unions, “we have to look at different cases and evaluate them in their variety.”

http://time.com/3975630/pope-francis-lgbt-issues/

Are statements showing at least a little bit of charity towards gays the most "damning" evidence you can think of to make your point? Is hating homosexuality that big of an issue to you? You know, there's some pro-LGBT Muslims.

 

[psychoslice]

I myself see the Quran as a book that was written because someone else had their own idea how they saw God and what they believe God said. Muhammad probably did agree with the Jews and Christians at that time, so he fixed it up by making his own scripture, I personally don't see anything wrong in that, because we all hear what we call God in our own way, and I myself have made my own scripture that is written in my heart, not in some book, and this is why I don't follow any religion.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The koran did plagiarize the bible heavily.

It's hard to swallow a direct statement like this because it's an one-sided opinion; same as saying "I am right." In your words or summarize a good source, how did you conclude the Quran plagarize the Bible? If a Muslim studied the Bible and still believed the Quran is the correct word of God, how would you rebutt his claim since it is his faith and I'm sure he would know more about it?

 

[outhouse]

how did you conclude the Quran plagarize the Bible?

muhammads own family had a Christian priest in it known to write bible in Arabic.

Same cousin priest took orphaned Muhammad in at 5 years of age, after finding him wondering around alone. Must have had a really good uncle

Same guy is first to say muhammad was a prophet

Same guy had relationship with muhammad his whole life

It's hard to swallow a direct statement like this because it's an one-sided opinion; same as saying "I am right."

The fact these people wrote about moses, noah and Abraham is all the evidence required to know with certainty they plagiarized the earlier traditions.

There is no one sided about it. The information did not come out of thin air.

I'm sure he would know more about it?

Faith means belief in something where there is no evidence at all. That means they cannot know more about it.

 

[Gharib]

muhammad did not do it. he sold it to the people, not create it. Waraka muhammads cousin was a priest and new the bible well, and had a life long relationship with the man

I see Waraka doing this with all his biblical knowledge

Luck he did not know this.

It was plagiarized, not copied.

Muhammad had to factually have a teacher, it did not come out of thin air, and his cousin a priest taught him what he knew.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that says Muhammed learned from Waraqah or that there was ever any visiting between the two or that Waraqah is Muhammeds cousin.

What did Waraqah preach as a priest. Please post evidence with links. Anti-Islamic propaganda sites are not evidence.

 

[Gharib]

Are statements showing at least a little bit of charity towards gays the most "damning" evidence you can think of to make your point? Is hating homosexuality that big of an issue to you? You know, there's some pro-LGBT Muslims.

It was nothing about speaking ill of gays. I gave a modern example of how throughout time the Bible is either changed physically or by interpretation based on the challenges the church faces. Did you read my post properly?

 

[outhouse]

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that says Muhammed learned from Waraqah or that there was ever any visiting between the two or that Waraqah is Muhammeds cousin.

What did Waraqah preach as a priest. Please post evidence with links. Anti-Islamic propaganda sites are not evidence.

The text did not come from nowhere, it did not come out of thin air. Muhammad had to be taught this information, he factually had to have a teacher.

#1 YES OR NO?????????


the koran has copied mythology from the bible. That means we look at who muhammad knew that had biblical knowledge and wrote in Arabic.

#2 YES OR NO????????? and then who do we know about?

 

[outhouse]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waraka_ibn_Nawfal

It is said that in 576 Waraka found a lost five-year-old boy wandering around Upper Mecca. This was Muhammad

As Muhammad grew in age, Waraka's knowledge of the scriptures increased.

Waraka acknowledged his call to prophecy as authentic


Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa

Muhammad is later said to have said of Waraka: "Do not slander Waraka ibn Nawfal, for I have seen that he will have one or two gardens in Paradise."[

 

[Unveiled Artist]

muhammads own family had a Christian priest in it known to write bible in Arabic.

Same cousin priest took orphaned Muhammad in at 5 years of age, after finding him wondering around alone. Must have had a really good uncle

Same guy is first to say muhammad was a prophet

Same guy had relationship with muhammad his whole life



The fact these people wrote about moses, noah and Abraham is all the evidence required to know with certainty they plagiarized the earlier traditions.

There is no one sided about it. The information did not come out of thin air.



Faith means belief in something where there is no evidence at all. That means they cannot know more about it.

I can't say you're wrong. I mean, it could be I don't know. To tell you honestly, when it comes to sacred text, I lean towards believers. Come on now, rolling your eyes? The tone doesn't sound like this is educational information more bias (good or bad).

I hope a Muslim who knows about his sacred text to share his views on this. I mean, give an example, young Catholic priests know very well about Church history, what the Church did and does and so forth yet they still believe their Bible and their Church. I'm sure there is a Muslim who knows about the ends and outs of his scriptures...though he may give a different perspective, bias, of course but hopefully not saying he is right and you are wrong type of thing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@outhouse If you are right, how does plagiarism (which is kind of negative)change the authenticity of Muslim belief. They said the Quran is an attempt to correct what both the Torah and Bible said. So if it did take from it, there was a reason and not a negative one.

 

[outhouse]

Come on now, rolling your eyes? The tone doesn't sound like this is educational information more bias (good or bad).

That's was in context/reference to muhammads uncle leaving the 5 year sold boy wander around a mountain alone.

It was not of for our friend Gharib

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's was in context/reference to muhammads uncle leaving the 5 year sold boy wander around a mountain alone.

It was not of for our friend Gharib

Read post 30. Better summary of my point.

 

[outhouse]

@outhouse If you are right, how does plagarizim (which is kindof negative)change the authenticity of Muslim belief.

It shows a natural plausible explanation for the text, not a supernatural one.

They said the Quran is an attempt to correct what both the Torah and Bible said.

Who are they to judge others beliefs and traditions?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It shows a natural plausible explanation for the text, not a supernatural one.




Who are they to judge others beliefs and traditions?

Why is it not supernatural? All three religious text claim authenticity not because of it's possible errors textual accuracy but because it is from God.

 

[Gharib]

The text did not come from nowhere, it did not come out of thin air. Muhammad had to be taught this information, he factually had to have a teacher.

#1 YES OR NO?????????


the koran has copied mythology from the bible. That means we look at who muhammad knew that had biblical knowledge and wrote in Arabic.

#2 YES OR NO????????? and then who do we know about?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waraka_ibn_Nawfal

It is said that in 576 Waraka found a lost five-year-old boy wandering around Upper Mecca. This was Muhammad

As Muhammad grew in age, Waraka's knowledge of the scriptures increased.

Waraka acknowledged his call to prophecy as authentic


Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa

Muhammad is later said to have said of Waraka: "Do not slander Waraka ibn Nawfal, for I have seen that he will have one or two gardens in Paradise."[

So Muhammed needed to have a teacher. This teacher according to you is Waraqah. Muhammed met him when he was 5 and another time when he was 40 (when the first revelation came). Muhammed learned the Bible and the Torah from these two times that he met Waraqah, who was also his cousin, seeing that Waraqah was his teacher according to you. Waraqah kept increasing in knowledge of the scriptures because this probably has something to do with Muhammed growing up. Ater having taught Muhammed the Bible and the Torah during the two times that they met when Muhammed was 5 and 40, Waraqah then acknowledged that Muhammed is a prophet. And then Muhammed told people not to slander Waraqah because not only was he his cousin, but also his teacher who taught him everything that one time they met when he was 5.

Your argument is spot on, not to mention the undisputed evidence you didn't provide.

And just so I get it right, Muhammed and Waraqah were cousins, they met for the first time when Muhammed was lost at the age of 5. Waraqah decided to become his teacher and taught him the Bible and Torah during this first time that they met while Muhammed was 5. And then Waraqah said that Muhammed is a prophet and after he died Muhammed said not to slander him because Waraqah was his teacher who taught him the Bible when he was 5 and was his teacher as well as his cousin.

Outhouse, you've learned a few names, increased in knowledge regarding some words and some events (while I was growing up) and you just keep repeating yourself like a parrot throughout the forum. Do yourself a favour, educate yourself and learn to show evidence.

 

[EtuMalku]

You may find this article of interest here . . . particularly the Christian / Islam segments

http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/gilchrist/muhammad/chapter1.html

 

[arthra]

Muslims.

I was told by a christian the other day that Muhammad took parts of the Bible and put it into the Quran. She asserted that her faith is true one of many reasons because other religions "stole" from the Bible. Is the former true?
I told her that time period doesnt change a sacred book's authenticity. How does being the oldest abrahamic faith (which I believe is Judaism to make it simple) make one religion true and the other false?

The revelation of Prophet Muhammad came after the Torah and Psalms and the Gospel so they are mentioned in the Qur'an.. The Gospels also quote the Torah... Doesn't make them less "true". Prophet Muhammad was an illiterate man without formal education or scriptural knowledge and received revelations over twenty some years... His cousin Ali ibn abi Talib was present or nearby when these revelations occurred. The Qur'an has not been altered.. It has been recited from the beginning.... Had the words of Jesus been recited from the beginning of His Ministry (maybe by His brother James) they would likely sound a lot like the Qur'an in my view... They would be in Aramaic...not Greek or Latin.

There is one religion of God that has appeared from the earliest time and revealed through a series of Prophets and Messengers to the present era.

 

[outhouse]

Why is it not supernatural?

Because the authors are clearly human

 

[outhouse]

two times that he met Waraqah

You think that is all he met?

It does not say each of the two times was for 20 years each time does it.

Sorry fail on your part


Look there are only two choices here.

muhammad learned the bible from his own family member, a heretical priest writing an Arabic bible, knowing his did not like orthodox Christianity, that he wanted to change.

OR

An angel told muhammad biblical mythology that never actaully happened, and told him it really did take place.

 

[outhouse]

Do yourself a favour, educate yourself and learn to show evidence.

You don't have the education to talk down to me like that.

I actually do have the education, but I would never talk down to you, as its not polite.

You have no right to talk about evidence when you invoke the supernatural and have the gall to claim mythology is real.