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Origins of the Quran/Islam - various academic perspectives

Shad

Veteran Member
I don't really see what that has to do with history. We possess scriptures of various orogins. We can use our intelligence ( and perhaps more importantly conscience & heart ) to ascertain their truth.

It shows that such claims are useless as none have been verified, ever. They uses their own intelligence to create a set(s) of methodology which are reliable in order to create a conclusion which is factually true without the subjective "heart" or emotional arguments which show people can not always think rationally.

If you don't believe the Qur'an is true, fine! To say that historians have proved it not to be from God is tommyrot! :)

History does not count the supernatural as the supernatural has zero verification. That is a conclusion itself. Historians can believe in God if they wish but that view is not based on the same methods. Remember we are talking about methods used.

It's impossible to say that Abraham did not exist .. that Noah's flood did not take place etc.

Actually you can since the details of these stories does not match geological nor other historical records.


You might feel it highly unlikely and have found no evidence to substantiate .. but that is not proof beyond reasonable doubt.

Which all one needs to dismiss a claim. A lack of evidence and a reasonable doubt that these stories are mythology. Remember you are part of the group that claim X, Y and Z while having zero to show for it. All you are proposing is an argument from ignorance and god of the gaps.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
..Remember you are part of the group that claim X, Y and Z while having zero to show for it..

The fact that it might not be verified historically (ie. Noah's flood, parting of the Red sea etc. ) does NOT equate to "it's academic knowledge that the Bible/Qur'an is mythology"
 

Shad

Veteran Member
The fact that it might not be verified historically (ie. Noah's flood, parting of the Red sea etc. ) does NOT equate to "it's academic knowledge that the Bible/Qur'an is mythology"

Low plausibility is enough to form a conclusion that such events are mythological construct stories rather than events that happened. Keep in mind you did use the criteria of "academic knowledge" which has very strict parameters which allow one to make a valid conclusion which is considered correct until falsified.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
..Keep in mind you did use the criteria of "academic knowledge" which has very strict parameters which allow one to make a valid conclusion which is considered correct until falsified...

Me? You are the one who made the statement. Perhaps you should qualify it, and say that your conclusion was not beyond doubt. You might also like to quote wikipedia or other reliable source to back up your argument.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
The fact that it might not be verified historically (ie. Noah's flood, parting of the Red sea etc. ) does NOT equate to "it's academic knowledge that the Bible/Qur'an is mythology"

You are not understanding the words that we write.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE between a book being ALL mythology, and CONTAINING mythology.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Me? You are the one who made the statement. Perhaps you should qualify it, and say that your conclusion was not beyond doubt. You might also like to quote wikipedia or other reliable source to back up your argument.

Yes now if you understood the standards we are talking about you would realize according to these standards God does not exist since there is no method used to find human constructs claimed to be divine and those that are divine. God is not even a factor considered. Theology and philosophy develop ideas about God not history. You either accept the method or you do not. The method does not mean create a universal claim of ontology as it is has a specific criteria. You confuse a specific method as if it had application on every view. It doesn't.

Beyond a doubt is irrelevant as history does not deal in strict absolutes. Religion does. Is there reasonable doubt, yes considering the history of the region is covered in Christianity. There is a reasonable source of Islam's knowledge, the environment and humans. Now if Islam developed in South America all while talking about Jesus and Mose this would change everything. However it didn't.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Shad said:
Irrational is not about split personalities. I was pointing out that your argumentum ad populum is fallacious as no amount of people believing in something makes it true.

Mine or Isa? If Isa then it isn't. Christians outnumber Muslims thus Christianity is correct. Polytheists outnumbered Monotheists centuries ago thus monotheism is incorrect. Children believe in Santa Claus thus Santa Claus is real. If not just ignore my examples.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
I endorsed the point I coloured in magenta whoever wrote that point. Please
Regards
 
And we all know people FACTUALLY believe a lot of mythology.

its obvious muhammads cousin who was a christian priest who did not like orthodox christianity, and WROTE religious text in Arabic based on the bible, mirrors what the koran is to a T.

And traditions place this heretical priest and muhammad together on many occasions.

You have gone back to presenting unevidenced speculation as being close to certain.

You appear to be believing the mythology at this point. You are trying to have your cake and eat it by considering the tradition as a whole to be unreliable, but choosing it to be highly reliable whenever it suits an opinion that you have jumped to.

You have established that you are not making this judgement with recourse to analysis of scholarly enquiry, but based on a superficial glance at a few (probably anti-Islam) websites.

As such you present a crude and simplistic 'silver bullet' solution to a highly controversial, rapidly developing, and incredibly complex multi-disciplinary area of study.

The Quran clearly reflects the religious environment of the late antique Middle East, but trying to pin Waraqa as being this pivotal figure is just speculation. The earliest source for him, arguably, is during the time of Abd al-Malik.

If you keep berating others for 'refusing knowledge and academia', you really have to hold yourself to these standards also.

I have posted links to many scholarly articles in this thread that present a good cross-section of many issues in Western Islamic Studies:

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/academic-resources-for-early-islam.183021/

I have already provided you with a summary of what many of them think of 'your' theory (speculative and lacking evidence, unprovable and based on circular reasoning, etc.) I've also pointed out that some traditions have him as a Christian, others as a Jew and others as a Hanif. I also gave examples of why we shouldn't place too much confidence onto the '4 Hanifs' narratives as they seem to have been stripped of a larger historical context and relationship to groups of people that almost certainly existed, but have disappeared from the tradition.

Genuine scholars express their opinions with 10% of your confidence despite having 100 times more evidence that you do.

It really would do your understanding of the issue a world of good to have a look at some of them, as you don't really seem to know very much at all about the topic despite your stridency. It is this lack of knowledge that allows you to be so confident, the more you read, the more you will understand how much you don't know.

And if you don't wish to make the effort to learn, please can you start qualifying your statements about Waraqa as being highly speculative and very tentative.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
And you refuse to address the points in context.

There is a train of thoughts that are certainties and must first be agreed on.

#1 we have copied mythology and religious traditions. this is yes or no
 
And you refuse to address the points in context.

There is a train of thoughts that are certainties and must first be agreed on.

#1 we have copied mythology and religious traditions. this is yes or no

The answer to your question was in my post.

I've also answered it about 20 times previously, and provided you with links to 30+ articles on the topic, hardly a refusal to answer the question.

It contains things such as Biblical and para-Biblical traditions, Church orders, Christian folk tales, Midrashic teachings and commentary on these and other religious. The Islamic tradition even acknowledges it as a continuation of previous teachings and a 'correction/commentary' upon these.

It is the 'therefore Waraqa' which is based on circular reasoning and speculation.

You seem to have a desire to attack Islam which is clouding your judgement. I'm interested in what can be identified from the perspective of academic history rather than anti-Islam polemics.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
The answer to your question was in my post.

I've also answered it about 20 times previously, and provided you with links to 30+ articles on the topic, hardly a refusal to answer the question.

It contains things such as Biblical and para-Biblical traditions, Church orders, Christian folk tales, Midrashic teachings and commentary on these and other religious. The Islamic tradition even acknowledges it as a continuation of previous teachings and a 'correction/commentary' upon these.

It is the 'therefore Waraqa' which is based on circular reasoning and speculation.

You seem to have a desire to attack Islam which is clouding your judgement. I'm interested in what can be identified from the perspective of academic history rather than anti-Islam polemics.

And you still refuse to address the points in context. It is a yes or no question, no explanation is needed for your answer.

There is a train of thoughts that are certainties and must first be agreed on.

#1 we have copied mythology and religious traditions. this is yes or no
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The answer to your question was in my post.
I've also answered it about 20 times previously, and provided you with links to 30+ articles on the topic, hardly a refusal to answer the question.
It contains things such as Biblical and para-Biblical traditions, Church orders, Christian folk tales, Midrashic teachings and commentary on these and other religious. The Islamic tradition even acknowledges it as a continuation of previous teachings and a 'correction/commentary' upon these.
It is the 'therefore Waraqa' which is based on circular reasoning and speculation.
You seem to have a desire to attack Islam which is clouding your judgement. I'm interested in what can be identified from the perspective of academic history rather than anti-Islam polemics.
A very good argument.
Regards
 
And you still refuse to address the points in context. It is a yes or no question, no explanation is needed for your answer.

There is a train of thoughts that are certainties and must first be agreed on.

#1 we have copied mythology and religious traditions. this is yes or no

I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or if you just have very poor reading comprehension.

I have very clearly answered the question in context. You seem not to like the 'context' part of it though and want to reduce it to a 2 dimensional cartoon version of history. Your yes/no is a crude oversimplification, the contextualised answer is in my previous post.

This is probably because you haven't really read anything on the subject, so actually believe you are engaging in critical enquiry rather than oversimplification. This isn't as hominem, it's just necessary to point out what is causing you to keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

Your argument: 'copied', 'who copied from?' 'Waraqa!'

This is speculation based on circular reasoning. Perhaps without realising it, you are basing your argument on tradition and theology which is not really academic.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
you just have very poor reading comprehension.

Can you take your own advise? please answer the yes or no only question.


no explanation is needed for your answer.

There is a train of thoughts that are certainties and must first be agreed on.

#1 we have copied mythology and religious traditions. this is yes or no
 

outhouse

Atheistically
If you cannot agree on this simple yes or no question, there would be what we call communication problems, and no debate would be possible.
 
Can you take your own advise? please answer the yes or no only question

Again, your reading comprehension is lacking:

I have very clearly answered the question in context. You seem not to like the 'context' part of it though and want to reduce it to a 2 dimensional cartoon version of history. Your yes/no is a crude oversimplification, the contextualised answer is in my previous post.

If you cannot agree on this simple yes or no question, there would be what we call communication problems, and no debate would be possible.

If you insist on oversimplifying things to such a degree then indeed no debate will be possible. The communication problem is that you like to pretend your question hasn't been answered by ignoring the clear and complete answer given and the explanation about why your question is fundamentally flawed as regards the argument you are making.

You really shouldn't pretend that you are interested in academic knowledge when you very clearly are not.

You've clearly made your mind up that you have discovered a 'great truth' that has been missed by all of the world's leading scholars "it's Waraqa what done it!".

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but no need for the "pro-academia" shtick.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You've clearly made your mind up that you have discovered a 'great truth' that has been missed by all of the world's leading scholars "it's Waraqa what done it!".

That Is non sequitur, to you supplying a straight answer to a very simple question.

If you cannot answer a SIMPLE question, YOU are having a failure to communicate, not me.

please answer the yes or no only question.


no explanation is needed for your answer.

There is a train of thoughts that are certainties and must first be agreed on.

#1 we have copied mythology and religious traditions. this is yes or no

Why is it so hard to answer a simple question? is it because you don't like the truth?
 
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