Originally, where did original sin come from?

[sincerly]

Hi sincerly, my conclusion has not put Elohim as a liar. He is very patient and desires ALL to come to the Knowledge of the Truth and REPENT from their evil ways.

Now, please answer me. Are the 606 commands that are outside of the "Decalogue" sin if you break them? KB

Hi Ken, You may not think so, but the tenor of your posts is just that. Noah stated that GOD had waited 120 years for the repenting of their "thoughts being only evil continually" and Noah's Preaching only netted his family. The Ark was held another seven days before the door was closed and the waters began to arrive. Yes, they knew and were informed, but choose to disbelieve. They choose death/suicide rather than Obedience.

The answer is what do those 613 consist of and who prepared them?
Look up the list of the 613 Mitzvot( commandments) from Judaism 101 for answers and the source and as James stated, Acts15:10 AND JESUS IN MARK 7:1-13 AFFIRMED. (ALSO,JAMES1:13-15; 1JOHN 5:16-18)

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
...It was the choice of the carnal minded rather than of the "Spiritual minded" which had been deceived in Eve and and given into by Adam.

...it has never been GOD'S intentions for any to "perish, but for all to come to repentance".

The creation, man, wasn't "perfect" or "good" if he was carnal and had the ability to disobey. It is obvious we do have the ability to make good and bad choices. It is obvious we need laws to help control are worst inclinations. But, to think there was ever a time when "death" wasn't part of the plan? That's hard to believe.

Hi CG D, Again, the total picture/existance of what the BIBLE/SCRIPTURES are relating to us/the readers of the narrative of Truth Of the Creator GOD and HIS PLAN.----AND it was given within those pages for our admonition/best good.

His Creation initially was declared by GOD to be "Very Good". HE was satisfied with what HE had Created. Freedom of Choice, also, meant that the "creatures"/ones created understood the consequences of their choices.
NO, they had not experienced "death", but Adam had experienced the "Creation of Eve". She had not existed prior to that surgical procedure. And dust returning to dust could be witnessed by the very act of their feeding upon living vegetation.

That "carnal mind"/evil thinking was not a part of God's endowing mankind with in HIS CREATING MANKIND. That was imported by another created Being who used his power of choice for evil intents.

Remember that "rebellion" took place in another "Place"(not earth) and envolved a great number of "created beings". The Scriptures attest to a punishment being in store for them at the end of time. "DEATH" was the penalty and is still/remains to be carried out/executed/brought to pass/finished.
So, Yes, death is and has been in the picture of the overall plan.

Things grow and die. What was the original plan? To have babies and that they would reach maturity and never get any older? And, somehow, that makes sense to you? If the Bible is literally true then God caused a lot of people to perish. How hard would it have been for him to shower a few blessings on those people and at least get a few of them to repent?

CG D, All of our lives we have been bomb-barded with "get old and die". It is hard to accept the fact that eternal life was the purpose of creation and that for the "pleasure of the Creator".(Rev,4:12) That is still the goal which will be achieved when the redeemed will be ushered into the "Kingdom of GOD" ultimately.

NOT the first person has or will perish by the choice of GOD----ALL WHO PERISH WILL BE BY THEIR OWN CHOOSING. Why would one choose "death"?

And what about God's adversary? Where did the evil come from that got into him? Where did that original prideful, sinful thought come from? Was he created flawed? Did he have free will to choose between right and wrong? Like the rest of us, does he sometimes choose good? Does he have the ability to repent? If not, who hardened his heart? Who blinded him? If it was his sin, then who made the rules and defined what sin is? And then make creatures that would "love" sin and the darkness more than the light? Something is strange here, God did all the creating. If Jesus is God, then he created sin and the darkness and our inclination to sin. For what? To see if we'd turn to him and his loving kindness? It sounds messed up to me. I'll thank you in advance for your explanations. Thanks Sincerly for your time and patience.

Some answered above. The evil/thought came from his own choosing. and then acting upon it. NO, all the angels were created without flaws. He was NOT created a robot, but he was created beautiful and pride was from his own choosing. ---just as we can choose right actions or wrong actions. and those "rules/laws' governing ones behavior was given by the GOD of LOVE who knows what the opposite actions to those laws will bring about.
The GOD of LOVE who has abundantly give us humans time to "repent" would not go counter to HIS Proven Character of mercy and allowed repentance.
He hardened his own heart each time he refused to repent and obey. and he was blinded by his own pride and desire to be god and be greater than GOD.
GOD made the Laws. However, mankind choose not to obey those laws. GOD did do the creating, but it was HIS Creations who did the disobeying---choosing evil, darkness, and death, over Righteousnes, light, and eternal life.

Jesus is the Creator GOD(the SON) of all things with The Father, and the Holy Spirit.
The "inclination" to sin comes from with-in one's self as "lust"--and matures to SIN and death by the continuing to feed it.

 

[yoda89]

Chronologically the period within when the bible or what is defined as the new testament is believe to be published is long after the actual events. Unfortunately for believers in the this organized philosophy this shines a dark time over which the events could have been misinterpreted from actual events, Placing the paragraphs or passages claiming that man has original sin soon after its publication.

Mythically orginal sin came when the character Adam ate the Apple

 

[sincerly]

Chronologically the period within when the bible or what is defined as the new testament is believe to be published is long after the actual events. Unfortunately for believers in the this organized philosophy this shines a dark time over which the events could have been misinterpreted from actual events, Placing the paragraphs or passages claiming that man has original sin soon after its publication.

Mythically orginal sin came when the character Adam ate the Apple

Hi Yoda, Welcome to the forum debates of the Bible/Scriptures/Christianity.
You have acknowledged that "Atheism" is your choice of "religion" and you are welcome to that belief.

All I see in your response is supposition/conjecture. Those NT epistles were written/ or "published" to the peoples they were "sent to". Also, as confirmed by those "letters", they were meant to be kept and spread about for others to read and use as a guide for a correct relationship to other human Beings and to the Creator GOD.

Notice: Col.4:16, "And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the [epistle] from Laodicea."
Yes, those Epistles and "Gospels" were written a long time before they were compiled into one book and "Published on a printing press". However, that doesn't negate the fact that they were true in their messages as written.

Your---"is believe"; "shines a dark time over"; "could have been misinterpreted"; all are NOT FACTS, BUT your opinions.

The OT remains the base for the fulfilled written facts. The Scriptures affirm the truth of our ancestor(Adam) eating of the forbidden fruit.

 

[yoda89]

Hi Yoda, Welcome to the forum debates of the Bible/Scriptures/Christianity.
You have acknowledged that "Atheism" is your choice of "religion" and you are welcome to that belief.

All I see in your response is supposition/conjecture. Those NT epistles were written/ or "published" to the peoples they were "sent to". Also, as confirmed by those "letters", they were meant to be kept and spread about for others to read and use as a guide for a correct relationship to other human Beings and to the Creator GOD.

Notice: Col.4:16, "And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the [epistle] from Laodicea."
Yes, those Epistles and "Gospels" were written a long time before they were compiled into one book and "Published on a printing press". However, that doesn't negate the fact that they were true in their messages as written.

Your---"is believe"; "shines a dark time over"; "could have been misinterpreted"; all are NOT FACTS, BUT your opinions.

The OT remains the base for the fulfilled written facts. The Scriptures affirm the truth of our ancestor(Adam) eating of the forbidden fruit.

Thank you for welcoming me. You seem to be using quite a lot of quotation marks throughout your response. Kind of reminds me of Dr. Evil from the Austin Power movies. Would you clarify what they mean. It seems like sarcasm but that doesn't seem very Christian. I may be wrong you are the one who wrote it and I will apologize if they are not. Again, please clarify they are awfully distracting.

 

[sincerly]

Thank you for welcoming me. You seem to be using quite a lot of quotation marks throughout your response. Kind of reminds me of Dr. Evil from the Austin Power movies. Would you clarify what they mean. It seems like sarcasm but that doesn't seem very Christian. I may be wrong you are the one who wrote it and I will apologize if they are not. Again, please clarify they are awfully distracting.

Hi yoda, Quotation marks has to do with identifying that which another has said---therefore, from your remarks and from the Scriptures. Therefore, a clarifying function. "Sarcasm" was not the intent, and if "distracting"---that is your opinion.

 

[Ken Brown]

Hi Ken, You may not think so, but the tenor of your posts is just that. Noah stated that GOD had waited 120 years for the repenting of their "thoughts being only evil continually" and Noah's Preaching only netted his family. The Ark was held another seven days before the door was closed and the waters began to arrive. Yes, they knew and were informed, but choose to disbelieve. They choose death/suicide rather than Obedience.

The answer is what do those 613 consist of and who prepared them?
Look up the list of the 613 Mitzvot( commandments) from Judaism 101 for answers and the source and as James stated, Acts15:10 AND JESUS IN MARK 7:1-13 AFFIRMED. (ALSO,JAMES1:13-15; 1JOHN 5:16-18)

Hi sincerly, concerning Elohim's patience, you should also consider how a farmer works. A farmer puts in many long days before they see the result of their work, and there are different harvests. Elohim is harvesting, and the 1st One harvested was Yeshua...He IS the Firstfruit of those harvested, and those who are of the Elect, are also considered as a kind of Firstfruits. The harvest is THE entering INTO Eternal Life, and the majority of mankind will be harvested on the Eighth Great Day (John 7:37-38). So it will be that even of those who were disobedient in the time of Noah, or dwellers of Sodom & Gommorah, or Ninevah, will have opportunity to enter into Eternal Life, and be harvested on that Great Day, making Elohim's plan work to perfection. This physical life is but a short breath, and the fleshly desires that He created us with, is for our learning, to know good and evil, and ultimately, to choose the good in the RESURRECTION (Mark 6:11).

Concerning the 606 commands that are outside of the Decalogue, it was not James as you thought, but rather Peter that made the comment of Acts 15:10, James is the one who said/indicated that Jews were even more zealous in keeping ALL of those commands, and even the Oral law AFTER coming into belief in Yeshua (Acts 21:20-21).

And for you to use Yeshua in Mark 7 to affirm that those commandments were prepared by men is rather astonishing, considering what Yeshua said in v7-9:

Mar 7:7-9
(7) Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
(8) For laying aside the commandment of Elohim, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
(9) And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of Elohim, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Those whom He was speaking with held their own traditions in higher regard than the commandments of Elohim, and in no way can someone say that Yeshua was affirming that the commands of Elohim were prepared by men.

And what does James 1:13-15, and 1 John 5:16-18 have to do with whether or not the other 606 commands are sin in the same way as the Decalogue. When Elohim gave Moses the WHOLE Law, and commanded that we be strong and courageous to follow it, was it ONLY the Decalogue, or was it the WHOLE Book of the Law:

Jos 1:7-9
(7) Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.
(8) This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
(9) Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for Yahweh thy Elohim is with thee whithersoever thou goest.

Sincerly, re-evaluate everything you believe, especially in how ALL the commands of the Law are sin if you fail in keeping them. Remember, if you fail in just ONE command, it is like you broke the whole law. KB

 

[CG Didymus]

...for you (Sincerly) to use Yeshua in Mark 7 to affirm that those commandments were prepared by men is rather astonishing, considering what Yeshua said in v7-9:

Mar 7:7-9
(7) Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
(8) For laying aside the commandment of Elohim, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
(9) And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of Elohim, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Those whom He was speaking with held their own traditions in higher regard than the commandments of Elohim, and in no way can someone say that Yeshua was affirming that the commands of Elohim were prepared by men.

And what does James 1:13-15, and 1 John 5:16-18 have to do with whether or not the other 606 commands are sin in the same way as the Decalogue. When Elohim gave Moses the WHOLE Law, and commanded that we be strong and courageous to follow it, was it ONLY the Decalogue, or was it the WHOLE Book of the Law:

Jos 1:7-9
(7) Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.
(8) This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
(9) Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for Yahweh thy Elohim is with thee whithersoever thou goest.

To bring up laws vs. traditions of men is interesting. When we are talking about the original sin, what "laws" did God give to Adam? If all he knew was that he wasn't supposed to eat from the tree, then he was set up for failure. Why did God need to plant the trees in the middle of the garden? Why did God allow a tempting snake to be in the garden? Why did he curse Adam and Eve for failing the test? Why weren't they "disciplined" a little less severely and then given another chance? Especially, when the all-knowing God knew his creation would fail that test.

To agree with Investigate Truth and a Baha'i explanation, the whole creation story seems to be symbolic. The Law seems to be culturally and ethnically bound to ideas of ancient nomadic people. Who can live by them today? Stoned for collecting firewood on the Sabbath? Like the Baha'is say, each religion of the past moved people forward to a new level of understanding, and maybe it's time to move on.

However, to agree with evangelical Christians, humans are so messed up, they seem to need a Savior. We don't seem to be able to save ourselves. Like some Christians say, even if we could follow the Law perfectly, can the Law make us perfect? But, to think that God put together a whole book of Scriptures and Laws for the Jews and then changed the game on them? Why didn't He explain who he really is, a trinity. Why didn't He fully explain his plan of salvation, that he would send himself in the person of his own son to die for us? Why didn't He explain the role of the devil to them. Why did He even create a devil knowing that we'd listen way too much to him? So what's up with original sin? It's a pretty good Christian explanation of why the world is so screwed up. But was it ever a Jewish explanation? And, if it's not a Jewish concept then why would the one true God be so vague that the Jews didn't get it?

 

[sincerly]

Hi sincerly, concerning Elohim's patience, you should also consider how a farmer works. A farmer puts in many long days before they see the result of their work, and there are different harvests. Elohim is harvesting, and the 1st One harvested was Yeshua...He IS the Firstfruit of those harvested, and those who are of the Elect, are also considered as a kind of Firstfruits.

Hi Ken, again, your eisegesis is prominent. Yes, the Truths of GOD has been expounded since GOD made known HIS Plan of redemption to Adam and Eve in the Garden after the fall---via that "slain animal to clothe/ransom them from their penalty of death". Jesus was not a sinner that HE needed harvesting; however, in assuming the sins of all repentant persons from Adam to the last person to Accept HIS robe of righteousness, Jesus Christ was/is the propitiation and was Resurrected from the death on the Cross. HE freely laid HIS LIFE down and took it again. (John 10:18), "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."
Matt.27:50-54, shows the "first-fruits" of GOD'S long wait and the rest of the redeemed will follow at the second Coming of Jesus Christ.
BTW, Those who will be Resurrected are what GOD calls HIS Jewels---of all ages. (Mal.3:16-18) Yes, JESUS said those who are obedient are the Elect---the faithful servants.

The harvest is THE entering INTO Eternal Life, and the majority of mankind will be harvested on the Eighth Great Day (John 7:37-38). So it will be that even of those who were disobedient in the time of Noah, or dwellers of Sodom & Gommorah, or Ninevah, will have opportunity to enter into Eternal Life, and be harvested on that Great Day, making Elohim's plan work to perfection. This physical life is but a short breath, and the fleshly desires that He created us with, is for our learning, to know good and evil, and ultimately, to choose the good in the RESURRECTION (Mark 6:11).

More of your eisegesis, because there is no Scriptures which declare that the wicked or evil/unrepentant persons will ever be granted a place in the new earth.
Neither, is it scripturally correct that after one dies here and now that one will have a choice to change the decisions that were made prior to death(first death--physical). OR that someone else can make that decision for another person.

All will remain in the Grave/or as ashes here on earth until one of the two resurrections---of the Righteous or of the wicked/unrighteous(a thousand years apart).

John 7:37-38 is the same message Jesus taught to the woman at the well and those who came out of the village to "Hear". HE is the living water and one drinks of it during this life-time. A rejection during this life-time is an arrogant/defiant rejection by one who has the facts before him. (As the parable Jesus told in Luke16:19-31 affirms.)

Concerning the 606 commands that are outside of the Decalogue, it was not James as you thought, but rather Peter that made the comment of Acts 15:10, James is the one who said/indicated that Jews were even more zealous in keeping ALL of those commands, and even the Oral law AFTER coming into belief in Yeshua (Acts 21:20-21).

Yes, it was Peter who spoke in Acts 15:10, but James confirmed the message in vss.13-19.---That yoke was the "traditions and commandments of Men" which were placed upon them by the scribes and leaders.(as Jesus noted in Mark 7:1-13)

Acts21:20-21, only confirms that the "Jews" at Jerusalem didn't accept the "letter" which was sent to Antioch. Remember, that Jesus had not separated from the Synagogue and the record shows that the Disciple's continued with their teachings there even to the stoning of Stephen. (and the death of James)
What does Acts21:20-21 tell us? Those "zealous" ones were of the same mindset as the Jerusalem council had condemned. They were zealous of the very things Jesus crucifixion had "fulfilled"---plus those "customs" which were of Men and not of GOD(contrary to GOD'S teachings.)

And for you to use Yeshua in Mark 7 to affirm that those commandments were prepared by men is rather astonishing, considering what Yeshua said in v7-9:

Mar 7:7-9
(7) Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
(8) For laying aside the commandment of Elohim, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
(9) And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of Elohim, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Those whom He was speaking with held their own traditions in higher regard than the commandments of Elohim, and in no way can someone say that Yeshua was affirming that the commands of Elohim were prepared by men.

Ken, you need to re-read my statement. Your analysis/conclusion is faulty in my regards.

And what does James 1:13-15, and 1 John 5:16-18 have to do with whether or not the other 606 commands are sin in the same way as the Decalogue. When Elohim gave Moses the WHOLE Law, and commanded that we be strong and courageous to follow it, was it ONLY the Decalogue, or was it the WHOLE Book of the Law:

Jos 1:7-9
(7) Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.
(8) This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
(9) Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for Yahweh thy Elohim is with thee whithersoever thou goest.

Sincerly, re-evaluate everything you believe, especially in how ALL the commands of the Law are sin if you fail in keeping them. Remember, if you fail in just ONE command, it is like you broke the whole law. KB

When GOD gave Moses those total laws from Sinai they contained the Decalogue and the laws concerning the Sanctuary Services and all manner of ones life toward one another and that which is/was pleasing to GOD for rightful living.
The Messiah had not come NOR fulfilled those "laws" concerning HIM.

Ken, it is your posts which reveal who needs to re-evaluate their "belief" is contrast to the scriptures.
In regards those Laws, are you observing the Seventh Day Sabbath as GOD established or a man decreed day Holy? And from those general laws---what about the "dietary laws" seen in Lev.11 or Deut.14?

 

[Willamena]

According to some, originally original sin came from originality.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

According to some, originally original sin came from originality.

Are you saying that the originally, original sin originated from originality?

 

[Willamena]

Are you saying that the originally, original sin originated from originality?

Not precisely, only peripherally. The premise that is premier is the proliferation of the essential person.

 

[Awoon]

I've assumed so much. Doctrine after Christian doctrine seems to have very troubling origins. I read an article I found at Outreach Judaism by Rabbi Tovia Singer. It said, "The term "original sin" is unknown to the Jewish Scriptures, and the Church's teachings on this doctrine are antithetical to the core principles of the Torah and its prophets." What? Then where did it come from? In the article the rabbi goes on to say the funniest thing I've ever heard about how NT writers misquote the Hebrew Scriptures. This is regarding Paul misquoting Moses. "Employing unparalleled literary manipulation, however, Paul manages to conceal this vexing theological problem with a swipe of his well-worn eraser. In fact, Paul's innovative approach to biblical tampering was so stunning that it would set the standard of scriptural revisionism for future New Testament authors." Awesome!



The inerrant, infallible wikipedia said this, "The concept of original sin was first alluded to in the 2nd century by Irenaeus... Its scriptural foundation is based on the... teaching of Paul... (Romans 5:12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:22)." Later, it said, "The doctrine is not found in Judaism."
Hello? Who can I trust then? If I don't have a sin nature, why do I need Jesus to save me? If I don't have a sin nature, why does God need to send me to hell? If I don't have a sin nature, why did Christians tell me that I did? If for 4000 years of Biblical time, nobody knew this doctrine, why all of a sudden with the coming of Jesus, does it suddenly appear? If Christians made it up, then what else did they make up?

"Original sin" is the first time your parents told you NO, but you did it anyhow. No religion needed.

 

[sincerly]

"Original sin" is the first time your parents told you NO, but you did it anyhow. No religion needed.

Yes, An Authority figure did play a part in that true scenario.