Original Sin concept

[Moishe3rd]

IMHO - neither.
The sin of the Golden Calf was something that affected the Jewish People; the nation of Israel. It had many consequences, some that are with us today.
However, each Jewish individual is not "bound" into sin by the Chet Haegel; the sin of the Golden Calf.
The idea that we are born sinful and therefore need a "messiah" to "cleanse" our sins for us, is not a Jewish concept.
We are born pure and, it is up to us, in our struggle through Life, to maintain or return to that state of purity, as difficult as it may be.
G-d does reward and punish the Jewish Nation as a whole depending upon what the Jewish Nation as a whole actually does with their pure souls...

 

[Tumah]

IMHO - neither.
The sin of the Golden Calf was something that affected the Jewish People; the nation of Israel. It had many consequences, some that are with us today.
However, each Jewish individual is not "bound" into sin by the Chet Haegel; the sin of the Golden Calf.
The idea that we are born sinful and therefore need a "messiah" to "cleanse" our sins for us, is not a Jewish concept.
We are born pure and, it is up to us, in our struggle through Life, to maintain or return to that state of purity, as difficult as it may be.
G-d does reward and punish the Jewish Nation as a whole depending upon what the Jewish Nation as a whole actually does with their pure souls...

I think that's oversimplifying. The Gemara mentions that 4 died only because of the Cheit Binyomin, Amram, Yishai and Kilav. The bodies that we have today have to die because they have the taint of the Cheit in them. That's why even when Moshiach comes everyone who made it through still has to die, even though they will immediately come back to life. It could be that the Gemara means that those 4 should have never even had to get Nishikah because I think I saw that Moshe was able to purify his body and maintain it to a level before the Cheit. And then you have the 9 people who entered Gan
Eden alive.

Still, after the Cheit of Adam the Evil Inclination went from being an external element to an internal one. The Evil Inclination is given to the person right when he is born. That is the "inclination of the heart of a man is evil from his youth (Gen. 8:21)". The Good Inclination is only received at 12 or 13. So you can't say we are born pure, at least not physically. But that we have the inherent ability to nullify and control our evil inclination and purify ourselves.

But of course, I would never suggest that some Messiah needs to come and clean us.

 

[Moishe3rd]

I think that's oversimplifying. The Gemara mentions that 4 died only because of the Cheit Binyomin, Amram, Yishai and Kilav. The bodies that we have today have to die because they have the taint of the Cheit in them. That's why even when Moshiach comes everyone who made it through still has to die, even though they will immediately come back to life. It could be that the Gemara means that those 4 should have never even had to get Nishikah because I think I saw that Moshe was able to purify his body and maintain it to a level before the Cheit. And then you have the 9 people who entered Gan
Eden alive.

Still, after the Cheit of Adam the Evil Inclination went from being an external element to an internal one. The Evil Inclination is given to the person right when he is born. That is the "inclination of the heart of a man is evil from his youth (Gen. 8:21)". The Good Inclination is only received at 12 or 13. So you can't say we are born pure, at least not physically. But that we have the inherent ability to nullify and control our evil inclination and purify ourselves.

But of course, I would never suggest that some Messiah needs to come and clean us.

Fine. Except that you seem to be saying that the Yetzer Hora renders us impure or "sinful."
It doesn't.
The Evil Inclination, which is given to us by Hashem is not, indeed, "evil."
It is a tool that G-d has given to Man to enable us to exercise Free Will and to enable to reproduce and populate the Earth.
The yetzer hora places within the heart of Man that force which remains external in all the rest of G-d's Created Universe.
Everything in the Universe from a tree; to a mountain; to a bunny rabbit; to a galaxy; to a blade of grass - must overcome Obstacles in order to grow greater. Nothing in this Universe grows or changes without overcoming Obstacles.
Because we are designed to grow greater and more than Anything else in This World, Hashem places these Obstacles not only in our external life, but in our internal world.
This is not an "impurity." This is G-d's Blessing to Mankind that we should all be able to grow and prosper closer to G-d and His Plans for us.

 

[Tumah]

Fine. Except that you seem to be saying that the Yetzer Hora renders us impure or "sinful."
It doesn't.
The Evil Inclination, which is given to us by Hashem is not, indeed, "evil."
It is a tool that G-d has given to Man to enable us to exercise Free Will and to enable to reproduce and populate the Earth.
The yetzer hora places within the heart of Man that force which remains external in all the rest of G-d's Created Universe.
Everything in the Universe from a tree; to a mountain; to a bunny rabbit; to a galaxy; to a blade of grass - must overcome Obstacles in order to grow greater. Nothing in this Universe grows or changes without overcoming Obstacles.
Because we are designed to grow greater and more than Anything else in This World, Hashem places these Obstacles not only in our external life, but in our internal world.
This is not an "impurity." This is G-d's Blessing to Mankind that we should all be able to grow and prosper closer to G-d and His Plans for us.

This is not my term. It's called פסקא זוהמא. How else would you define that?

 

[Moishe3rd]

This is not my term. It's called פסקא זוהמא. How else would you define that?

It could be referred to as many things - paska would literally mean to "stop." Zumah could mean "the power of tumah;" "black magic;" "the urge to do bad..." It depends on the context in which this phrase appeared.
In any event, the phrase would indicate the Lessening (paska) of the tumah or impurity (zumah).

In any context, it would not be referring to "original sin" or the "evil urge" as being strengthened or as something that a person was born with...

 

[Tumah]

It could be referred to as many things - paska would literally mean to "stop." Zumah could mean "the power of tumah;" "black magic;" "the urge to do bad..." It depends on the context in which this phrase appeared.
In any event, the phrase would indicate the Lessening (paska) of the tumah or impurity (zumah).

In any context, it would not be referring to "original sin" or the "evil urge" as being strengthened or as something that a person was born with...

I know what the words mean. But what I meant was it says is Shabbos:
בשעה שבא נחש על חוה הטיל בה זוהמא ישראל שעמדו על הר סיני פסקה זוהמתן עובדי כוכבי' שלא עמדו על הר סיני לא פסקה זוהמתן
I can't find the source, it looks like it might be a Zohar, but I know that after the cheit ha'egel חזרה זוהמתן.

Since we're talking about the snake, we are talking about the Yetzer Hara. I understand that at this point, the Yetzer Hara went from being external to internal. Then at Har Sinai it went back to being external. But after the cheit it became internal again.

 

[Avi1001]

Hi Guys,

I believe this is the Chasidic DIR. Are either of you Chasidic Jews ? I think not. I believe you are both OJ's. In that case, if I understand the forum rules, you are only permitted to ask respectful questions. You are not permitted to make declarative statements.

Please correct me if I misunderstand the forum rules.

Sincerely,

-Avi

 

[Tumah]

Hi Guys,

I believe this is the Chasidic DIR. Are either of you Chasidic Jews ? I think not. I believe you are both OJ's. In that case, if I understand the forum rules, you are only permitted to ask respectful questions. You are not permitted to make declarative statements.

Please correct me if I misunderstand the forum rules.

Sincerely,

-Avi

Actually, my four grandparents are Ger, Munkacs, Kosov/Vizhnitz and Skolen. So I think that qualifies me.

Also, I would appreciate if you stopped following me around the forums with your snide comments. It's rather childish. I understand that you feel hurt especially when other also thought you wrong. And I'm sorry for that. But that is not a reason to go around looking for trouble. Try to understand that it is in the past and no else is even thinking about it. I don't even remember which thread it was anymore. Please try to move on.

 

[Sleeppy]

But of course, I would never suggest that some Messiah needs to come and clean us.

What is the Messiah coming to do? I thought the Messiah brought world peace, and eradicated evil, etc?