Original birth place of Islam and location of Kaaba was in Petra

[charlie sc]

I saw this interesting documentary on ITV the other day, where this historian spent most of his life in Arabia studying Islamic history. Interestingly, it seems the origin of Islam and the Kaaba is Petra, but it was moved to Mecca after a long war. The documentary can be seen here.
Interesting, and not to spoil too much, Muslims used to pray to Petra.

I am curious if any Muslims here know about this or believe in this? If not, why would it be so bad if Petra was the original birthplace of Islam, Muhammad’s domicile and the location of the Kaaba?

 

[Audie]

Same with "Jesus", nodody knows when, where, or what
were the circumstances of birth or death.

The Christians place vast significance on the
death-tale, so insist it must be so.

The birth story is similarly detailed, it is
obviously fanciful, but it can be quietly
overlook as a non-essential.

How Muslims would take to revisionist
talk, let alone action, who knows.

 

[Mindmaster]

Mecca used to be a pagan holy place, so the Muslims just did what the Christians did -- build their crap right on top of someone else's and destroyed those people holy shrines and images of their deities. Then they build their cube right on top of it...

 

[charlie sc]

Same with "Jesus", nodody knows when, where, or what
were the circumstances of birth or death.

The Christians place vast significance on the
death-tale, so insist it must be so.

The birth story is similarly detailed, it is
obviously fanciful, but it can be quietly
overlook as a non-essential.

How Muslims would take to revisionist
talk, let alone action, who knows.

Stubbornness is strong in the faithful.

 

[sooda]

I saw this interesting documentary on ITV the other day, where this historian spent most of his life in Arabia studying Islamic history. Interestingly, it seems the origin of Islam and the Kaaba is Petra, but it was moved to Mecca after a long war. The documentary can be seen here.
Interesting, and not to spoil too much, Muslims used to pray to Petra.

I am curious if any Muslims here know about this or believe in this? If not, why would it be so bad if Petra was the original birthplace of Islam, Muhammad’s domicile and the location of the Kaaba?

He's full of it. He never even went to KSA until the 1980s... and spent very little time there.

Evidently he never even heard of Madain Saleh.

 

[charlie sc]

Mecca used to be a pagan holy place, so the Muslims just did what the Christians did -- build their crap right on top of someone else's and destroyed those people holy shrines and images of their deities. Then they build their cube right on top of it...

Yeah but apparently it happened in Petra, not Mecca. Muhammad called Petra Becca. In Arabic, the words Becca and Mecca are identical except for a tiny curve difference in one of their dots

 

[Audie]

Stubbornness is strong in the faithful.

It seems to go beyond stubbornness.
Change is a existential threat, like a
hole in a dam, a cluster of cancer cells.
The first movement that starts a avalanche.

It is the deadly clue that all the fantasies of
faith could be swept away.

 

[charlie sc]

He's full of it. He never even went to KSA until the 1980s... and spent very little time there.

Evidently he never even heard of Madain Saleh.

Is this your way of saying he’s wrong?

 

[Augustus]

Interesting, and not to spoil too much, Muslims used to pray to Petra.

No they didn't. They prayed to Jerusalem for a bit, but not to Petra. This argument has more support among Christian apologists than it does among secular scholars.

A major flaw is that the qibla in early mosques was not precisely directed towards the Kaaba (or anywhere else) using advanced mathematical techniques, but by various heuristic methods (cardinal directions, position of sun, etc). This is supported by both the textual and archeological evidence of the period.

There was even a mosque in Samarkand that at one point Hanafis were praying West and Shaafis due East, which shows being overly precise a) wasn't a major concern, and b) was something there were different methods for establishing.

More precise measurements started being used alongside the traditional methods from around the 9th C.

So the argument is based on a flawed premise, and is made even more improbable by the fact that after 2 centuries there were too many different factions to be able to pull of such a revision without controversy.

 

[Augustus]

It seems to go beyond stubbornness.
Change is a existential threat, like a
hole in a dam, a cluster of cancer cells.
The first movement that starts a avalanche.

While this is often taken for a truism by the non-religious, it seems to be more based on assumptions about modern fundamentalism than the actual history of major religions.

Religions have been highly flexible, that's how they have survived so long in so many different circumstances. They have even been revolutionary at times.

 

[charlie sc]

No they didn't. They prayed to Jerusalem for a bit, but not to Petra. This argument has more support among Christian apologists than it does among secular scholars.

A major flaw is that the qibla in early mosques was not precisely directed towards the Kaaba (or anywhere else) using advanced mathematical techniques, but by various heuristic methods (cardinal directions, position of sun, etc). This is supported by both the textual and archeological evidence of the period.

There was even a mosque in Samarkand that at one point Hanafis were praying West and Shaafis due East, which shows being overly precise a) wasn't a major concern, and b) was something there were different methods for establishing.

More precise measurements started being used alongside the traditional methods from around the 9th C.

So the argument is based on a flawed premise, and is made even more improbable by the fact that after 2 centuries there were too many different factions to be able to pull of such a revision without controversy.

They explain this in the documentary. From what I recall, earlier Muslims prayed to Jerusalem. It was changed to Petra and stayed towards Petra until the end of the battle of Damascus. Then they were all changed to Mecca, except for the Islamic countries to the west, that pointed between Petra and Mecca(as a sort of compromise). Watch the document

 

[Augustus]

They explain this in the documentary. From what I recall, earlier Muslims prayed to Jerusalem. It was changed to Petra and stayed towards Petra until the end of the battle of Damascus. Then they were all changed to Mecca, except for the Islamic countries to the west, that pointed between Petra and Mecca(as a sort of compromise). Watch the document

If mosques were not directed at any particular place on Earth, but by using cardinal directions, or astronomically defined directions, how does this show they were aligned at Petra or 'between Mecca and Petra'? Accuracy was not important, which isn't surprising 7th C Arab tribes were not a particularly scholarly culture, hence the lack of written records from the 1st 2 centuries AH (Quran excluded). If the earliest Muslims didn't (and couldn't) use complex mathematical techniques, then this establishes traditional legitimacy for cardinal/astronomically derived qiblas even after the ability for greater precision was acquired with empire.

As an example, that is Samarkand where one group prayed south and the other west. Do they seem to be concerned with accurately focusing on a specific place?

I have little interest in watching a 90 minute documentary based on very dubious scholarship that has no degree of support from other scholars.

What points does it make that have you convinced?

 

[sooda]

If mosques were not directed at any particular place on Earth, but by using cardinal directions, or astronomically defined directions, how does this show they were aligned at Petra or 'between Mecca and Petra'? Accuracy was not important, which isn't surprising 7th C Arab tribes were not a particularly scholarly culture, hence the lack of written records from the 1st 2 centuries AH (Quran excluded). If the earliest Muslims didn't (and couldn't) use complex mathematical techniques, then this establishes traditional legitimacy for cardinal/astronomically derived qiblas even after the ability for greater precision was acquired with empire.

As an example, that is Samarkand where one group prayed south and the other west. Do they seem to be concerned with accurately focusing on a specific place?

I have little interest in watching a 90 minute documentary based on very dubious scholarship that has no degree of support from other scholars.

What points does it make that have you convinced?

Gibson's math is sloppy and he's far too vague on how much time he spent in Arabia.

Further, he never mentions Madain Saleh.. Of course he did die at age 50.

 

[Augustus]

Then they were all changed to Mecca, except for the Islamic countries to the west, that pointed between Petra and Mecca(as a sort of compromise).

Jacob of Edessa, (late 7th C), note the cardinal directions:

Your question is vain... for it is not to the south that the Jews pray, nor either do the Muslims (mhaggriiye). The Jews who live in Egypt, and also the Muslims there, as I saw with my own eyes and will now set out for you, prayed to the east, and still do, both peoples-the Jews towards Jerusalem and the Muslims towards the Ka'ba. And those Jews who are to the south of Jerusalem pray to the north; and those in the land of Babel, in J:Iira and in Ba~ra, pray to the west. And also the Muslims who are there pray to the west, towards the Ka'ba; and those who are to the south of the Ka'ba pray to the north, towards that place. So from all this that has been said, it is clear that it is not to the south that the Jews and Muslims here in the regions of Syria pray, but towards Jerusalem or the Ka'ba, the patriarchal places of their races.

 

[charlie sc]

If mosques were not directed at any particular place on Earth, but by using cardinal directions, or astronomically defined directions, how does this show they were aligned at Petra or 'between Mecca and Petra'? Accuracy was not important, which isn't surprising 7th C Arab tribes were not a particularly scholarly culture, hence the lack of written records from the 1st 2 centuries AH (Quran excluded). If the earliest Muslims didn't (and couldn't) use complex mathematical techniques, then this establishes traditional legitimacy for cardinal/astronomically derived qiblas even after the ability for greater precision was acquired with empire.

As an example, that is Samarkand where one group prayed south and the other west. Do they seem to be concerned with accurately focusing on a specific place?

I have little interest in watching a 90 minute documentary based on very dubious scholarship that has no degree of support from other scholars.

What points does it make that have you convinced?

Now, if that does not convince you and you think they were all, kinda, all over the place, then the description of Petra in the Quran and Hadiths describe Petra much more than Mecca. I can't explain the documentary better than it can nor the theory, and if you don't want to watch it, cool. Good talk

 

[sooda]

I saw this interesting documentary on ITV the other day, where this historian spent most of his life in Arabia studying Islamic history. Interestingly, it seems the origin of Islam and the Kaaba is Petra, but it was moved to Mecca after a long war. The documentary can be seen here.
Interesting, and not to spoil too much, Muslims used to pray to Petra.

I am curious if any Muslims here know about this or believe in this? If not, why would it be so bad if Petra was the original birthplace of Islam, Muhammad’s domicile and the location of the Kaaba?

There was a time when there were many Kaabas.


The Thamud: Petra and Madain Salih – The Muslim Times
https://themuslimtimes.info/.../11/the-thamud-petra-and-madain-salih
Dec 11, 2011 · Madain Salih or Dedan. Petra (located in Jordan) being the capital of the Nabataean kingdom. The Nabataeans are of Arab origin that became rich by their monopoly on the trade of incense and spice in particular between the East and the Roman, Greek and Egyptian empires. Madain Saleh has about 130 dwellings and tombs that extend over some 13...

 

[sooda]

 

[sooda]

Yeah but apparently it happened in Petra, not Mecca. Muhammad called Petra Becca. In Arabic, the words Becca and Mecca are identical except for a tiny curve difference in one of their dots

Like Becca Valley in Lebanon.

 

[charlie sc]

Like Becca Valley in Lebanon.

Interesting, so you are saying there were multiple Kaabas and there was no original?

 

[sooda]

Interesting, so you are saying there were multiple Kaabas and there was no original?

Yes .. there were multiple Kabaas. The Bedouin tribes had so many, many gods.. its impossible to keep track.. They usually carried their god around with them in a box on a litter.. and typically it was a meteorite or piece of a meteorite.

I think Dan Gibson was a liar and a con man. He spent very little time in Arabia..

For starters Mecca is only 40 miles from the coast.. from Jeddah ..