You seem to think that Moses' prediction of his own death was farfetched. History, however, records Julius Caesar as being warned by his holy advisors not to go to the senate that fateful day. Yet not only did he go; he also went without any of his palace guards. History records that he died; almost knowing that he was marked for death.
Jesus not only knew that he was going to die;but He knew when and how. He even knew before hand who would betray Him and identified the disciple, Judas. The amount of money for whcih Judas betrayed his Master was known in scripture. The mode of death that Judas would experience was also known in scripture even before Judas became a disciple of Jesus; yet despite the foreknowledge, Judas did exactly as the scripture had predicted; and he did it all of his own volition.
Jesus told Peter that he would deny Him not once but three times; and though Peter knew beforehand of the prediction; yet Peter indeed denied Jesus not once but exactly three times; and each time of his own volition.
Now do you think Moses' predicting his own death was farfetched?
What I am finding to be frustrating is that you seem to insist that I agree with you. All I asked was that you understand why citing scripture would not be sufficient to prove a historical argument to me.
But fine, here are examples:
1) Gen 1 says that God created the fish and birds on day 5 and the animals and humans on day 6. He created man and woman in His image at the same time, and blessed them and gave them dominion over the earth. And pronounced that creation was good before He rested.
Gen 2 says that God formed man out of dust and realized after the fact that "It is not good that man should be alone." So God creates all the birds and animals after He creates man. Only after He sees that the animals weren't good enough companions for Adam does God create woman out of Man's rib.
That your conclusions should be so contrary is not to be unexpected. In Genesis 1, during day 5, God created all the animals in the sea and on land. Verse 24 ..." And God said let the earth bring forth
the living creature after his kind..." This command is consistent with Genesis chapter 2:7 "
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground....and chapter 2:19 "
And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air ..."
Does it matter the order of the created things? It seems to you it does; but even if order matters the explanation of the created works of God as given in scripture was good enough for Pagan religions to borrow, to create their own version of how the creation came into being.
2) If God created Adam and Eve and they are the ancestors of all humans, then Adam, Eve and Cain are the only humans left alive when Cain kills Abel. So who is Cain afraid of when God banishes him from God's pressence? Who is it that he thinks is going to kill him? And who did he marry when he settled in Nod and sired Enoch?
If we were to follow your reasoning; just a few seconds transpired[the time it took to read the story of Adam's and Eve's creation; for Eve to conceive and bear two boys, who grew up in an instant, cultivating a field and rearing herds of sheep...with the eldest killing the youngest. You are right! You have crammed so much into a few seconds, that there is certainly not enough time for Cain to find a wife anywhere!
Somehow you need to see the error of your reasoning.
History doesn't always tell real time. it leaves it up to the reader to fill in the time that the Pharoahs lived; even given the fact that their memorabilia, the Pyramids still survives them all.
You could stretch the sublime to the ridiculous, by wondering how could Adam
"sleep and have sex with a woman created from his own body"....But if you knew the scripture then you would also know that it was normal fare back in those times for one to marry his next of kin. Abraham, for example, some ten or more generations removed from Adam; married his sister[same father diffferent mother].
It then isn't farfetched for Cain to have married his sister. It is also not farfetched to expect that between the time it took for the two boys to be born, girls could have been born to Adam and Eve. It is also a known fact that women in those times were hardly worth mentioning. Hence reference to their being available to Cain for wife is not to be unexpected.
3) When God tells Noah to take 7 of each clean beast and only 2 of each unclean beast, he never explains to Noah which ones are clean and which ones are unclean. But according to the sequence of events in the bible, no one should know what a clean animal is until after the Israelites leave Egypt. In fact, since Noah is PRE-Levitical covenant, the idea of clean and unclean makes no sense in this context.
It is amazing how humans, when it is convenient, will reason God out of existence; and also when it suits them will show how much more intelligent they are compared to God.
When the first Model "T" Ford motor car was built; it must have taken the motor car manufacturer some time to familiarize potential purchasers, with the features of the motor car and more importantly with how to drive the
"thing". It took some time; not only for people to learn to drive and repair the motor car; but some diehards refuse to surrender their horse and buggy for the "ironhorse" for this was ow the motor car was then called. Some challenged the motor car in races to determine who could go the fastest. Unthinkable! you may say; given what we now know.
Well don't you think that when God created the animals; and since He knew before hand that he would want man to sacrifice to Him, sheep, and not pigs...And since He only wanted sacrifices of clean animals; don't you think that if the human manufacturer of a "motor car" would go to such lengths to familiarize his purchaser with the "hows" of the motor car; that in the very least, God would have done a better job of familiarizing Adam and Eve as to which of the animals He had created would be "clean" and which were "unclean"?...And if it were that important for God to familiarize Adam and Eve with this knowledge; don't you think that Adam and Eve would have also ORALLY passed on this inportant knowledge to their sons and daughters, who also would pass on this knowledge to their sons and daughters; and on till Noah wold have known which animls were clean and which were not?
Cetrtainly; if Mr. Ford can be so wise, if he were to sell a single motor car; Shouldn't God be even wiser than Mr. Ford! if His planned redemption of man was to proceed as planned? Wouldn't He then have informed man as to how to effect His plan in the sacrificing of clean animals?
4) How is it that in Job, God speaks to Job from a whirlwind and demands "Who is this who darkens counsel without knowledge?" and then launches into a litany of the things that Job does not know. But then at the end of the story, he says to Job's friends that Job is the only one who has spoken rightly of God.
And you find this hard to fathom? Well think of someone with a surface knowledge of scripture; who was in first year of "scripture 101" and who then tries to reason with a philosopher of religion who has spent most of his adult life studying the scripture....And you will see Job as the one with a surface knowledge of Scripture, God as the Philosopher who spent most of His adult life studying the scripture
and Job's friends as members of the Hare Krishna movement unfamiliar in every detail with the holy bible. At the end of the story; who besides God had any knowledge about God and scripture...wouldn't it be Job?
5) Also in Job, Elihu appears on the scene out of nowhere, gives a long rant against Job, and then disappears. While God chastizes Job's three friends for criticizing Job and speaks well of Job, He never comments on Elihu's rant. It is as if Elihu were just inserted into the text.
I myself would compare Elihu to one whose comments were not worth responding to. If we can do it; Why wouldn't God!
6) The Wisdom Poem in Job (ch 28) is attributed to Job but directly contradicts everything that he's been saying.
7) Why is the story about Job, a non-Israelite, in the Bible in the first place? He lived in the East, in the land of Uz.
For the same reason Abram was called out of the Pagan land of his fathers by God.
Quote: (Originally Posted by precept)
Considering the multiplicity of the biblical stories; if any one of these stories was transmitted via oral tradition[which would without a doubt include embellishment and inconsistences], I have no doubt that yourself together with the many critics of scripture would have had no trouble in loudly exposing same.</B>
How about this? Since you claim that the bible is the only true word of God and that all other scriptures are oral tradition, and could easily be proven as such, why don't you try convincing a devout Muslim that the Qur'an was thrown together by oral tradition? Since you claim that it was, it obviously should be full of inconsistencies that any reasonable Muslim would not be able to deny when you point them out to him/her.
This is certainly the easiest of tasks, given the proper forum. The Quran is most rife with contradictions and numerous inconsistences. It would be with pleasure that I would document these inconsistences in the proper forum.
precept