Openly gay and Catholic

[Trailblazer]

This is the "I was just following orders" excuse.

I don't need an excuse for what I believe, nobody does.

 

[Subduction Zone]

This is the "I was just following orders" excuse. What happened to your Messenger? Usually you cite your Messenger, but now that's it's getting messy you go right for the top. But the Messenger is where the texts come from. You only believe that it's from God, remember? You could be mistaken, and following a fraud who is a bigot.

Or, if one wants to be generous, it only shows that her prophet had human failings as well and should not be worshipped as a God himself. And that prophet would probably agree with that. I do not remember any self aggrandizement coming from him, tough I could be mistaken.

 

[Truthseeker]

Man evolved, if you are going to claim God had anything to do with it the burden of proof is on you "logically speaking".

That's a figure of speech. God created the universe, and man evolved in the universe. So any creation of man was indirect. On another level God created man's soul is something we believe.

 

[Truthseeker]

Nope. If you cannot justify your beliefs they appear to be immoral laws.

Yes, they do to you, of course. We would expect nothing else from an atheist. That is not a judgment on you just a statement of fact. After all you don't believe in God, much less anyone being a spokesperson for him.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I'd love to, but I don't want to get in a debate with you, and I know that is where it would lead.

I'll just take that as you don't actually have an argument. Or any valid evidence outside your beliefs.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, they do to you, of course. We would expect nothing else from an atheist. That is not a judgment on you just a statement of fact. After all you don't believe in God, much less anyone being a spokesperson for him.

My beliefs are besides the point. You still need to be able to justify those laws. It appears that you cannot. That makes your supporting them unjustified and illogical to say the least.

 

[Truthseeker]

Right, the "I was only following orders" excuse. There i a reason why religious people who are bigoted against gays are repulsive to moral society, and that is because it is an unjustified bias. This is especially bad when it is religious people who use God as window dressing for their intolerance. Bahai isn't exactly thriving as a religion, is it? I suggest the bigotry against gays is a deal breaker for decent people with a sound moral compass.

That is what I call slander against the Baha'i Faith that I anticipated from Subduction Zone. No reason to answer you. It doesn't deserve an answer.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'll just take that as you don't actually have an argument. Or any valid evidence outside your beliefs.

Take it as you please. I gave you the reason which is the truth.
There is no such thing as evidence for this.... It is ALL a matter of personal opinion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is what I call slander against the Baha'i Faith that I anticipated from Subduction Zone. No reason to answer you. It doesn't deserve an answer.

Really? You have to be kidding me. I have never slandered your faith. I have demonstrated that it is flawed, as all faiths tend to be, but that is not slander.

 

[Truthseeker]

What an arrogant and presumptuous statement. Many on RF have examined and assessed what Baha'u'llah has written and the findings are that there are factual errors that science has discovered. The texts I have read are often long winded and rhetorical. They give advice but much of it requires accepting the basic claims it makes, which itself isn't convincing. Just my brief reading and what I have learned from others is enough of a disqualifier as being credible. There is no evidentiary reason to accept what Baha'u'llah wrote and claimed.

You would have to investigate fairly, as I just said, and even then biases that we all have have can get in the way. You need more than a brief reading to come to any sound conclusion. You also need to ponder the reading, not just skim over it. I will respond to you no more on this thread.

 

[Truthseeker]

Really? You have to be kidding me. I have never slandered your faith. I have demonstrated that it is flawed, as all faiths tend to be, but that is not slander.

Don't you remember that I said I anticipated that you would slander the Baha'i Faith? I didn't say you slandered the Baha'i Faith just now. I said I anticipated that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Don't you remember that I said I anticipated that you would slander the Baha'i Faith? I didn't say you slandered the Baha'i Faith just now. I said I anticipated that.

I saw that. Why would you ever think of that of me? Just because your faith can be shown to be wrong in some points is not slander.

 

[Truthseeker]

I saw that. Why would you ever think of that of me? Just because your faith can be shown to be wrong in some points is not slander.

I don't understand your reply. I already yesterday apologized for anticipating that you would slander.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't understand your reply. I already yesterday apologized for anticipating that you would slander.

Alright. And thank you for apologizing. It is more than most would do.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Health Risks of Gay Sex

• JOHN R. DIGGS, JR., M.D.

As a physician, it is my duty to assess behaviors for their impact on health and wellbeing. When something is beneficial, such as exercise, good nutrition, or adequate sleep, it is my duty to recommend it. Likewise, when something is harmful, such as smoking, overeating, alcohol or drug abuse, and homosexual sex, it is my duty to discourage it.

The Health Risks of Gay Sex

 

[Trailblazer]

1. Male Homosexual Behavior

Men having sex with other men leads to greater health risks than men having sex with women19 not only because of promiscuity but also because of the nature of sex among men. A British researcher summarizes the danger as follows:

"Male homosexual behaviour is not simply either 'active' or 'passive,' since penile-anal, mouth-penile, and hand-anal sexual contact is usual for both partners, and mouth-anal contact is not infrequent. . . . Mouth-anal contact is the reason for the relatively high incidence of diseases caused by bowel pathogens in male homosexuals. Trauma may encourage the entry of micro-organisms and thus lead to primary syphilitic lesions occurring in the anogenital area. . . . In addition to sodomy, trauma may be caused by foreign bodies, including stimulators of various kinds, penile adornments, and prostheses."20
Although the specific activities addressed below may be practiced by heterosexuals at times, homosexual men engage in these activities to a far greater extent.21

a. Anal-genital

Anal intercourse is the sine qua non of sex for many gay men.22 Yet human physiology makes it clear that the body was not designed to accommodate this activity. The rectum is significantly different from the vagina with regard to suitability for penetration by a penis. The vagina has natural lubricants and is supported by a network of muscles. It is composed of a mucus membrane with a multi-layer stratified squamous epithelium that allows it to endure friction without damage and to resist the immunological actions caused by semen and sperm. In comparison, the anus is a delicate mechanism of small muscles that comprise an "exit-only" passage. With repeated trauma, friction and stretching, the sphincter loses its tone and its ability to maintain a tight seal. Consequently, anal intercourse leads to leakage of fecal material that can easily become chronic.

The potential for injury is exacerbated by the fact that the intestine has only a single layer of cells separating it from highly vascular tissue, that is, blood. Therefore, any organisms that are introduced into the rectum have a much easier time establishing a foothold for infection than they would in a vagina. The single layer tissue cannot withstand the friction associated with penile penetration, resulting in traumas that expose both participants to blood, organisms in feces, and a mixing of bodily fluids.

Furthermore, ejaculate has components that are immunosuppressive. In the course of ordinary reproductive physiology, this allows the sperm to evade the immune defenses of the female. Rectal insemination of rabbits has shown that sperm impaired the immune defenses of the recipient.23 Semen may have a similar impact on humans.24

The end result is that the fragility of the anus and rectum, along with the immunosuppressive effect of ejaculate, make anal-genital intercourse a most efficient manner of transmitting HIV and other infections. The list of diseases found with extraordinary frequency among male homosexual practitioners as a result of anal intercourse is alarming:

Anal Cancer
Chlamydia trachomatis
Cryptosporidium
Giardia lamblia
Herpes simplex virus
Human immunodeficiency virus
Human papilloma virus
Isospora belli
Microsporidia
Gonorrhea
Viral hepatitis types B & C
Syphilis25

Sexual transmission of some of these diseases is so rare in the exclusively heterosexual population as to be virtually unknown. Others, while found among heterosexual and homosexual practitioners, are clearly predominated by those involved in homosexual activity. Syphilis, for example is found among heterosexual and homosexual practitioners. But in 1999, King County, Washington (Seattle), reported that 85 percent of syphilis cases were among self-identified homosexual practitioners.26 And as noted above, syphilis among homosexual men is now at epidemic levels in San Francisco.27

A 1988 CDC survey identified 21 percent of all Hepatitis B cases as being homosexually transmitted while 18 percent were heterosexually transmitted.28 Since homosexuals comprise such a small percent of the population (only 1-3 percent),29 they have a significantly higher rate of infection than heterosexuals.30

Anal intercourse also puts men at significant risk for anal cancer. Anal cancer is the result of infection with some subtypes of human papilloma virus (HPV), which are known viral carcinogens. Data as of 1989 showed the rates of anal cancer in male homosexual practitioners to be 10 times that of heterosexual males, and growing. 30 Thus, the prevalence of anal cancer among gay men is of great concern. For those with AIDS, the rates are doubled.31

Other physical problems associated with anal intercourse are:

hemorrhoids
anal fissures
anorectal trauma
retained foreign bodies.32
back

b. Oral-anal

There is an extremely high rate of parasitic and other intestinal infections documented among male homosexual practitioners because of oral-anal contact. In fact, there are so many infections that a syndrome called "the Gay Bowel" is described in the medical literature.33 "Gay bowel syndrome constitutes a group of conditions that occur among persons who practice unprotected anal intercourse, anilingus, or fellatio following anal intercourse."34

Although some women have been diagnosed with some of the gastrointestinal infections associated with "gay bowel," the vast preponderance of patients with these conditions are men who have sex with men.35

"Rimming" is the street name given to oralanal contact. It is because of this practice that intestinal parasites ordinarily found in the tropics are encountered in the bodies of American gay men. Combined with anal intercourse and other homosexual practices, "rimming" provides a rich opportunity for a variety of infections.

Men who have sex with men account for the lion's share of the increasing number of cases in America of sexually transmitted infections that are not generally spread through sexual contact. These diseases, with consequences that range from severe and even life-threatening to mere annoyances, include Hepatitis A,36 Giardia lamblia, Entamoeba histolytica,37 Epstein-Barr virus,38 Neisseria meningitides,39 Shigellosis, Salmonellosis, Pediculosis, scabies and Campylobacter.40

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) identified a 1991 outbreak of Hepatitis A in New York City, in which 78 percent of male respondents identified themselves as homosexual or bisexual.41While Hepatitis A can be transmitted by routes other than sexual, a preponderance of Hepatitis A is found in gay men in multiple states.42 Salmonella is rarely associated with sexual activity except among gay men who have oral-anal and oral-genital contact following anal intercourse.43 The most unsettling new discovery is the reported sexual transmission of typhoid. This water-borne disease, well known in the tropics, only infects 400 people each year in the United States, usually as a result of ingestion of contaminated food or water while abroad. But sexual transmission was diagnosed in Ohio in a series of male sex partners of one male who had traveled to Puerto Rico.44

In America, Human Herpes Virus 8 (called Herpes Type 8 or HHV-8) is a disease found exclusively among male homosexual practitioners. Researchers have long noted that men who contracted AIDS through homosexual behavior frequently developed a previously rare form of cancer called Kaposi's sarcoma. Men who contract HIV/AIDS through heterosexual sex or intravenous drug use rarely display this cancer. Recent studies confirm that Kaposi's sarcoma results from infection with HHV-8. The New England Journal of Medicine described one cohort in San Francisco where 38 percent of the men who admitted any homosexual contact within the previous five years tested positive for this virus while none of the exclusively heterosexual men tested positive. The study predicted that half of the men with both HIV and HHV-8 would develop the cancer within 10 years.45 The medical literature is currently unclear as to the precise types of sexual behavior that transmit HHV-8, but there is a suspicion that it may be transmitted via saliva.46

The Health Risks of Gay Sex

 

[Trailblazer]

2. Female Homosexual Behavior

Lesbians are also at higher risk for STDs and other health problems than heterosexuals.59 However, the health consequences of lesbianism are less well documented than for male homosexuals. This is partly because the devastation of AIDS has caused male homosexual activity to draw the lion's share of medical attention. But it is also because there are fewer lesbians than gay men,60 and there is no evidence that lesbians practice the same extremes of same-sex promiscuity as gay men. The lesser amount of medical data does not mean, however, that female homosexual behavior is without recognized pathology. Much of the pathology is associated with heterosexual activity by lesbians.

Among the difficulties in establishing the pathologies associated with lesbianism is the problem of defining who is a lesbian.61 Study after study documents that the overwhelming majority of self-described lesbians have had sex with men.62 Australian researchers at an STD clinic found that only 7 percent of their lesbian sample had never had sexual contact with a male.63

Not only did lesbians commonly have sex with men, but with lots of men. They were 4.5 times as likely as exclusively heterosexual controls to have had more than 50 lifetime male sex partners.64 Consequently, the lesbians' median number of male partners was twice that of exclusively heterosexual women.65 Lesbians were three to four times more likely than heterosexual women to have sex with men who were high-risk for HIV disease-homosexual, bisexual, or IV drug-abusing men.66 The study "demonstrates that WSW [women who have sex with women] are more likely than non- WSW to engage in recognized HIV risk behaviours such as IDU [intravenous drug use], sex work, sex with a bisexual man, and sex with a man who injects drugs, confirming previous reports."67

Bacterial vaginosis, Hepatitis B, Hepatitis C, heavy cigarette smoking, alcohol abuse, intravenous drug use, and prostitution were present in much higher proportions among female homosexual practitioners.68 Intravenous drug abuse was nearly six times as common in this group.69In one study of women who had sex only with women in the prior 12 months, 30 percent had bacterial vaginosis.70 Bacterial vaginosis is associated with higher risk for pelvic inflammatory disease and other sexually transmitted infections.71

In view of the record of lesbians having sex with many men, including gay men, and the increased incidence of intravenous drug use among lesbians, lesbians are not low risk for disease. Although researchers have only recently begun studying the transmission of STDs among lesbians, diseases such as "crabs," genital warts, chlamydia and herpes have been reported.72 Even women who have never had sex with men have been found to have HPV, trichomoniasis and anogenital warts.73

The Health Risks of Gay Sex

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

There is no such thing as evidence for this.... It is ALL a matter of personal opinion.

Oh, so you do have opinions (beliefs) on queerfolk, then. Also get a dictionary yourself, before you then say that there is "demonstrable harm" to being queer.

Absolutely bloody ridiculous.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

The Health Risks of Gay Sex

From the Catholic Education Resource Center. Oh yeah, this won't be biased at all.

not only because of promiscuity

A bigoted assumption. And yet, prove why promiscuity is harmful.

A British researcher

Citation needed.

Mouth-anal contact is the reason for the relatively high incidence of diseases caused by bowel pathogens in male homosexuals.

Citation needed. This is why it's important to wash yer arse, folks. Not to mention straight people do it too and it's not a "Must Do" for gay men.

Yet human physiology makes it clear that the body was not designed to accommodate this activity. The rectum is significantly different from the vagina with regard to suitability for penetration by a penis. The vagina has natural lubricants...

Yeah, that's why there's lube. Sometimes a necessity for "normal" sex as well, as there are myriad health conditions that can cause chronic vaginal dryness. And yet despite this clinical word salad above that can more-or-less be summarized as "it's icky and I don't like it", by sheer virtue of size alone the rectum is more accommodating to such actions, neverminding that - yet again - straight people do it too.

The potential for injury is exacerbated by the fact that the intestine has only a single layer of cells separating it from highly vascular tissue, that is, blood.

That's the small intestine. Large intestinal wall thicknesses vary, but are nowhere near "a single layer of cells". Rectal wall thicknesses are much more than that, and is the only area of the internal body that needs to be considered in this regard. If this preposterous claim had any validity to it, every single human alive with a healthy fiber diet would be at risk of intestinal tearing and subsequent health risks. Which, you know, does happen from time to time with abnormal obstructions, but is not inherently common due to our intestines being made of tissue.

The list of diseases found with extraordinary frequency

Again, citation needed. Given the fact that in any study it relies on self-reporting, no one's running around lifting skirts to check for the clap, I would love to know Anne Rompalo's method of coming to the conclusion that STI's have "extraordinary frequency" within the LGBT+ community compared to normies.

In fact, there are so many infections that a syndrome called "the Gay Bowel" is described in the medical literature.

Was a syndrome. In the 1970's. Loki's goat-strung *****, you might as well start calling female arousal "female hysteria" and prescribe to them medical, non-sexual and non-consensual masturbation.

REGARDLESS, wth all of these "studies" concerning male homosexual sexual activity, nothing indicates a heightened inherent risk over any other form of sexual contact. The exact same risks for infection, injury, or otherwise inconvenient to debilitating harm exist with "normal sex" when hygiene and safety are not taken into account, which is quite short-sightedly forgetting that sex is an act of intimacy between two consenting adults, and normal people do not engage in sex without taking hygiene and safety in mind. Because, y'know, normal people want their partners to enjoy it mutually.

Lesbians are also at higher risk for STDs and other health problems than heterosexuals.

Citation needed.

However, the health consequences of lesbianism are less well documented than for male homosexuals.

"Source: Trust me Bro"

But it is also because there are fewer lesbians than gay men,60 and there is no evidence that lesbians practice the same extremes of same-sex promiscuity as gay men.

Reeks of unscientific bias. "Maybe there are less lesbians than gays, but also we think that they probably have less wild sex than gays because reasons." Nevermind that the difference between reported lesbian and bi women and gay and bi men is 0.2%. A demographic made all the more difficult because, y'know, people like you make it dangerous to publicly identify as LGBT+.

Not only did lesbians commonly have sex with men, but with lots of men.

This alone should clearly illustrate to an unbiased eye how hideously biased and inefficient these studies have been for the last several decades, as well as why the Catholic Church of all institutions should not be conducting such studies.

And then it hilariously devolves to "They have crazy sex and smoke funny cigarettes, shooting up with shared needles and listening to that demonic Rock and Roll music!" Get a grip.

Counterpoints:

What Is the Risk of HIV From Vaginal Sex? - Very Well Health "The data on risk doesn't always explain factors that make some people more vulnerable. It doesn't consider how these factors cause HIV infection risk to be much higher than it is for other people." Takeaway: Risk is inherent in all forms of sex

Low Condom Use During Oral/Anal Sex Puts Heterosexuals at Risk - PatientCare "Both anal and oral sex have been linked to an increased risk of STD transmission in heterosexuals. Oral and anal sex can increase the risk of HIV transmission, as well as transmission of STDs such as chlamydia, gonorrhea, syphilis, herpes, and human papilloma virus (HPV) infection." Takeaway: It's not "gay sex" that is the problem, but basic sex education (you know, that thing Conservatives hate) and basic sexual hygiene and safety.

Heterosexual Anal Intercourse: A Neglected Risk Factor for HIV? - PubMed Central "While the increased risk of transmission through anal compared with vaginal intercourse (VI) has long been known, its contribution to HIV transmission at the population level has been insufficiently studied." Takeaway: Sexual studies are incomplete, inaccurate based on the nature of self-reporting intimate and private details, and heavily biased in scope of focus.

 

[F1fan]

That's a figure of speech. God created the universe, and man evolved in the universe. So any creation of man was indirect. On another level God created man's soul is something we believe.

No Gods are known to exist, nor is a reasonable claim to make about how the universe came about. But assuming a God did create the univese, and the laws you believe via your religion, then the God is accountable for humans existing as well. If humans evolved unintentionally then why would a God bother with rules?

Yes, they do to you, of course. We would expect nothing else from an atheist. That is not a judgment on you just a statement of fact. After all you don't believe in God, much less anyone being a spokesperson for him.

This is irrelevant since you have decided to follow Bahai as a religion and accept a rule that is immoral in modern society. The planet evolved morally beyond Bahai. The religion should just die off if the leadership refuses to adopt more tolerance. If you align yourself to this religion then you have obsolete moral, too. Atheists are more tolerant and open minded than your religion and its followers, so we can judge you.

That is what I call slander against the Baha'i Faith that I anticipated from Subduction Zone. No reason to answer you. It doesn't deserve an answer.

There is nothing slanderous about my statements. I'm citing the beliefs of you bahai that you follow a religion that is bigoted against gays. This is a fact, not a false statement against the religion. If you don't like that we non-Bahai are exposing the immorality of your religion then you should not talk about, or oppose the bigoted position of your religion.

You would have to investigate fairly, as I just said, and even then biases that we all have have can get in the way. You need more than a brief reading to come to any sound conclusion. You also need to ponder the reading, not just skim over it. I will respond to you no more on this thread.

Oddly you Bahai are not explaining what we are getting wrong. All you keep doing is citing that your laws are such and such. But I have asked if these rules/laws apply to those outside of Bahai, and the answer I got was NO. So we can't assume any authority in these rules/laws as you Bahai do. We critical thinkers have the freedom to assess these rules/laws for moral consistency and other vitures, and it fails.

So what exactly is not fair about how we assess your religion's rules/laws?

Don't you remember that I said I anticipated that you would slander the Baha'i Faith? I didn't say you slandered the Baha'i Faith just now. I said I anticipated that.

Well it's odd you accuse SZ and me of slander but don't articulate what we said that was NOT true. From what I see we both are referring to an immoral law that you believe is moral.