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On the Immorality of Trump's Border Wall

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
A 2009 Report by the Congressional Research Service cites evidence by which to conclude that Representative Nancy Pelosi is correct: the border wall that Trump desperately wants funding for in order to fulfill his campaign promise and for which he is "proud" to inflict immense pain on the entire country and economy -- first and foremost on hundreds of thousands of federal employees deprived of pay checks even while they continue to work -- is an "immorality".

Among the evidence and facts cited by the Report are that the 850 miles of border wall (or steel fence) existing in 2009:

(a) is ineffective at reducing the number of near-border apprehensions of illegal aliens, even while numerous proven methods of border security are employed such as increases in border patrol personnel, vehicle fleets, seismic sensors, night vision goggles, permanent and portable lighting, and helicopters (today less-expensive drones are used);

(b) is otherwise lacking a metric for measuring effectiveness;

(c) was and is enormously expensive to build and maintain (a later Congressional estimate was that maintenance would cost $50 billion over 25 years
In 2006, Democrats supported legislation to build border fence - The Boston Globe );

(d) is routinely breached at significant expense, as well as evaded by climbing or driving over with ramps, tunneling under, or using a different route;

(e) is horribly destructive to the environment and to threatened species;

(f) redirects those determined to enter illegally into more treacherous routes (e.g., over more rugged terrain or across the Rio Grande), thereby leading to more injury and deaths among these people; and

(g) leads to increases in crime in more remote areas where there is less available law enforcement.

Additionally, building a border wall in rural areas of Texas and reservations in Arizona will involve tendentious, time-consuming and expensive issues of land acquisition, for which, due to various complex historical circumstances, owners will not receive fair compensation.

Read the Report:

Border Security: Barriers Along the U.S. International Border

As noted on another thread, illegal immigration across the Southern border not only benefits the US economy, it precisely correlates with economic conditions. The sea-to-shining-sea wall that Trump promised would likely even deter the exiting of illegal aliens during those times when more such persons leave than enter the US. Thus, Trump's wall is not just an immorality, inspired by bigotry, it is stupid.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Most border patrol agents and border law enforcement officers working at the border do support a border security barrier.
The OP is only concerned with facts showing that Trump's promised border wall is an immorality, will be ineffective or lacking evidence of effectiveness, and contrary to the good of the country.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Most border patrol agents and border law enforcement officers working at the border do support a border security barrier. There's noting immoral about something making their jobs easier and safer.

Head Of Border Patrol Union Weighs In On Trump's Wall Plans

Border Patrol agents back Trump wall, survey finds

Also, your 2009 report about the effectiveness of border security is nearly 10 years out-dated. ..:eek:
Border Patrol agents convinced of the utility of their jobs -- or, at least, professing it? What a surprise.

Is it right to willingly harm innocent people?
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
The OP is only concerned with facts showing that Trump's promised border wall is an immorality, will be ineffective or lacking evidence of effectiveness, and contrary to the good of the country.

Rather than relying on a 10 year old report about the effectiveness of border barriers, how about we now get a new and more specific study done about the expected effectiveness of Trump's proposed extension of border fencing?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Rather than relying on a 10 year old report about the effectiveness of border barriers, how about we now get a new and more specific study done about the expected effectiveness of Trump's proposed extension of border fencing?
Link to it.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
A 2009 Report by the Congressional Research Service cites evidence by which to conclude that Representative Nancy Pelosi is correct: the border wall that Trump desperately wants funding for in order to fulfill his campaign promise and for which he is "proud" to inflict immense pain on the entire country and economy -- first and foremost on hundreds of thousands of federal employees deprived of pay checks even while they continue to work -- is an "immorality".

Among the evidence and facts cited by the Report are that the 850 miles of border wall (or steel fence) existing in 2009:

(a) is ineffective at reducing the number of near-border apprehensions of illegal aliens, even while numerous proven methods of border security are employed such as increases in border patrol personnel, vehicle fleets, seismic sensors, night vision goggles, permanent and portable lighting, and helicopters (today less-expensive drones are used);

(b) is otherwise lacking a metric for measuring effectiveness;

(c) was and is enormously expensive to build and maintain (a later Congressional estimate was that maintenance would cost $50 billion over 25 years
In 2006, Democrats supported legislation to build border fence - The Boston Globe );

(d) is routinely breached at significant expense, as well as evaded by climbing or driving over with ramps, tunneling under, or using a different route;

(e) is horribly destructive to the environment and to threatened species;

(f) redirects those determined to enter illegally into more treacherous routes (e.g., over more rugged terrain or across the Rio Grande), thereby leading to more injury and deaths among these people; and

(g) leads to increases in crime in more remote areas where there is less available law enforcement.

Additionally, building a border wall in rural areas of Texas and reservations in Arizona will involve tendentious, time-consuming and expensive issues of land acquisition, for which, due to various complex historical circumstances, owners will not receive fair compensation.

Read the Report:

Border Security: Barriers Along the U.S. International Border

As noted on another thread, illegal immigration across the Southern border not only benefits the US economy, it precisely correlates with economic conditions. The sea-to-shining-sea wall that Trump promised would likely even deter the exiting of illegal aliens during those times when more such persons leave than enter the US. Thus, Trump's wall is not just an immorality, inspired by bigotry, it is stupid.


Since 2001, 15 suspected terrorists have been apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border.
Most information reflecting such border-crossers are hidden in classified or protected government archives and intelligence databases; so these 15 terrorism-associated migrants, who traveled to our nation's southern border, likely represent a significant under-count.
According to the Center for Immigration Studies, which collected information from intelligence community sources with access to protected government information, there were at least 100 migrants between 2012 and 2017 from "countries of interest" at or en route to the southern border; these migrants matched the U.S. terrorism "watch lists" known as the Terrorist Identities Data-mart Environment (TIDE), or the Terrorist Screening Database (TSDB).
There could be many migrants associated with terrorists who crossed the land border, but these migrants linked to terrorism cannot be publicly reported.

Have Terrorists Crossed Our Border?

What's immoral about a border security barrier for preventing terrorists from trespassing across the U.S. border from Mexico?
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Border Patrol agents convinced of the utility of their jobs -- or, at least, professing it? What a surprise.

Is it right to willingly harm innocent people?

Since 2001, 15 suspected terrorists have been apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border.
Most information reflecting such border-crossers are hidden in classified or protected government archives and intelligence databases; so these 15 terrorism-associated migrants, who traveled to our nation's southern border, likely represent a significant under-count.
According to the Center for Immigration Studies, which collected information from intelligence community sources with access to protected government information, there were at least 100 migrants between 2012 and 2017 from "countries of interest" at or en route to the southern border; these migrants matched the U.S. terrorism "watch lists" known as the Terrorist Identities Data-mart Environment (TIDE), or the Terrorist Screening Database (TSDB).
There could be many migrants associated with terrorists who crossed the land border, but these migrants linked to terrorism cannot be publicly reported.

Have Terrorists Crossed Our Border?

Is it right to allow harmful terrorists to cross the open land border into the U.S. from Mexico?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Let me sum up the reason I consider Trump's Wall immoral.
He and his "base" supporters are attempting to change this nation of immigrants into Fortress America.
I don't want that, and obviously the American people don't want that. That's why we voted for someone else, and Trump couldn't get enough political traction to get Trump's Wall funded. Even when he had strong support on Capitol Hill, he didn't have enough support to get a piddling 5 billion.

Now, he doesn't even have that.

The USA is better than Trump and he is finding that out the hard expensive way.
Tom
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Let me sum up the reason I consider Trump's Wall immoral.
He and his "base" supporters are attempting to change this nation of immigrants into Fortress America.
I don't want that, and obviously the American people don't want that. That's why we voted for someone else, and Trump couldn't get enough political traction to get Trump's Wall funded. Even when he had strong support on Capitol Hill, he didn't have enough support to get a piddling 5 billion.

Now, he doesn't even have that.

The USA is better than Trump and he is finding that out the hard expensive way.
Tom

A simple extension of border fencing, which has been widely supported on a bi-partisan basis, isn't about Trump; it's about doing the right thing for our national security.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But the threat at the border is negligible. Reports of terrorists, invaders and killers are misleeding and overblown.
If actual terrorists wanted to enter the US there are plenty of less risky ways to get in.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...er-wall/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.23ab3577a9b2
FACT CHECK: Is ISIS on the U.S.-Mexican Border?
Homeland Security says terrorists haven't crossed U.S-Mexico border

There are plenty of threats to the health and safety of US citizens more significant than refugees from Latin America. Why aren't we up in arms about them?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
A simple extension of border fencing, which has been widely supported on a bi-partisan basis, isn't about Trump; it's about doing the right thing for our national security.
It's all about Trump.
That's why even the Republicans didn't support it for the last couple of years.
And support is continuing to erode over time.

America doesn't want Trump's Wall. So it can't get traction in the democratic branch of government, Capitol Hill.
Congress is representing The People, Trump is not.

Tom
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Rather than relying on a 10 year old report about the effectiveness of border barriers, how about we now get a new and more specific study done about the expected effectiveness of Trump's proposed extension of border fencing?
Link to it.

"Skeptics who believe a border wall will not stop illegals from entering the United States may want to look at what’s happening in Hungary.

On the day its border fence was completed, the influx of illegals entering Hungary went down from 6,353 one day to 870 the next. For the remainder of that month, illegal border crossings were steadily below 40 per day, officials said."

‘They don’t even try’: Hungary’s new border fence called ‘spectacular success’
 

TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
Don't forget Pelosi claimed Trump's border wall is a "manhood issue".
What's actually immoral is the hypocrisy of the Democrats concerning the wall they supported under Obama.

Hey Nancy, remember this?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Since 2001, 15 suspected terrorists have been apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border.

And how many have been stopped at other points of entry? 15 seems like a tiny number to me. In fact I'd say that the whole terrorism thing has been blown WAY out of proportion.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
And how many have been stopped at other points of entry? 15 seems like a tiny number to me. In fact I'd say that the whole terrorism thing has been blown WAY out of proportion.

According to a border security briefing received by the POTUS, just in one day last week, there were 133 people from countries other than Central America or Mexico whom border patrol agents apprehended.

 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Since 2001, 15 suspected terrorists have been apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border.
Most information reflecting such border-crossers are hidden in classified or protected government archives and intelligence databases; so these 15 terrorism-associated migrants, who traveled to our nation's southern border, likely represent a significant under-count.
According to the Center for Immigration Studies, which collected information from intelligence community sources with access to protected government information, there were at least 100 migrants between 2012 and 2017 from "countries of interest" at or en route to the southern border; these migrants matched the U.S. terrorism "watch lists" known as the Terrorist Identities Data-mart Environment (TIDE), or the Terrorist Screening Database (TSDB).
There could be many migrants associated with terrorists who crossed the land border, but these migrants linked to terrorism cannot be publicly reported.

Have Terrorists Crossed Our Border?

What's immoral about a border security barrier for preventing terrorists from trespassing across the U.S. border from Mexico?
Exactly I was going to make a similar post yet yours suffices nicely .

Prayer rugs have been found along the border and there's no doubt that terrorists are intermingling with the so-called "migrants".

Report: Terrorists from Taliban, ISIS sneak in with migrants

There is nothing inmoral about keeping these kind of people out.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
According to a border security briefing received by the POTUS, just in one day last week, there were 133 people from countries other than Central America or Mexico whom border patrol agents apprehended.


Wait, you were talking about terrorists.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Wait, you were talking about terrorists.

The guy from Pakistan could be. I know not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists do just happen to be from an Islamic country. Recently, there have been prayer rugs probably from Muslims near the border. Nowhere man beat me to the punch with pointing this out.

 
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