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On Rebirth

MaroonBlue&Gold

Eternal Student
Looking for further clarification on the following, please:

What evidence can we see of rebirth that is more than anecdotal?

What different life forms did the Buddha teach that the mind can take after death?

If there is no self then what is memory and why/how can it be passed on?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
What evidence can we see of rebirth that is more than anecdotal?

You can see rebirth through cause and effect relationship now. Say you have an addiction to candy. Even though you try mentally to divorce yourself from candy you still come back. That coming back is rebirth. It's a cycle. The only way to not be affected by the addiction is how one acts to divorce it's control on you. Once you do that you are in a neutral state of calmness not affected by cause and conditions. That's nibanna.

Rebirth is like coming back to addictions. Since nothing disappears our actions are carried on after our death because we are still attached or addicted to this world via our past actions. Once we do things to divorce our attachments we are no longer reborn.

There is no life after death on Dharma just a mental continuum affected by our actions until we aren't influenced by the negative affects of them. Once we have total nonaddiction, our mind is free. We die.


What different life forms did the Buddha teach that the mind can take after death?

He didn't teach different life forms. There are devas and goddesses etc but like aliens etc??

If there is no self then what is memory and why/how can it be passed on?

It's like having a dirty string. There is no string/self but because of the dirt we have the illusion there is one. When we no longer have addictions/no dirt we experience and observe from afar the absence of the string. When we get to that point we realize there is no self, we are free of delusions. There is no "it" to pass on. Nil.
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Looking for further clarification on the following, please:

What evidence can we see of rebirth that is more than anecdotal?

What different life forms did the Buddha teach that the mind can take after death?

If there is no self then what is memory and why/how can it be passed on?
The Buddha is silent.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Looking for further clarification on the following, please:

What evidence can we see of rebirth that is more than anecdotal?

What different life forms did the Buddha teach that the mind can take after death?

If there is no self then what is memory and why/how can it be passed on?
The Thirty-one Planes of Existence
My suspicion is that different aspects of our unconscious mind might be in the states described. (Our psyche can be in several planes at once. Stuff we repress is often in one of the hell realms.) It's up to us to dig through our mind and resolve our hang-ups, to individuate the repressed stuff.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
You can see rebirth through cause and effect relationship now. Say you have an addiction to candy. Even though you try mentally to divorce yourself from candy you still come back. That coming back is rebirth. It's a cycle. The only way to not be affected by the addiction is how one acts to divorce it's control on you. Once you do that you are in a neutral state of calmness not affected by cause and conditions. That's nibanna.
Equanimity (Upekkha)
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I wonder if people realize there is no such thing as rebirth or reincarnation in Buddhism? Shocking eh?

Especially when the premises are based on the skandhas .

I'm privy to a form of rebirth, yet, and in saying that, I also realize there is really no such thing to speak of. Maybe a couple dings of the bells would provide a fine experience.
 

MaroonBlue&Gold

Eternal Student
I think that is the confusion. I believe there are no permanent individual selves but there are temporary selves from our perspective or we would not be having our individual experience. I believe there are temporary everchanging physical bodies, astral bodies, mental bodies, soul bodies from our regular perspective on reality.

Reincarnation is a temporary everchanging soul body incarnating on lower planes for experiencing the good and bad and developing spiritual growth.

So, my key point is that we have a non-permanent individual soul that lasts until Liberation/Nirvana where the illusion of separate selves is transcended into the One consciousness that alone is real and permanent.

My thoughts above as a believer in reincarnation.
You're interpretation is the one that I've seen the most frequently with my study so far.

In my OP, I asked 'what different life forms..' - perhaps I should have said 'how many types of incarnations across all possible planes...'

In regards to memory, did the Buddha teach that an enlightened one can develop psychic powers, one of which is remembering your past lives?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Well that would be shocking if it were true. There is without a doubt a spectrum of thought among Buddhists on the subject. Even the Dalai Lama’s website has a section discussing reincarnation.

From my observation it is mostly western Buddhists with a materialist bent that eschew all things paranormal/supernatural like rebirth.
Not really. Look at Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's.

'Handbook for Mankind'

Buddhadasa Bhikkhu - Handbook for Mankind



Such talk has always been Hinduism in drag. That, and consider that reincarnation or rebirth both in concept and implementation remain empty in nature.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Well that would be shocking if it were true. There is without a doubt a spectrum of thought among Buddhists on the subject. Even the Dalai Lama’s website has a section discussing reincarnation.

From my observation it is mostly western Buddhists with a materialist bent that eschew all things paranormal/supernatural like rebirth.

No. A lot of Us believe in rebirth (supernatural, if you like), etc just other countries overlook that we actually have a spiritual side like other countries do. We are multicultural so a lot of "American Buddhist" or Dharmic Practitioners (no America back then) are singled out in monasteries and laymen depending on the area and who they know may help the monks as The Buddha advised of us laymen.

I never got where the "western culture" as negative came from. An American is just someone of US Citizenship. Those born and raised as Americans are a dime a dozen and those white and black whose historical built Americans are mixed between christian, African religions, muslim, and couple others.

If you asked us individually about our beliefs many aren't westernized. But generalizing as a whole all we eat is cheese burgers materialist, atheist, politician, none spiritual people is highly intuitive to us individually.

It's a pet peeve. I was told in China (and someone from there) told me there isn't really a religion there. I don't know about the rest of Western culture from in part eureopean and other western sides of the world but America is pretty supernatural based. Political and media is bad influence on who we are.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
In regards to life forms I would think the number is vast but the normal pattern for humans is to stay in the human realm for some time though.

I don’t know that the Buddha taught about masters remembering past lives but I think it is likely from the teachings of other sources. And I think masters develop psychic abilities.
Definitely not for your first sentence. Lord Brahma of Hinduism is under no obligation to provide you a human form and you could be put in any one of the 8,400,000 life forms. George, you are mixing Hinduism with Buddhism. Buddha said trying to know about the powers of enlightened people or the exact working of 'kamma' should never be undertaken. "Whoever speculates about these things would go mad and experience vexation."
Acinteyya (imponderable or incomprehensible), atakkāvacara avyākrita (beyond logical reasoning, beyond explanation)
Acintita Sutta: Unconjecturable, Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta: To Vacchagotta on Fire
https://www.quora.com/What-is-Acinteyya-in-Buddhism, Acinteyya - Wikipedia, Acinteyya - Wikipedia
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
You're interpretation is the one that I've seen the most frequently with my study so far.

In my OP, I asked 'what different life forms..' - perhaps I should have said 'how many types of incarnations across all possible planes...'
I don't think we can know for sure what is beyond our range to discern, so no answer could suffice.

In regards to memory, did the Buddha teach that an enlightened one can develop psychic powers, one of which is remembering your past lives?
Yes. You can find a list of the Siddhis in this sutta:
Kayagata-sati Sutta: Mindfulness Immersed in the Body
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Crossfire, my reading of Kayagata-sati Sutta (starting from #5) does not give me the usual meaning of powers as 'siddhis' in Hinduism. I do not think Buddha meant anything occult, supernatural. The mention is metaphorical.
Ten Benefits - Kayagata-sati Sutta: Mindfulness Immersed in the Body
Well yeah, one of the side effects of mindfulness practice, such as mindful walking, is the ability to trigger lucid dreaming, where you can take control of the dream. You can do anything you want to in a lucid dream, including all of the listed siddhis.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Do you mean Anima (making oneself as small as desired), garima (making oneself as heavy as desired), etc.? I do not think Buddha meant that. He was not into magic.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Do you mean Anima (making oneself as small as desired), garima (making oneself as heavy as desired), etc.? I do not think Buddha meant that. He was not into magic.
You can still do that in the context of a lucid dream, when you are asleep.
There are also suttas mentioning Buddha being followed by thousands of Devas, such as the devas listening in on this discourse between Buddha and his son Rahula:
Cula-Rahulovada Sutta: The Shorter Exposition to Rahula
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
You can still do that in the context of a lucid dream, when you are asleep.
Why should I do that, Crossfire? I am disenchanted even with the lucid dreams. They would only show that I am still bound. :D

"What do you think — whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect as a mode of feeling, a mode of perception, a mode of fabrication, or a mode of consciousness: Is it constant or inconstant?"
"Inconstant, lord."
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"
"Stressful, lord."
"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"
"No, lord."
"Seeing thus, Rahula, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye as a mode of feeling, a mode of perception, a mode of fabrication, or a mode of consciousness: With that, too, he grows disenchanted.

He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact at the intellect. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect as a mode of feeling, a mode of perception, a mode of fabrication, or a mode of consciousness: With that, too, he grows disenchanted. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is depleted, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

Cula-Rahulovada Sutta: The Shorter Exposition to Rahula
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Why should I do that, Crossfire? I am disenchanted even with the lucid dreams. They would only show that I am still bound. :D

"What do you think — whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect as a mode of feeling, a mode of perception, a mode of fabrication, or a mode of consciousness: Is it constant or inconstant?"
"Inconstant, lord."
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"
"Stressful, lord."
"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"
"No, lord."
"Seeing thus, Rahula, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye as a mode of feeling, a mode of perception, a mode of fabrication, or a mode of consciousness: With that, too, he grows disenchanted.

He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact at the intellect. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect as a mode of feeling, a mode of perception, a mode of fabrication, or a mode of consciousness: With that, too, he grows disenchanted. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is depleted, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

Cula-Rahulovada Sutta: The Shorter Exposition to Rahula
Even if you are disenchanted with lucid dreaming, mindfulness of body (walking, eating, etc,) will still trigger lucid dreaming.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
That way Hinduism tells me that the world is but an illusion. Sankara said "Brahma satyam, Jaganmithya .." (Brahman alone is truth, the world is falsehood).
Note: I do not take Brahman as God. How can I, being a desciple of Gautama, the Buddha? :)
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
That way Hinduism tells me that the world is but an illusion. Sankara said "Brahma satyam, Jaganmithya .." (Brahman alone is truth, the world is falsehood).
Note: I do not take Brahman as God. How can I, being a desciple of Gautama, the Buddha? :)
You do know that this is the Buddhism DIR?
 
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