Omniresponsible

[Pah]

I think you are holding God to a human measure. That's pointless. Who are you implying God is responsible to?

Regards,

Scott

There is a responsibility to the loved one when love is professed.

 

[Pah]

No, I mean, the Omni-anything God is considered to be not a part of the universe, ...

Omnipresent would contradict that thought.

 

[Super Universe]

In reply to post 81 by Super Universe(it was fairly long so I did not quote it).
I thought I was being respectful in my reply to your previous post. If I did not convey the respect I had intended, I apologize. Or perhaps you are just disrespectful to anyone who may have a different point of view than you. I am sorry I do not have your perfect wisdom to know anything about the universe, gravity, the sun or even my own planet. I guess it is a result of my being "small, immature, and completely selfish." What I do know is that one of my good friends died in a senseless motorcycle accident, his 17 year old son had died in a tragic car accident about 4 years ealier, my brother recently died suddenly from a heart attack, a young boy about four years of age in our small community has been battling cancer for the past year,
and other assorted sad stories. As far as my life, I have had a fairly good life so far. So I am not all about "Me! Me!" and more "Me".

Possessing an analytical personality I do need to think about small things like why bad things happen to good people. And I have to come to a conclusion that works for me or face the alternative of being very angry at God most of the time. I cannot accept that God wills bad things to happen so I do not totally agree with Kungfuzed. And I really am tired of having to apologize to people - Paul, Christians, or others like you - for focusing my attention on this world, where God saw fit to place me and where all in all I find a pretty nice place to be most of the time.

In spite of our differences of opinions, I respect your beliefs and hope they bring you peace and contentment. And I never eat ice cream before dinner. Along with being analytical I am a bit obsessive compulsive and have to eat my food in the proper order.

I wasn't being anymore disrespectful than you were. Except your target is God and I am here to defend Him.

Of all the people who have ever lived on this planet, now think carefully, which one lived forever?

By seeing only how a person died you are placing it above their life. It is not that a person died but that a person lived! Regardless of whether the creationists or evolutionists are correct, life exists! It is an incredible thing. 99% of the universe is hostile towards life yet we are here!

Do not remember that a person died, forget it. Instead remember a person who others felt, saw, and experienced, because only that is important. Other than energy, experience is the only lasting thing. Inside this amazing thing called experience is found so many incredible things: laughter, wisdom, frailty, honor, cowardness, fear, excitement, ego, humility, selfishness, caring... If you wish, I'm sure you can remember one or two good times you shared with your brother.

You are angry because you are hurt by your loss. It is difficult to understand that no one seems to be here for you. Everything seems fragile and temporary. It is because this dimension is a changing environment. Even the sun will change, even the galaxy.

This place is not intended to be a perfect paradise because that place already exists in heaven.

Sometimes I eat ice cream before dinner, but I never cry if I can't.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

99% of the universe is hostile towards life yet we are here!

Surely you have some proof to backup this statement. As far as I know the only place man has been outside of the earth is the moon. In the grand scheme of things we are still trying to chart and analyze via robots and satellites the planets and the various moons in our solar system.

This place is not intended to be a perfect paradise because that place already exists in heaven.

With that said all that said all you have is the words written in a book that such a place exist.

 

[Pah]

I wasn't being anymore disrespectful than you were. Except your target is God and I am here to defend Him.

Your god needs defending?

Of all the people who have ever lived on this planet, now think carefully, which one lived forever?

No one

...
It is an incredible thing. 99% of the universe is hostile towards life yet we are here!

That hardly supports your position of being incredible. One percent of the universe is one billion universes. You really think this is the only place, out of one billion, to foster life?

 

[Willamena]

Omnipresent would contradict that thought.

Depends on what "presence" is. And "the universe."

 

[Super Universe]

Surely you have some proof to backup this statement. As far as I know the only place man has been outside of the earth is the moon. In the grand scheme of things we are still trying to chart and analyze via robots and satellites the planets and the various moons in our solar system.

With that said all that said all you have is the words written in a book that such a place exist.

Proof that the universe is hostile towards life? Uh, yeah. Have you ever read about something called space? Temperature extremes, vacuum, hazardous radiation, lack of water and food, no air, and that's one of the safest places. Imagine Venus with it's extreme pressure and temperature and toxic gasses, or Jupiter.

Yes we went to the moon for a very short time but they had to wear pressure suits to go outside and they certainly could not survive there for long. Even today it's a logistics nightmare to try and sustain a colony on the moon.

All I have are words written in a book? That's more than you have.

 

[Super Universe]

Your god needs defending?

No one

That hardly supports your position of being incredible. One percent of the universe is one billion universes. You really think this is the only place, out of one billion, to foster life?

God needs defending? Nope. It's my choice.

Do I think the earth is the only place to foster life? Nope. But regardless of how plentiful life is, it's still incredible. Unless of course, you give yourself all the credit for yourself.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Proof that the universe is hostile towards life? Uh, yeah. Have you ever read about something called space? Temperature extremes, vacuum, hazardous radiation, lack of water and food, no air, and that's one of the safest places. Imagine Venus with it's extreme pressure and temperature and toxic gasses, or Jupiter.

All you have shown here is that these enviornments can not sustain human life. We are slowly discovering that planets such as mars could have sustained life. We still have our stellites in orbit and robots on the surface collecting data. As far as the universe is concerned it would not do us any good to speculate on that if we lack the technological know how to go beyond our own solar system. Speculating won't make it truth.

Look, you through that out there as if it was FACT (" 99% of the universe is hostile towards life yet we are here!"). Shucks, scientist believe it was because of the hostility and kaos life arose on the planet. So what are you saying?

The fact is we haven't gone beyond our solar system (physically). We have NO Proof of what is or what isn't out there (in the WHOLE Universe) so we can't throughout any old number like you want us to believe.

This is why I asked for proof. There isn't proof. Are there other worlds out there that can support human life? No one on the planet earth knows for sure.

All I have are words written in a book? That's more than you have.

Ok now....don't let this turn into some school yard fight.

The OP asked if "God" is responsible. My answer is yes. If "EVERYTHING" does not submit to God's will then, in my opinion, he does not have total control over his creation.

IMO, if God is omniscient as he is described then it is futile for me to do anything other than what I am doing. Surely all that I do is his will.

Can you wrap your mind around that?

 

[HB3]

IMO, if God is omniscient as he is described then it is futile for me to do anything other than what I am doing. Surely all that I do is his will.

Can you wrap your mind around that?

But what determines what you are doing? Does that not involve making decisions based on the best information or intuition you have? I don't perceive you to be one who gets daily messages from God telling you exactly what to do each day - I could be wrong. If I am, more power to you, just listen carefully. But if I am not wrong and you decide what actions you take in life, does this not define free will. IMO God's only will for people is to live the best life they can while doing good for others and themselves. I believe God is big enough to be OK with any belief system helps an individual do that . And if there is an afterlife, then God will take care of us when that time comes.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

But what determines what you are doing?

Me.

Does that not involve making decisions based on the best information or intuition you have?

Yes.

I don't perceive you to be one who gets daily messages from God telling you exactly what to do each day - I could be wrong.

I don't believe in gods

But if I am not wrong and you decide what actions you take in life, does this not define free will.

depends on your definition of free will. To some free will does not need or factor a god or belief in a god in order to have free will. To some free will is something a god gave us.

IMO, if "God" is omniscient and God is the "sole controller" of everything then there is no free will. If God created you and God knows your "destiny" then where is the free will?

How can you be judged if God already knows? In order for you to be judged by your actions, deeds, etc.... God wouldn't have known what you would do until you did it.

Concerning God, you believe you have free will because you lack the ability to know the outcome of your actions you take. But if God already knows each and every decision and path you will choose then where is the free will. Surely it is God who created the many paths and decisions you will make and take. If this isn't true then God is not as he/she/it has been described. (IMO).

 

[Super Universe]

All you have shown here is that these enviornments can not sustain human life. We are slowly discovering that planets such as mars could have sustained life. We still have our stellites in orbit and robots on the surface collecting data. As far as the universe is concerned it would not do us any good to speculate on that if we lack the technological know how to go beyond our own solar system. Speculating won't make it truth.

Look, you through that out there as if it was FACT (" 99% of the universe is hostile towards life yet we are here!"). Shucks, scientist believe it was because of the hostility and kaos life arose on the planet. So what are you saying?

The fact is we haven't gone beyond our solar system (physically). We have NO Proof of what is or what isn't out there (in the WHOLE Universe) so we can't throughout any old number like you want us to believe.

This is why I asked for proof. There isn't proof. Are there other worlds out there that can support human life? No one on the planet earth knows for sure.



Ok now....don't let this turn into some school yard fight.

The OP asked if "God" is responsible. My answer is yes. If "EVERYTHING" does not submit to God's will then, in my opinion, he does not have total control over his creation.

IMO, if God is omniscient as he is described then it is futile for me to do anything other than what I am doing. Surely all that I do is his will.

Can you wrap your mind around that?

People surprise me as much as they don't. I can't believe you are continuing this argument but nonetheless, here we are.

All I have shown is environments that cannot sustain life? That's because they are hostile towards it. 99.9% of the universe is empty space without gravity, without atmosphere, without food, water, and air. How is this even a debate?

What I am saying is that the rest of the sentient universe finds it quite hilarious that we purposely join with a human body and then turn around and ask, why am I here?

Life is not an accident, it's intentional. If it's not good enough for you, tough. You're options are to deal with it or cry about it.

We have no proof of what is out there? Uh, what do you think the scientists have been doing for hundreds of years with their telescopes and other equipment?

God is responsible for everything. It's His universe. But if you wish to define things to such a precise degree then you are responsible for a shoeless person in India, a hungry child in Peru, and a man who beats his children two houses down from yours.

 

[logician]

Boy that would be nice! Then I could stop doing all this prayer and going to Church stuff and do what I really want in life and become a hedonist. Honest, what I really want to do in life be lazy and get high and/or drunk; pleasure seeker. But I believe in a higher purpose/order/calling. I've been searching for this proof that you speak of so that I could give up on this belief of mine for many years now. But as far as I can see the existence or non existence of a benevolent God is beyond any sort of proof in every way but the most loose sense of the term. But since this is not the specific topic of this debate perhaps you might provide me with a link to the thread that presents this argument. For certainly if such a thing exists as proof that there is no benevolent God someone would have started a thread to enlighten the rest of us delusional God believers.

If a supposed god is either omnipotent or omniscient, it can make itself the other. A benevolent god that is omnipotent and omniscient would not allow needless suffering, yet we see much of that in our world for most all species. Therefore, an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent god cannot exist.

 

[Yerda]

If a supposed god is either omnipotent or omniscient, it can make itself the other. A benevolent god that is omnipotent and omniscient would not allow needless suffering, yet we see much of that in our world for most all species. Therefore, an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent god cannot exist.

I'm an atheist like you. I also believe that the problem of evil is a legitimate one, like you. However, it's worth keeping at the fore of your mind that this argument is generally fruitless. Many theists not only have different experience form yourself, but different understanding.

It seems to me that instead of quick-fire examples of logical problems (pending definitions) we'd be much better off getting to grips with the language used. A useful dialogue of what is good and bad for all (or as many as we can manage) might only be a few clarifications away.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

People surprise me as much as they don't. I can't believe you are continuing this argument but nonetheless, here we are.

Believe me....I'm not arguing. Just find your assumptions quite funny. You throw out this random....YES....RANDOM...percentage as if you actually have data to back this clame up.

All I have shown is environments that cannot sustain life?

Yes..... Your assumption is that 99.9% of the "Universe" is hostile....... Look I can see if you made the assumption that 99.9% (of what we have discovered so far) "seems" to not be able to support life.....But you didn't say that.... You stated it as if it was fact and that...(and at the present time and given we know) we can't be certain.

If you make this kind of statement then the burden of proof is on you because so far...from what I have seen, we HAVE NOT been able to chart the WHOLE universe.

That's because they are hostile towards it. 99.9% of the universe is empty space without gravity, without atmosphere, without food, water, and air. How is this even a debate?

hmmmm....It's debateable because scientist are not in agreement with you. Scientis haven't even unravelled the mysteries of our own solar system let alone the universe.

What I am saying is that the rest of the sentient universe finds it quite hilarious that we purposely join with a human body and then turn around and ask, why am I here?

Dude, you've been watching WAY....too much Star Trek Generations. What (in this world) are you talking about????

Life is not an accident, it's intentional.

Thus you have proof for what you assert?..?????

If it's not good enough for you, tough. You're options are to deal with it or cry about it.

I'm fine. Really, I am. I'm not crying about anything. It's not me that seems to be wrapped up in esoteric delusion.

We have no proof of what is out there?

Nope.....We have some great pictures and some wonderful theories but that infomation we do have is very very limited. Scientist are still collecting evidence and data from mars and data from various places throughout but to assume we know what is in the rest of the universe is foolish.

Uh, what do you think the scientists have been doing for hundreds of years with their telescopes and other equipment?

And yet none of this equipment has been able to search 99.9% of the universe

God is responsible for everything. It's His universe.

"God" as described to us from the bible is responsible. He said he was.

Now that we are off the science....

It was God who said he was responsible.

But if you wish to define things to such a precise degree then you are responsible for a shoeless person in India, a hungry child in Peru, and a man who beats his children two houses down from yours.

I'm not responsible. "God" is. How is it that I am responsible?

 

[Rolling_Stone]

It can be proven that an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent god cannot exist. Other god concepts are not worthy of worship.

This is a rationalist point of view? Suppose God is all those things and infinite. Perfection is intrinsic to infinity and the fullness of infinity can never be fully manifested in a spacetime univese.

Perhaps the eternity of God (assuming God exists) is time-transcending, not time everlasting. Time might be the movement between the birth of an idea and its fulfillment. (And one scientist did say that the stream of knowledge seems to be headed toward the understanding that the universe is more like a great thought than a great machine.) The fact the universe and life in it is still evolving certainly implies that creation is an ongoing process, and if so, you can hardly expect perfection in something that is, to us, incomplete.

Consider also that if a morally perfect, infinite, omniscient, omnipotent, benovelent and time-transcending God were to perceive evil as we do, the perceiving would itself validate the existence of something that in his mind has no basis in reality: perfection and infinity would be self-contradicting.

So, you ask, what makes God relevant to life as we know and experience it? If God is all those things, he is the Unity of Diversity and soverign. Perhaps, just perhaps, the function of religions of all kinds is to help us come to this or some similar understanding.

I'm not saying any of this is so. What I am saying is that maybe your idea of what can be proven to not exist by appealing to the "problem of evil" is just wrong.

 

[logician]

1.This is a rationalist point of view? Suppose God is all those things and infinite. Perfection is intrinsic to infinity and the fullness of infinity can never be fully manifested in a spacetime univese.

2.Perhaps the eternity of God (assuming God exists) is time-transcending, not time everlasting. Time might be the movement between the birth of an idea and its fulfillment. (And one scientist did say that the stream of knowledge seems to be headed toward the understanding that the universe is more like a great thought than a great machine.) The fact the universe and life in it is still evolving certainly implies that creation is an ongoing process, and if so, you can hardly expect perfection in something that is, to us, incomplete.

3.Consider also that if a morally perfect, infinite, omniscient, omnipotent, benovelent and time-transcending God were to perceive evil as we do, the perceiving would itself validate the existence of something that in his mind has no basis in reality: perfection and infinity would be self-contradicting.

4.So, you ask, what makes God relevant to life as we know and experience it? If God is all those things, he is the Unity of Diversity and soverign. Perhaps, just perhaps, the function of religions of all kinds is to help us come to this or some similar understanding.

5.I'm not saying any of this is so. What I am saying is that maybe your idea of what can be proven to not exist by appealing to the "problem of evil" is just wrong.

1. Ny statement is limited to our universe and the religious definition of good and evil.

2. I make no assumption that the universe, or matter and energy were created. MOre likely is that matter and energy are infinite.

3. An omnipotent god could perceive reality as we do.

4. History has proven that religion has been used as a means of social control, and as a means to gain power. "Ultimate" knowledge or reality do not seem to be big goals in
most religions I have been exposed to.

5. My statement is narrow and defined, in terms of what we view as evil and/or suffering. I'm not saying that a neutral or malevolent god cannot exist theoretically, but is this god worth of worship?

 

[logician]

1.This is a rationalist point of view? Suppose God is all those things and infinite. Perfection is intrinsic to infinity and the fullness of infinity can never be fully manifested in a spacetime univese.

2.Perhaps the eternity of God (assuming God exists) is time-transcending, not time everlasting. Time might be the movement between the birth of an idea and its fulfillment. (And one scientist did say that the stream of knowledge seems to be headed toward the understanding that the universe is more like a great thought than a great machine.) The fact the universe and life in it is still evolving certainly implies that creation is an ongoing process, and if so, you can hardly expect perfection in something that is, to us, incomplete.

3.Consider also that if a morally perfect, infinite, omniscient, omnipotent, benovelent and time-transcending God were to perceive evil as we do, the perceiving would itself validate the existence of something that in his mind has no basis in reality: perfection and infinity would be self-contradicting.

4.So, you ask, what makes God relevant to life as we know and experience it? If God is all those things, he is the Unity of Diversity and soverign. Perhaps, just perhaps, the function of religions of all kinds is to help us come to this or some similar understanding.

5.I'm not saying any of this is so. What I am saying is that maybe your idea of what can be proven to not exist by appealing to the "problem of evil" is just wrong.

1. Ny statement is limited to our universe and the religious definition of good and evil.

2. I make no assumption that the universe, or matter and energy were created. MOre likely is that matter and energy are infinite.

3. An omnipotent god could perceive reality as we do.

4. History has proven that religion has been used as a means of social control, and as a means to gain power. "Ultimate" knowledge or reality do not seem to be big goals in
most religions I have been exposed to.

5. My statement is narrow and defined, in terms of what we view as evil and/or suffering. I'm not saying that a neutral or malevolent god cannot exist theoretically, but is this god worth of worship?

 

[logician]

1.This is a rationalist point of view? Suppose God is all those things and infinite. Perfection is intrinsic to infinity and the fullness of infinity can never be fully manifested in a spacetime univese.

2.Perhaps the eternity of God (assuming God exists) is time-transcending, not time everlasting. Time might be the movement between the birth of an idea and its fulfillment. (And one scientist did say that the stream of knowledge seems to be headed toward the understanding that the universe is more like a great thought than a great machine.) The fact the universe and life in it is still evolving certainly implies that creation is an ongoing process, and if so, you can hardly expect perfection in something that is, to us, incomplete.

3.Consider also that if a morally perfect, infinite, omniscient, omnipotent, benovelent and time-transcending God were to perceive evil as we do, the perceiving would itself validate the existence of something that in his mind has no basis in reality: perfection and infinity would be self-contradicting.

4.So, you ask, what makes God relevant to life as we know and experience it? If God is all those things, he is the Unity of Diversity and soverign. Perhaps, just perhaps, the function of religions of all kinds is to help us come to this or some similar understanding.

5.I'm not saying any of this is so. What I am saying is that maybe your idea of what can be proven to not exist by appealing to the "problem of evil" is just wrong.

1. Ny statement is limited to our universe and the religious definition of good and evil.

2. I make no assumption that the universe, or matter and energy were created. MOre likely is that matter and energy are infinite.

3. An omnipotent god could perceive reality as we do.

4. History has proven that religion has been used as a means of social control, and as a means to gain power. "Ultimate" knowledge or reality do not seem to be big goals in
most religions I have been exposed to.

5. My statement is narrow and defined, in terms of what we view as evil and/or suffering. I'm not saying that a neutral or malevolent god cannot exist theoretically, but is this god worth of worship?