Objects and Magic

[Unveiled Artist]

Question

Im learning more about the spirits and family. I now know a nice Santero who is a good guide in knowing what "spells" (conjure? I havent asked their terms; it seems too common to term it). Yet, he is also the store manager; so, business is business??

We personally believe the incense we use say for protection, colors, etc are the actual magic that, like anything else, helps with whatever we use those items for.

My question. Given he is the store manager, and some things in metaphysical stores (this is a botanica store) seem, to put it honestly, fake...is there away that you guys can tell if what insense is for healing and protection? What is the logic or story behind it beyond the intent of the user?

I cant ask the Santero since his information is given to him by the orishas ans Im not a initiate into the faith to be given such knowledge.

How would you judge what he says is true?

Maybe an animist or someone with like beliefs as I do can help out?

Thanks

 

[Quintessence]

What you're talking about here is something that is commonly called "correspondences" within the various occult/magical communities. How correspondences are determined is something of a matter for debate, and also something that is poorly-addressed in most of the available literature. I have a small hatred in my heart for correspondence tables precisely because it is routine for them not to be documented or cited in any way. Correspondences can be influenced by or sourced from:

• The metaphysical model or worldview that person uses to explain the world around them
• The direct, personal experience of practitioners
• Folklore or mythology from a particular culture/religion

Because correspondence books and tables rarely bother to cite their sources, I'm often left thinking they are merely blind-faith compilations parroting other tables that have gone before (which are often equally sketchy in terms of their referencing).

So how do you tell if they are selling something "authentic," for lack of a better word? Personally, my answer to that question is to recognize that it's the wrong question. The right question is "will this work within the context of my own practice to enhance what I'm doing?" Develop your metaphysical foundation, and know what you want to do with your path. If my path is strongly Celtic, for example, I'll want to emphasize using correspondences that have a backing in Celtic folklore and possibly disregard correspondences coming out of other cultural traditions. Someone who has strong training in geology might use scientific information to inform their correspondences for gemstones and disregard folkloric associations. Basically, there should be a logic and a system behind however you do correspondences - if you do that, they will practically write themselves and you can ignore what other people think.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What you're talking about here is something that is commonly called "correspondences" within the various occult/magical communities. How correspondences are determined is something of a matter for debate, and also something that is poorly-addressed in most of the available literature. I have a small hatred in my heart for correspondence tables precisely because it is routine for them not to be documented or cited in any way. Correspondences can be influenced by or sourced from:

• The metaphysical model or worldview that person uses to explain the world around them
• The direct, personal experience of practitioners
• Folklore or mythology from a particular culture/religion

Because correspondence books and tables rarely bother to cite their sources, I'm often left thinking they are merely blind-faith compilations parroting other tables that have gone before (which are often equally sketchy in terms of their referencing).

So how do you tell if they are selling something "authentic," for lack of a better word? Personally, my answer to that question is to recognize that it's the wrong question. The right question is "will this work within the context of my own practice to enhance what I'm doing?" Develop your metaphysical foundation, and know what you want to do with your path. If my path is strongly Celtic, for example, I'll want to emphasize using correspondences that have a backing in Celtic folklore and possibly disregard correspondences coming out of other cultural traditions. Someone who has strong training in geology might use scientific information to inform their correspondences for gemstones and disregard folkloric associations. Basically, there should be a logic and a system behind however you do correspondences - if you do that, they will practically write themselves and you can ignore what other people think.

Thank you! I did give it consideration given my experience in magic did not mature until I went back into it and took it more seriously. His store is a mix between Catholic items, Santeria beads and other items related to the religion, basic candles and incense, and books which 90 percent are in Spanish, the 10 percent are either things like Wicca or one or two Catholic related books.

So how do you tell if they are selling something "authentic," for lack of a better word? Personally, my answer to that question is to recognize that it's the wrong question. The right question is "will this work within the context of my own practice to enhance what I'm doing?" Develop your metaphysical foundation, and know what you want to do with your path

This is definitely true. I would say many a lot of what he has in his store are focused more on the Santeria faith and initiates who are going into the field. Since its in the states, he also has metaphysical items and a few English books.

He was saying that white is purity and red is protection (correspondence). I asked him if it was just in the Santeria and Catholic faith. He says red is pretty much universal for protection. I had to think about this. I went to a Hindu temple and they tied a red yarn around my wrist so the goddesses they worshiped would bless and protect me. In Japan, I read, red is a color for luck while in the states it has a negative connotation.

I do go by what feels comfortable; however, I am also a community type of person. So, cultural norms and things of that nature that I would want to incorporate in my practice, I'd want to make sure it is logical and legit to that culture and have the respect of those practitioners to use whatever it is they are "selling."

As for correspondence, I haven't looked too much into it. I am put off by the modern correspondences in the metaphysical stores I've gone to.

That is a good thread topic: the nature of correspondences. I wouldn't know how to phrase the conversation. Its an interesting topic nonetheless.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't usually like saying this about anything, but someone who tells you that color correspondences are universal is just plain wrong. Color symbolism is well-known to be culturally-specific and individually-specific. Correspondences in general are like that.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

I don't usually like saying this about anything, but someone who tells you that color correspondences are universal is just plain wrong. Color symbolism is well-known to be culturally-specific and individually-specific. Correspondences in general are like that.

Incorrect, it has been shown that certain colors produce a certain chemical responses, but not to the degree that color symbolist claim.

 

[Quintessence]

Incorrect, it has been shown that certain colors produce a certain chemical responses, but not to the degree that color symbolist claim.

I'd like to remind you that you just posted in a DIR that I'm pretty sure you're not a member of. You should be within the window to delete/edit your post.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

I'd like to remind you that you just posted in a DIR that I'm pretty sure you're not a member of. You should be within the window to delete/edit your post.

Wait, who can post in this DIR?

Magic is not a group or a religion.

Im pretty confused.

 

[Quintessence]

Wait, who can post in this DIR?

Magic is not a group or a religion.

Im pretty confused.

The magic DIR is basically a space for people who practice magic to discuss magic. You're right it's not a group or religion - it's one of the weirdo DIRs. Magical practices are found in many religions, so basically anyone of any religion (or irreligion) who practices is welcome to contribute here. Otherwise, folks should use respectful questions. Did that clear it up?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

The magic DIR is basically a space for people who practice magic to discuss magic. You're right it's not a group or religion - it's one of the weirdo DIRs. Magical practices are found in many religions, so basically anyone of any religion (or irreligion) who practices is welcome to contribute here. Otherwise, folks should use respectful questions. Did that clear it up?

Sure I will not post anymore.

But wouldn't answering the question be conductive?

 

[buddhist]

IMO the real power behind various objects, spells, or sigils is essentially in the collective conscious intent of the user, and of past users, combined together. Take for instance, the spell "Jesus" and its efficacy against various evils by those who wield it properly.

That's not to say that a single user cannot go against the intent of a collective. The magic of a single, extremely strong conscious intelligence, can potentially countermand the combined magic of multiple lesser intelligences.

So, I would both consider an object's collective usage, as well as my intent and strength to wield it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't usually like saying this about anything, but someone who tells you that color correspondences are universal is just plain wrong. Color symbolism is well-known to be culturally-specific and individually-specific. Correspondences in general are like that.

That would make sense. He gave me this look like "everyone knows this." I interpreted as somewhat saying "everyone knows god exist!" It was a honest gesture. I met another Santera who never heard of Christianity at all.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I can understand that. In this case, the intent and the magic of the item (etc) is combined. For example, the Orisha Yamaya has her own handmade statue. A santera/o cant go to the statue and "will or intend" the spirit of Yemaya into the statue. The physical actions as well as the intent pulls down their chosen Orisha into the statue representing her. Once that is done, the Orisha statue protects the initiate's head.

I think that is what many people (many modern) have trouble seeing is that other cultural religions do see the objects etc as part of the intent. Its not correspondence as in "I use red to symbolize love." The color red IS love. (or in the santero's case, protection). Its a different point of view on magic I don't see expressed often because those part of cultural faiths do not usually share publicly their spiritual worldview outside "general conversations" like I had in the store.

@buddhist

With the intent/object in mind, I wonder if what he says is legit given he is also a business manager. The store has a "two way" since to it. The modern/western atmosphere and the Cuban (I think he is from), Catholic, Lucumi atmosphere. Its hard to tell what is what unless one is part of that culture and/or religion.

 

[lovesong]

some things in metaphysical stores (this is a botanica store) seem, to put it honestly, fake...is there away that you guys can tell if what insense is for healing and protection?

Personally I never trust incense unless the package clearly says its made with specific plants or I talk to the person who makes it to assure that it's really made with certain things rather than artificial scents. I personally believe that all natural things have a specific energy regardless of personal interpretations, so intent means very little and actual ingredients are everything. A more visual example of this is how blue and yellow make green, and no amount of personal intent or will can cause them to make purple. This is why I don't trust pre-made incense unless I can verify that its ingredients are real. I do love using "fake" incense in rituals, just not for the ingredients it's named after. I use the smoke in some rituals and in others I use the smell to get me in the right mindset. Incense can be a great tool when it's made of real plants, but as for the "fake" stuff, my advise is to just use it as a mood setter or a smoke producer.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Personally I never trust incense unless the package clearly says its made with specific plants or I talk to the person who makes it to assure that it's really made with certain things rather than artificial scents. I personally believe that all natural things have a specific energy regardless of personal interpretations, so intent means very little and actually ingredients are everything. A more visual example of this is how blue and yellow make green, and no amount of personal intent or will can cause them to make purple. This is why I don't trust pre-made incense unless I can verify that its ingredients are real. I do love using "fake" incense in rituals, just not for the ingredients it's named after. I use the smoke in some rituals and in others I use the smell to get me in the right mindset. Incense can be a great tool when it's made of real plants, but as for the "fake" stuff, my advise is to just use it as a mood setter or a smoke producer.

I agred 100 percent. Im teaching myself how to make herb oils and things of that nature. I know one can burn herbs like incense but I never tried it and we cant have candles where I live (dont say anything ) I use votive candles but I buy them at the dollar store. Plants, oilsz baths, etc I rather get natual.

Thanks.

(I read fast. )

 

[lovesong]

I agred 100 percent. Im teaching myself how to make herb oils and things of that nature. I know one can burn herbs like incense but I never tried it and we cant have candles where I live (dont say anything ) I use votive candles but I buy them at the dollar store. Plants, oilsz baths, etc I rather get natual.

I can't have candles, or any burning thing, in my dorm room so I understand that struggle completely. I use candles, incense smoke, or some burning object in almost every ritual since burning is my preferred way of giving offering/sacrifice. I've made the switch to casting my offerings into the wind and using a battery operated candle, but there's just no replacement for smoke, unfortunately. As for burning herbs as incense, I never really figured this out either and even have trouble getting the smudge sticks I make to burn right! I can get them to burn, but can't seem to get a good smoke trail going. It's cool that you're making oils, if you figure out a good, easy way to make oils or incense, pass the knowledge along! I always wanted to be able to produce my own oils and incense but I don't have time to test a bunch of methods or the money and space to use fancy equipment.

 

[Quintessence]

Making your own incense isn't that hard nor expensive. All you have to do is go to your local co-op where they have bulk herbs, by some stuff, mix it together, and burn it in a self-igniting charcoal block (those blocks can be somewhat more difficult to find, granted).

For oils, I wouldn't bother trying your own extraction considering the quantity of plant material you need to do it.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

He was saying that white is purity and red is protection (correspondence). I asked him if it was just in the Santeria and Catholic faith. He says red is pretty much universal for protection. I had to think about this. I went to a Hindu temple and they tied a red yarn around my wrist so the goddesses they worshiped would bless and protect me. In Japan, I read, red is a color for luck while in the states it has a negative connotation.

Colour correspondences are more general, as we respond to it physically.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/colour.html

Most correspondences, however, are more of the "that works for me" type. The Chaos magicians argue that any system will work, provided you believe in it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Colour correspondences are more general, as we respond to it physically.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/colour.html

Most correspondences, however, are more of the "that works for me" type. The Chaos magicians argue that any system will work, provided you believe in it.

That makes sense. The similarities some colors have in different areas and religions seem to have cultural interpretations of how the correspondences relate to their worship. From what I read, white in European countries means purity while red in China is for blessings. Red and black are negative in the states (probably same with Europe). I wouldnt be surprised if black was used opposite outside of the states..

I find correspondences work for me when they are attached to a heritage of meaning. The "ancestry" of a given object and correspondence. The spirit in the objects used "feel" better than my going to Bed, Bath, and Beyond to find an expensive candle not made from nature.

The store manager has over a hundred different types pock oils. Each marketed for a specifc goal: protection, etc.

Its useful when depending on ones prayer and using the oil with the prayer. It seems empty of what spirit it has in it to really work with it beyond ritual and prayer.

Many oils are made from plant oils etc. Maybe the fraguence and die in those oils to make it attractive is whats throwing me off.