Objections against Buddhism

[vijeno]

i think Stephen Batchelor's way of doing Buddhism may appeal to you.

I read Batchelor. I really like a lot of what he has to say. In a way, this is just about labels, I could just as well call myself a buddhist if I really wanted to, which is precisely one reason why I don't do it, because... well.. why put another useless label on my forehead? Just to proudly belong to some more or less virtual community? Nah...

I would like to add another, more general thought: I think that "westernized" mainstream buddhism has a huge publicity issue (if we forget the Dalai Lama fandom for a while, which I really, REALLY cannot take seriously as a form of buddhism).

The problem is: It appeals mostly to a higly educated, probably intelligent audience. So that necessarily limits its impact, especially if you consider its competition. Christianity certainly doesn't require any amount of thinking whatsoever, and neither does Islam. So those will win out by default. And then, once you get into it, you find that there are all those superstitions, which you thought you could get rid of by going into buddhism, but they are there anyway, after all. So even those that might have been drawn to it initially, are often driven out again.

ETA: And also, buddhism seems so accessable at first. Then you discover that daily meditation is pretty hard, and all that loving-kindness, if you take it seriously, might be something of a challenge. So that's one more reason to retreat (pun intended).

 

[sayak83]

I read Batchelor. I really like a lot of what he has to say. In a way, this is just about labels, I could just as well call myself a buddhist if I really wanted to, which is precisely one reason why I don't do it, because... well.. why put another useless label on my forehead? Just to proudly belong to some more or less virtual community? Nah...

I would like to add another, more general thought: I think that "westernized" mainstream buddhism has a huge publicity issue (if we forget the Dalai Lama fandom for a while, which I really, REALLY cannot take seriously as a form of buddhism).

The problem is: It appeals mostly to a higly educated, probably intelligent audience. So that necessarily limits its impact, especially if you consider its competition. Christianity certainly doesn't require any amount of thinking whatsoever, and neither does Islam. So those will win out by default. And then, once you get into it, you find that there are all those superstitions, which you thought you could get rid of by going into buddhism, but they are there anyway, after all. So even those that might have been drawn to it initially, are often driven out again.

Buddhism, classically has always been a "high" religion, attracting the urban upper and middle class of India and Tang China, the traders of the Silk route, present in the Indian and Chinese cities and towns, and associated with large classical universities of India and China and South East Asia. The monks were not only supposed have excellent knowledge of the immense Pali canon but also comptency in other branches of philosophy and the sciences (like astronomy, medicine etc.) in keeping with the general expectation in that age from the Brahmins of India and the Confucious scholars of China with whom they were sharing religious and intellectual space. That civilization suffered a severe setback with the Islamic expansion and Mongol conquest, and has survived in a more populist variety mixed up with folk religions.
I certainly do not think that Christianity and Islam would win by default in any manner. Their success has been hitherto due to their association with imperial powers. The truth is Christianity is losing adherents while the growth of Islam is primarily due to population growth in Sub Saharan Africa.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The problem is: It appeals mostly to a higly educated, probably intelligent audience. So that necessarily limits its impact, especially if you consider its competition. Christianity certainly doesn't require any amount of thinking whatsoever, and neither does Islam. So those will win out by default. And then, once you get into it, you find that there are all those superstitions, which you thought you could get rid of by going into buddhism, but they are there anyway, after all. So even those that might have been drawn to it initially, are often driven out again.

ETA: And also, buddhism seems so accessable at first. Then you discover that daily meditation is pretty hard, and all that loving-kindness, if you take it seriously, might be something of a challenge. So that's one more reason to retreat (pun intended).

Well said.

I get the impression Buddhism tends to serve as a cafe' feel good type of religion stereotyped as a practice for well to do book reading glasses wearing upperclassmen who play chess.

One look at a overpriced Buddhist catalog and I'm surrounded by photographs of mansions with Zen gardens.


I think misconceptions abound with the religion as much as it parralls the misgivings and "flaws" of just about any religion out there without realizing it's supposed to be that way.

 

[sayak83]

Well said.

I get the impression Buddhism tends to serve as a cafe' feel good type of religion stereotyped as a practice for well to do book reading glasses wearing upperclassmen who play chess.

One look at a overpriced Buddhist catalog and I'm surrounded by photographs of mansions with Zen gardens.


I think misconceptions abound with the religion as much as it parralls the misgivings and "flaws" of just about any religion out there without realizing it's supposed to be that way.

First line of first sermon of Buddha
Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion

"There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.

Clearly luxurious Zen mansions is not Buddha's idea of the Middle Way.

 

[idav]

I have often wondered why Buddhism is not more popular than it is currently. I personally have found Buddhism to be a great help in thought and in life, as well as reasonably easy to grasp (unlike Hinduism and humanistic materialism) and generally devoid of serious logical or ethical problems (unlike Abrahamic religions).

So, for those you who have heard or read a bit about Buddhism. what were the main objections that caused you to not pursue it or give up on it or feel uninterested in it?

I tend to think Buddhism can coincide with other dharma religions(Hinduism), and scriptures tend to match the love and compassion found in the gospels. I don't have any issues with Buddhism, I learn a lot from it and other religions. I wonder if buddhists just don't tend to claim religions and maybe fall in the non-religious group.

 

[Twilight Hue]

First line of first sermon of Buddha
Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion

"There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.

Clearly luxurious Zen mansions is not Buddha's idea of the Middle Way.

Maybe, yet they still look pretty nice.

Stetson Mansion Zen Garden:

 

[vijeno]

Ultimately, buddhism is not for me for the simple reason that I think enlightenment is physiologically impossible. Our brains are wired to create a self. We might be able to overcome this for short periods of time if we really work hard, but it's not a permanent state, nor is it desirable. (Yeah I know, nirvana and samsara are the same, enlightenment is not a state, yadayadaya, but that's really just mumbojumbo and an apologetic excuse for not being able to come up with anything tangible.)