Not Hinduism?

[Madhuri]

I am wondering, why is Jainism not considered a Hindu philosophy?
I admit to not knowing much about Jainism. But from what I can gather, it's very Vedic! There are so many of the same concepts. So why is it considered a completely different religion? What are the main differences that cause this religious separation?

 

[Arav]

There are many similarities between HInduism and Jainism. Jainism is very similar to the Samkhya Philosophy of Hinduism. Believe it or not, there are some Jains who say that Jainism is apart of Hinduism! I dont believe this and I believe that is wrong because it says that Bhagwan Mahavir's Jain Dharma is just an extention of Sanatana Dharma, instead of being its own Dharma.

Jainism does not believe in the caste system and disbelieves in Ishvara. We dont accept the Vedas to be the truth but that the Jain Agams are the truth. Though, there are many similarities between the faiths, there are major differences like the ones above that seperate them greatly. The difference between Hinduism and Jainism is like that between Chistianity and Islam. Even though there are many things that are the same, there are major philisophical differences that seperate them greatly.

 

[Madhuri]

Ah, thank you. That makes sense. I guess the acceptance/rejection of the Vedas is the key here because there are Hindu philosophies that are impersonal/monistic.

I really like Jainism, so far. I especially love the emphasis on non-violence.
Thank you for the info!

 

[Arav]

Ah, thank you. That makes sense. I guess the acceptance/rejection of the Vedas is the key here because there are Hindu philosophies that are impersonal/monistic.

I really like Jainism, so far. I especially love the emphasis on non-violence.
Thank you for the info!

Yes, the whole Hindu/non-Hindu thing, according to me, has to do with the acceptance of the Vedas. We can see this because of the impersonal/monistic as well as the personal/dualistic philosophies. Though they are very different, completey opposing sides, they still accept the Vedas.

And it is nice to see that you have an interest in Jainism. If you have anymore questions, done hesitate to ask, I would love to answer anything you might question.

 

[nameless]

Jainism does not believe in the caste system

friend jai, hindu caste system is cultural, not religious. Vedas or hindu religion are not responsible for that.

and disbelieves in Ishvara

i think not every schools of hinduism believes in ishvara, Hinduism approves every path that can lead to truth without considering its philosophy logic.

We dont accept the Vedas to be the truth

you mean acceptance of vedas are not necessary in the path of jainism or because there is errors in vedas?
Inside Hinduism too some schools contradicts philosophies each other, still they all are correct in hindu view point.

 

[Arav]

friend jai, hindu caste system is cultural, not religious. Vedas or hindu religion are not responsible for that..

I belive that Krishna says in the Bhagavad-Gita that he was a source of the Varna system and that people are put in their place based on the triple Gunas and Karma.

i think not every schools of hinduism believes in ishvara, Hinduism approves every path that can lead to truth without considering its philosophy logic..

Yes, I understand and agree that not all Hindus believe in Ishvara. Im not sure that I agree with the second part.

you mean acceptance of vedas are not necessary in the path of jainism or because there is errors in vedas?
Inside Hinduism too some schools contradicts philosophies each other, still they all are correct in hindu view point.

Yes, there are many philosophies that contradict eachother in Hinduism, that is because of the flexability of the Veda's and Upanisad's. And the Veda's are not necissary in Jainism because we dont accept them as truth.

 

[nameless]

I belive that Krishna says in the Bhagavad-Gita that he was a source of the Varna system and that people are put in their place based on the triple Gunas and Karma.

but this has nothing to do with caste system, since caste is decided by birth.

Im not sure that I agree with the second part.

it is just my mere understanding, it could be wrong.

And the Veda's are not necissary in Jainism because we dont accept them as truth.

thanks jai, but could you pls explain a bit, im confused. ie what exactly is reason for not accepting vedas as truth.

 

[Arav]

but this has nothing to do with caste system, since caste is decided by birth.

I thought that the Varna System was Caste, I could be wrong. But, originally you could change your caste.

it is just my mere understanding, it could be wrong..

I should specify, Hinduism may think that all paths lead to the same Goal, But I dont belive that. Sorry for the confusion.

thanks jai, but could you pls explain a bit, im confused. ie what exactly is reason for not accepting vedas as truth.

We dont accept the Veda's simply because Mahavir attained maximum peace and liberation seperate from the Veda's. If Mahavir used the Veda's to get to Moksha, we would too. But he brought back Jain Dharma, which is different from Vedic Dharma. He brought the Jain Agams and the Jain Nirjaras, and the Jain Tapas and we follow those. Why? Because if Mahavira attained peace from material existence, then we should follow his teachings so that we can get to were he is. The Veda's are just something that we dont accept, its basically the same reason why Buddhist dont follow the Veda's, because Buddha found peace outside of the Veda's. Understand that when Mahavir attained Keval Gyan (enlightenment) that Brahminism widely practiced and the Caste system became corrupt. So Mahavir looked outside of the Veda's and found peace, and those who didnt like the caste system and didt fully agree with the Veda's liked Mahavira and followed him.

Sorry if this answer isnt clear, its just hard to explain well why we dont accept somethings and accept others.

 

[Andal]

Namaskar,

Varna and caste (often conflated together) are two different things. The Gita says that each person is placed in a Varna based on their mode of being and inclinations. This does not mean that it's birth based. People who are scholars and brilliant with religion are brahmins. People who think strategically or have a talent for politics are kshaitriya etc. Caste on the other hand is birth based and may have it's roots in the idea that the son should take on the father's business...very similar to what happened in the middle ages of Europe.

I'm glad you're here Jai as we don't have too many Jains these days

 

[Arav]

Namaskar,

Varna and caste (often conflated together) are two different things. The Gita says that each person is placed in a Varna based on their mode of being and inclinations. This does not mean that it's birth based. People who are scholars and brilliant with religion are brahmins. People who think strategically or have a talent for politics are kshaitriya etc. Caste on the other hand is birth based and may have it's roots in the idea that the son should take on the father's business...very similar to what happened in the middle ages of Europe.

Thank you for clearing this up for me! It makes much sense.

I'm glad you're here Jai as we don't have too many Jains these days

Well, Im glad to be here and I am very happy to be of help to all those who wish to know more about Jainism.

 

[Tathagata]

I am wondering, why is Jainism not considered a Hindu philosophy?
I admit to not knowing much about Jainism. But from what I can gather, it's very Vedic! There are so many of the same concepts. So why is it considered a completely different religion? What are the main differences that cause this religious separation?

Well, first of all, having similar tenets don't necessitate that two different religions be considered the same. Most religions believe in souls, God, and an afterlife, but that doesn't mean they should stop being considered different religions.

Secondly, Jainism is considered a separate religion because it IS a separate religion with a different founder, different core doctrines, and different practices.

Not to mention, I'd argue that Jainism is not all that similar to Hinduism. Jainism believes in one eternal, uncreated universe whereas Hinduism believes in many finite, created universes. The concepts of karma are quite different. Jainism believes karma is an actual substance of impurity based on a persons actions, whereas Hinduism doesn't. There's more, but that's just a couple differences.


.

 

[Madhuri]

Thanks Tathagata, really helpful! I'll have to read more on this religion.

 

[nameless]

I should specify, Hinduism may think that all paths lead to the same Goal, But I dont belive that. Sorry for the confusion.

not all paths exactly, in fact there is different paths to same goal. I respect your view on this, anyway. Personally i believe, though these paths appear to be different, essentially they are all same when put into practice.

We dont accept the Veda's simply because Mahavir attained maximum peace and liberation seperate from the Veda's. If Mahavir used the Veda's to get to Moksha, we would too. But he brought back Jain Dharma, which is different from Vedic Dharma. He brought the Jain Agams and the Jain Nirjaras, and the Jain Tapas and we follow those. Why? Because if Mahavira attained peace from material existence, then we should follow his teachings so that we can get to were he is. The Veda's are just something that we dont accept, its basically the same reason why Buddhist dont follow the Veda's, because Buddha found peace outside of the Veda's.

It is said there was no beginning for vedas, means vedas are not those scriptures and books, they are simply the universal and eternal principles the enlightened holy people realizes. And vedas itself says, scriptures wont benefit much for one's spiritual journey. So Mahavir did not relied on hindu scriptures does not mean his path is different from that of Hinduism . The early Rishis and munies did not relied on any scriptures, their path too was the meditation, still they are not outside to Hinduism.
I think it requires some different core principles or philosophy contradictions to state that jainism is different from Hinduism.

The history of Jainism cannot be dated, there are instances in vedas where it got influenced by jainists.
In the Rig -veda there are clear references to Rishabhdev, the 1st Tirthankar, and to Aristanemi, the 22nd Tirthankar. The Yajur-veda also mentions the names of three Tirthankars, viz. Rishabhdev, Ajitanath and Aristanemi.

When it is said that Jainism is Hinduism, kindly dont take it as hijacking jainism. Both are simply labels for the same thing, which is not necessary.

Jai Mahavir

 

[Arav]

It is said there was no beginning for vedas, means vedas are not those scriptures and books, they are simply the universal and eternal principles the enlightened holy people realizes. And vedas itself says, scriptures wont benefit much for one's spiritual journey. So Mahavir did not relied on hindu scriptures does not mean his path is different from that of Hinduism . The early Rishis and munies did not relied on any scriptures, their path too was the meditation, still they are not outside to Hinduism.
I think it requires some different core principles or philosophy contradictions to state that jainism is different from Hinduism.

The history of Jainism cannot be dated, there are instances in vedas where it got influenced by jainists.
In the Rig -veda there are clear references to Rishabhdev, the 1st Tirthankar, and to Aristanemi, the 22nd Tirthankar. The Yajur-veda also mentions the names of three Tirthankars, viz. Rishabhdev, Ajitanath and Aristanemi.

When it is said that Jainism is Hinduism, kindly dont take it as hijacking jainism. Both are simply labels for the same thing, which is not necessary.

Jai Mahavir

I do too, respect your view on this, but I still feel uneasy every comming to acceptance of it. It seems like it might be disrespectful to Mahavir to place his Jain Dharma along with Hinduism. He re-founded a Dharma that is unlike Hinduism in many ways and I just dont like saying that Jainism is just an extension of Hinduism. Because there are things about Jainism that are just unlike Hinduism. Though there are many similairities, it is the placement of those similairities with the differences in the unique places that they are in that make Jainism different from Hinduism. I just dont feel they are the same.

 

[ByeRaagi Rayaprolu]

this healthy debate reminds me of the "inconceivable simultaneous nondifference-n-difference"..
overwhelmed by the mutual respect and regard the dharmicists share with each other, i pray all our sages, siddhas and Acharyas and buddhas to bind us all to the Truth, with the yoke of Love.
a prayer for myself and for my country and for my world.
may Gurus,siddhas,rishis,Bodhisattvas & Jinas make your children ascetic-rulers
may sikhs, rajputs and kshatriyas make your children obedient warriors for Dharma
may Jains and Vaishyas make your children philanthropic enterprenuers & employers.

may your children seek only Truth and Knowledge living at their teacher's feet.
may they become Householders only to live up to,and to sponsor, their sva-Dharma.
may they experiment with Truth as the veteran champions of their sva-Dharma
may they ripen in to the ascetic-teachers and preachers for all the seekers gen-next

Then i will die to serve & follow your children, expecting nothing in return.
I will learn from your children by serving them, which wud be my gr8est fortune.
I cannot afford the gr8 minds of my country go waste their lives in petty survival tasks
or daily chores like housekeeping, even a layman like me can do these.
treat me with compassion, even if not with love.
treat me as worthy n useful, even if not as an equal.
try n touch my heart with ur words n deeds, even if not my body with yours.
Then why wud i hate to pass on my social status to my own children ??

ur untouchable Hindu[="Indian"]servant.
:candle: longlive svadharma :candle:

 

[Arav]

this healthy debate reminds me of the "inconceivable simultaneous nondifference-n-difference"..
overwhelmed by the mutual respect and regard the dharmicists share with each other, i pray all our sages, siddhas and Acharyas and buddhas to bind us all to the Truth, with the yoke of Love.
a prayer for myself and for my country and for my world.
may Gurus,siddhas,rishis,Bodhisattvas & Jinas make your children ascetic-rulers
may sikhs, rajputs and kshatriyas make your children obedient warriors for Dharma
may Jains and Vaishyas make your children philanthropic enterprenuers & employers.

may your children seek only Truth and Knowledge living at their teacher's feet.
may they become Householders only to live up to,and to sponsor, their sva-Dharma.
may they experiment with Truth as the veteran champions of their sva-Dharma
may they ripen in to the ascetic-teachers and preachers for all the seekers gen-next

Then i will die to serve & follow your children, expecting nothing in return.
I will learn from your children by serving them, which wud be my gr8est fortune.
I cannot afford the gr8 minds of my country go waste their lives in petty survival tasks
or daily chores like housekeeping, even a layman like me can do these.
treat me with compassion, even if not with love.
treat me as worthy n useful, even if not as an equal.
try n touch my heart with ur words n deeds, even if not my body with yours.
Then why wud i hate to pass on my social status to my own children ??

ur untouchable Hindu[="Indian"]servant.
:candle: longlive svadharma :candle:

Thank you for this ByeRaagi! It is a beautiful prayer and I like the fact that your seeing this in the view of simultaeous non-difference and difference. Because that is really what all Dharmic Paths are I guess. They are one and different. It has been said by some Terapanth Jains that the Religion that teaches about letting go of Attachment and Aversion is the real religion. I guess that makes Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and Sikhism all true in that sense!

 

[religion99]

Jainism deny existence of Almighty Omnipotent Omnipresent Creator God ( Brahma ) in no uncertain term. Jainism deny existence of Conductor of Universe Affairs Vishnu. Jainism deny existence of Universe Destroyer Shiv. Hence Jainism is not included under Hinduism.

 

[Riverwolf]

What about the Tirukkural? I think I read somewhere that some Jains accept this text, despite its Hindu origins.

 

[religion99]

I have read Tirukkural. Tirukkural is not Jain text. None of the Jain Scholars accept it as Jain Text.

 

[nameless]

Jainism deny existence of Almighty Omnipotent Omnipresent Creator God ( Brahma ) in no uncertain term. Jainism deny existence of Conductor of Universe Affairs Vishnu. Jainism deny existence of Universe Destroyer Shiv.

Only some hindus believes so, you wont find these characters in any upanishads or vedas, may be rarely. Not matching with certain schools of hinduism does not mean it is outside of umbrella of hinduism, since hinduism is not a single faith.