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Nontheism is not always atheism

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It seems some atheists want to paint it as a "theism vs atheism" thing, so they can claim the nontheists. But often times the theists want to claim you too and do the same thing, it's happened at least to me a lot from both sides.

No, I'm not an atheist. Atheism is a SUBSET of nontheism.

Wikipedia: Nontheism - Wikipedia

Not to be confused with atheism.

Nontheism or non-theism is a range of both religious[1] and nonreligious[2] attitudes characterized by the absence of espoused belief in a God or gods. Nontheism has generally been used to describe apathy or silence towards the subject of God and differs from an antithetical, explicit atheism. Nontheism does not necessarily describe atheism or disbelief in God; it has been used as an umbrella term for summarizing various distinct and even mutually exclusive positions, such as agnosticism, ignosticism, ietsism, skepticism, pantheism, atheism, strong or positive atheism, implicit atheism, and apatheism. It is in use in the fields of Christian apologetics and general liberal theology.

Wiktionary: nontheism - Wiktionary

Noun
nontheism (uncountable)

Any of a range of concepts regarding spirituality and religion which do not include the idea of a deity in the form of a theistic god or gods.
The 2nd definition from Urban Dictionary: Urban Dictionary: nontheist

nontheist
A person who does not believe in a theistic personal god.
All
atheists are nontheists, but not all nontheists are atheists.


It seems I can't find any major dictionaries that use the term, but the term does apply to many religions:

Nontheistic religion - Wikipedia


====================


Basically, nontheism is "not theism". That doesn't mean "atheist". And even if you use it to mean "atheist" many people who say nontheism just mean "not theism". There are more points of view in the world than atheism or theism.

So not only does it literally mean "not theist" that's how it's commonly used. Not all nontheists are atheists, even though all atheists are nontheists.

If you want to criticize my sources keep in mind these are going to be more indicative of how the normal person uses them, even if you can prove that there are people who use it to mean atheism that doesn't disprove it's also very common usage to mean a non-atheistic, but non-theistic viewpoint on deities. Two different intended meanings can co-exist.

However I would argue that it makes more sense to just say atheism is a subset of nontheism. It's like saying "I had pie" and "I had apple pie". Both are true, but one isn't always apple. It seems to me people want to define only "apple pie" as pie just because it is their favorite, they want to deny that other types of pies might be valid pies too.
 
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ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I do tend to use alternate descriptors than non-theism to save on confusion but I've no problem with the term. I describe myself with several labels commonly under the Non-theistic umbrella, including agnostic, atheist, ignostic and apatheist, because each of them play a role in my world view.
 
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SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
The Atheism and Theism divide does seem to be a rather Western idea. Or at least Abrahamic. It's either all or nothing, which I suppose makes sense in that context. Outside of that, with spiritual practices not really emphasizing that dichotomy and even making the idea optional, non theists can find their own place within their chosen religion. Generally speaking, of course. Hell in some traditions there's no real equivalent concept of apostasy. Rendering the all or nothing approach somewhat moot.
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Atheism and Theism divide does seem to be a rather Western idea. Or at least Abrahamic. It's either all or nothing, which I suppose makes sense in that context. Outside of that, with spiritual practices not really emphasizing that dichotomy and even making the idea optional, non theists can find their own place within their chosen religion. Generally speaking, of course. Hell in some traditions there's no real equivalent concept of apostasy. Rendering the all or nothing approach somewhat moot.

Ya, many Hindu religions really defy any common understanding of theism. Sometimes I feel like we are everything at once lol
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Non-theism: question of deity or non-deity is not relevant. Theism not relevant. Atheism not relevant. Agnosticism not relevant, etc.

The question of deity or non deity is not relevant to learning how to tie your shoes, for example.
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Non-theism: question of deity or non-deity is not relevant. Theism not relevant. Atheism not relevant. Agnosticism not relevant, etc.

The question of deity or non deity is not relevant to learning how to tie your shoes, for example.
That's irrelevanism. :D
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Non-theism: question of deity or non-deity is not relevant. Theism not relevant. Atheism not relevant. Agnosticism not relevant, etc.

The question of deity or non deity is not relevant to learning how to tie your shoes, for example.

That's one way I've heard it used, but again my emphasis is that it's used often to mean a view on a deity in a non-atheistic way. I'm sure you are more than familiar with the Buddhist concepts of deities and demi-gods which are often nontheistic, usually in the Tantric lines of thought.

That's irrelevanism. :D

This.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Agree. I prefer the terms believer vs non-believer and a non-believer of any type of god version would be an atheist, not just a non-theist.
 

VioletVortex

Well-Known Member
Nontheism sounds like it refers to non-theistic beliefs in a broader sense. Atheism, apatheism, angosticism etc. are all nontheistic doctrines.
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Nontheism sounds like it refers to non-theistic beliefs in a broader sense. Atheism, apatheism, angosticism etc. are all nontheistic doctrines.

Eh, let me give myself as an example to point out what I mean.

In my specific practice my concept of a deity is that they are abstract entities that exist as abstract entities supported by conscious awareness of their existence. A good metaphor is to imagine that they are dream entities that in the dream help you realize something.

Not everyone can relate to this, but a lot of people can... but I've had dreams where characters in it said something to me profound or did something profound that helped me in the waking world. These characters were no different than deities because the actions were directed at me, unlike a totally unreal fictional character. Deities in the waking world are like this in similar ways, you're just experiencing it in a different state of consciousness.

This isn't to say it's "all in your head", well, they are, but they also transcend any single mind or even the collective mind, so long as the awareness of them remains. Ultimately though they are not creators, they are not supernatural, but they are divine. They are Ishvaras which fall under the pure tattvas in Trika and so they are more than a step removed from either time, space, desire, knowledge, power or soul all comprising the physical Universe aka the pure-impure tattvas.

However even they are not real on their own. I believe that they are supported by phenomena in Maya, even if they exist not in it. The reason this is so is so that they can be used as stepping stones to realize Shiva and Shakti not as Ishvaras but Shiva as representative of the cosmic principles that govern both the abstract and physical and Shakti as the manifestation of those principles, which results in the nondual union of the citta and cit.

In that sense, I'm not really a theist at all. But I'm also not an atheist.
 
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Jeremiahcp

Well-Known Jerk
It seems some atheists want to paint it as a "theism vs atheism" thing, so they can claim the nontheists. But often times the theists want to claim you too and do the same thing, it's happened at least to me a lot from both sides.

No, I'm not an atheist. Atheism is a SUBSET of nontheism.

Wikipedia: Nontheism - Wikipedia



Wiktionary: nontheism - Wiktionary


The 2nd definition from Urban Dictionary: Urban Dictionary: nontheist




It seems I can't find any major dictionaries that use the term, but the term does apply to many religions:

Nontheistic religion - Wikipedia


====================


Basically, nontheism is "not theism". That doesn't mean "atheist". And even if you use it to mean "atheist" many people who say nontheism just mean "not theism". There are more points of view in the world than atheism or theism.

So not only does it literally mean "not theist" that's how it's commonly used. Not all nontheists are atheists, even though all atheists are nontheists.

If you want to criticize my sources keep in mind these are going to be more indicative of how the normal person uses them, even if you can prove that there are people who use it to mean atheism that doesn't disprove it's also very common usage to mean a non-atheistic, but non-theistic viewpoint on deities. Two different intended meanings can co-exist.

However I would argue that it makes more sense to just say atheism is a subset of nontheism. It's like saying "I had pie" and "I had apple pie". Both are true, but one isn't always apple. It seems to me people want to define only "apple pie" as pie just because it is their favorite, they want to deny that other types of pies might be valid pies too.

"It seems I can't find any major dictionaries that use the term, but the term does apply to many religions:"


You don't get more major than the OED.

A. n.

A person who is not a theist.

Home : Oxford English Dictionary


"If you want to criticize my sources keep in mind these are going to be more indicative of how the normal person uses them"

Says who? You? Wikipedia is not a reliable source, because it does not go though research and revision such as the OED would. It is not about "normal person use", it is about a lack of effort in establishing and verifying what that "normal person use" is; I mean make your case about non-theism all you want, but let's not pretend Wikipedia is something it is not.
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
"It seems I can't find any major dictionaries that use the term, but the term does apply to many religions:"


You don't get more major than the OED.



Home : Oxford English Dictionary


"If you want to criticize my sources keep in mind these are going to be more indicative of how the normal person uses them"

Says who? You? Wikipedia is not a reliable source, because it does not go though research and revision such as the OED would. It is not about "normal person use", it is about a lack of effort in establishing and verifying what that "normal person use" is; I mean make your case about non-theism all you want, but let's not pretend Wikipedia is something it is not.

It's been proven that Wikipedia is at least as reliable as Encylopedia Britannica according to a study published in Nature: Study: Wikipedia as accurate as Britannica

There is this fallacy that wikipedia is necessarily unreliable, as if it makes up claims on it's own. The standards of the site rely on verifiable secondary sources so if an article is wrong it's not really it's fault assuming it cited all the relevant major sources meaning that often times if something on an article is brought into question it's the given source that should be scrutinized.

Also thanks for that, I must of forgotten about the Oxford dictionary. In any case that definition fits exactly the usage and definition I was arguing for. Simply "not a theist".

I used Urban Dictionary as well. Maybe my post didn't have the most effort but even if people on those sites are not very scholarly it just lends credence to my claim that they are defining things as a layman understands it.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Who really cares?

You believe what you believe. If you are worried about what others think about what you believe then you are in fact only believing to please others. That's not right.
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Who really cares?

You believe what you believe. If you are worried about what others think about what you believe then you are in fact only believing to please others. That's not right.

It's more of a case of being bothered enough to say something, after a few years of hearing it, of people attempting to invalidate my position and beliefs.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
It's more of a case of being bothered enough to say something, after a few years of hearing it, of people attempting to invalidate my position and beliefs.

That's always going to happen, especially if you are on the right path. But I get where you're coming from.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
In my specific practice my concept of a deity is that they are abstract entities that exist as abstract entities supported by conscious awareness of their existence. A good metaphor is to imagine that they are dream entities that in the dre
A huge of the problem here is how vague the fundamental words are in real life, as opposed to resources like dictionaries.

I'm not criticizing you or your beliefs, but what you described here doesn't seem at all like a deity to me. I run into this problem a lot, with other similar words like religion or believer or knowledge and such.
Makes the conversation difficult:)
Tom
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
A huge of the problem here is how vague the fundamental words are in real life, as opposed to resources like dictionaries.

I'm not criticizing you or your beliefs, but what you described here doesn't seem at all like a deity to me. I run into this problem a lot, with other similar words like religion or believer or knowledge and such.
Makes the conversation difficult:)
Tom

That's kinda why I use the term non-theist :p
 
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