Non-Trinitarians: What's wrong with the Trinity?

[metis]

And there is A. Lot. Of Platonic thought inherent in the Greek texts.

Exactly, and which is to be expected, especially that was the language of scholars throughout the Mediterranean back then. Although Koine Greek was considered "casual" Greek, much like my wife's Sicilian dialect can be considered "casual Italian"-- lotsa slang words mixed in with words from other societies.

 

[sojourner]

a dead god resurrecting him self ?? why would he do that ?? he would not be dead to be able to resurrect him self ! are you sure you have thought this through ?

The way you conceptualize God and the way the ancient Jews conceptualized God are two different things. Yes. I’ve thought it through, having studied with a NT scholar who’s an expert.

You?

 

[cataway]

do you understand what dead means ?

 

[sojourner]

do you understand what dead means ?

Yeah, but you don’t understand how the ancient Judaic people regarded the dead.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Isn’t that what cake is for? What’s so difficult about the concept of both/and?

No, sir. Cake is for eating.

 

[sojourner]

No, sir. Cake is for eating.

You said I wanted my cake and eat it too. I said that eating is what cake is for. By the phrase, one can’t eat one’s cake until one has one’s cake. It’s both/and.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You said I wanted my cake and eat it too. I said that eating is what cake is for. By the phrase, one can’t eat one’s cake until one has one’s cake. It’s both/and.

You are simply arguing to argue. You cannot eat a cake and continue to have it. But regardless, it is a dang metaphor. Don't quibble over the metaphor and miss the whole point!!!!

 

[sojourner]

You are simply arguing to argue. You cannot eat a cake and continue to have it. But regardless, it is a dang metaphor. Don't quibble over the metaphor and miss the whole point!!!!

Ok. My point is that it can be a both/and proposition. Jesus is fully God and fully human. God is three in One.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ok. My point is that it can be a both/and proposition. Jesus is fully God and fully human. God is three in One.

And my point is that Christianity has developed theologies that are nutty logical backflips in order to fit square pegs into round holes. Judaism is elegantly simply. There is one God, period; God is God and man is man.

 

[sojourner]

And my point is that Christianity has developed theologies that are nutty logical backflips in order to fit square pegs into round holes. Judaism is elegantly simply. There is one God, period; God is God and man is man.

...Because God is simple; humanity is simple, and there’s no need to try to wrap our heads around any of it?

Not knocking Judaism; it’s a beautiful religion. I just don’t think that it’s so cut-and-dried as you’d like us to think. In fact, the doctrine of the Trinity says just that: There is one God. Period. But where it differs is that it doesn’t draw such a grand distinction between Divinity and humanity.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

...Because God is simple; humanity is simple, and there’s no need to try to wrap our heads around any of it?

Not knocking Judaism; it’s a beautiful religion. I just don’t think that it’s so cut-and-dried as you’d like us to think. In fact, the doctrine of the Trinity says just that: There is one God. Period. But where it differs is that it doesn’t draw such a grand distinction between Divinity and humanity.

But Chrisitanity does NOT say there is one God period. It goes on to say that this one God is three persons, and that one of these persons is also a man. That's a pretty muddied monotheism. Honestly, I'm not trying to be mean. I think Christians are good people. I'm just trying to be honest about how things really are about the theology. I think if you take a breath and clear your mind and approach it obectively, you will see it too. I don't expect you to be anything other than a Christian.

 

[sojourner]

But Chrisitanity does NOT say there is one God period. It goes on to say that this one God is three persons, and that one of these persons is also a man. That's a pretty muddied monotheism. Honestly, I'm not trying to be mean. I think Christians are good people. I'm just trying to be honest about how things really are about the theology. I think if you take a breath and clear your mind and approach it obectively, you will see it too. I don't expect you to be anything other than a Christian.

Yes. But why does One God have to be a particularity? Do you see how the. Trinity expresses one God in a way that is, perhaps more inclusive of the humanity that is created in God’s image? You’re talking as if God is A Being, instead of simply ... Being. Is God not all? At least, that’s how I see it. For me, it makes more sense if (as I believe) the world is God’s body. Yes, it’s a blatant panentheistic view. If I’m getting Judaism right, you all see God as fundamentally other than creation — IOW, God is more transcendent. But many of us see creation as fundamentally made up of God-essence. God is imminent in creation. I suppose that would make it more difficult for you all to grasp the essence of Trinitarian thought.

I don’t think you’re being mean. This is stuff that’s close t our hearts, and we have to be honest about what we think. I think we can do that without tearing each other down.

 

[metis]

But Chrisitanity does NOT say there is one God period. It goes on to say that this one God is three persons, and that one of these persons is also a man.

The key to understanding this approach, whether it be correct or not, is with the use of the Greek concept of "essence" as promulgated by Aristotle and Plato: Essence - Wikipedia

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes. But why does One God have to be a particularity? Do you see how the. Trinity expresses one God in a way that is, perhaps more inclusive of the humanity that is created in God’s image? You’re talking as if God is A Being, instead of simply ... Being. Is God not all? At least, that’s how I see it. For me, it makes more sense if (as I believe) the world is God’s body. Yes, it’s a blatant panentheistic view. If I’m getting Judaism right, you all see God as fundamentally other than creation — IOW, God is more transcendent. But many of us see creation as fundamentally made up of God-essence. God is imminent in creation. I suppose that would make it more difficult for you all to grasp the essence of Trinitarian thought.

I don’t think you’re being mean. This is stuff that’s close t our hearts, and we have to be honest about what we think. I think we can do that without tearing each other down.

Yes you are right, what you are saying is blatant pantentheism.

Judaism admits to the "divine spark" being in all human beings -- but that doesn't make us God or part of God or the essence of God or anything like that. In my own personal view, I would say that all of creation has the fingerprint of the Creator upon it. That every rock and tree mirrors the Lord. That's still not panentheism. It's just pretty dogone close.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The key to understanding this approach, whether it be correct or not, is with the use of the Greek concept of "essence" as promulgated by Aristotle and Plato: Essence - Wikipedia

The emergence of the idea that Jesus is God, rather than simply the Messiah, and the subsequent development of Trinitarianism runs hand in hand with anti-Semitism. After all, it's one thing if "the Jews" simply killed an important man; it's quite another if "the Jews" killed God.

Because of this, I've read a couple of books on the history of the development of Trinitarianism, and I actually think I do have a pretty good handle on what it is. I know most of the analogies, and where they fall short. I believe I understand the Greek concepts behind the theology.

And I still think it is logical back flips. The trouble the church has gone to to try to force certain concepts together that don't belong together!

 

[sojourner]

and the subsequent development of Trinitarianism runs hand in hand with anti-Semitism. After all, it's one thing if "the Jews" simply killed an important man; it's quite another if "the Jews" killed God.

Wait... The Jews didn’t kill Jesus. AFAIK, crucifixion wasn’t a Judaic “thing.” the Romans killed Jesus in an act of state terrorism. IDK where this “anti-Semitism” came from, but remember, the earliest Xtians were Judaic.

The trouble the church has gone to to try to force certain concepts together that don't belong together

I don’t see that they don’t belong together. I prefer to look at the concept of Trinity as a new paradigm in theological thought. And it’s one that simply is not easy to talk about except in the broadest of terms.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Wait... The Jews didn’t kill Jesus. AFAIK, crucifixion wasn’t a Judaic “thing.” the Romans killed Jesus in an act of state terrorism. IDK where this “anti-Semitism” came from, but remember, the earliest Xtians were Judaic.

Did you see how I put "the Jews" in quotation marks in my post? That's because it is a Christian claim that we killed Jesus, not because it's the actual truth.

 

[sojourner]

Did you see how I put "the Jews" in quotation marks in my post? That's because it is a Christian claim that we killed Jesus, not because it's the actual truth.

I disregard such nonsense and speak out against it whenever I hear it. Fake history doesn’t get us anywhere.

 

[metis]

The emergence of the idea that Jesus is God, rather than simply the Messiah, and the subsequent development of Trinitarianism runs hand in hand with anti-Semitism. After all, it's one thing if "the Jews" simply killed an important man; it's quite another if "the Jews" killed God.

VERY fortunately, that's been changed-- within the Catholic Church at least. I was sponsored on a study of the Holocaust back in 1991, thus I spent three weeks in Poland and Israel, and while in Poland we met with Catholic (and other) clergy there explaining what's been done since to ameliorate this.

Secondly, the issue of the Trinitarian concept had little to do with anti-Semitism, but what had a lot to do with it is the writings within the NT that actually encouraged it. Fortunately, within the Catholic Church at least, it is now recognized that the NT was written with such an unfortunate bias, which is why recent popes not only have been apologetic to the Jewish community but also are active together in ecumenical meetings and services with Jewish congregations, whereas I have also been personally involved as well.

And I still think it is logical back flips. The trouble the church has gone to to try to force certain concepts together that don't belong together!

Partially true as there's a bit of illogical that's in the Nicene Creed so as to bring those within Arianism into the fold during the 4th century-- which actually did work, btw. However, the Greek influence with the writing of the NT in general is that which we should focus in on vis-a-vis this discussion since the concept of "essence" is very crucial to a basic understanding of the Trinitarian concept, minus the specifics.

Anyhow, my post back to you was meant merely as an explanation, thus not as a debate or on-going discussion. Personally, especially since I'm on the lunatic left-wing fringe of Catholicism, I really am quite ambivalent about that concept.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

VERY fortunately, that's been changed-- within the Catholic Church at least.

Yes, I agree that the Catholic Church has done a great about face with regards to anti-Semitism. I think that Nostra Aetate has not finished unfolding either.