Non-Christians go to Hell

[Skwim]

It is not my place to prove the scriptures, that is between each person and God. Since I believe God exists and the biblical scriptures are His revealed, living Word then I also believe He is more than capable to reveal these truths and provide enough convincing evidence to anyone who truly wants to know.

Then why doesn't he? If he's the kind of god who demands that people "sincerely seek to know him" before revealing his presence and presents then he isn't the kind of god I'd care to have around. Why? because "seeking to know him" comes down to a matter of persuasion. Either a person is persuaded to seek to know him or not. And whose fault is it that I'm not persuaded? It can't be me because one can't simply decide to desire something. Either one desires something or one doesn't. So the persuasive machinery has to exist outside the person. The tambourine banging street corner preacher or the TVangelist who needs my credit card number to put me right with god certainly haven't worked. And you haven't persuaded me to seek his truth, so is it your fault I won't see it? God certainly hasn't hit me with a thunderbolt of desire to seek his truth, so where does this fault lie? Am I to end up banging at the gates of Heaven because some ninny down on earth failed to do their job? Certainly seems so. All of which goes right back to god's requirement that I "sincerely seek to know him" before revealing his presence and presents. It's a highly unfair (to put it politely) requirement, and I don't like unfair gods.


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[InChrist]

Then why doesn't he? If he's the kind of god who demands that people "sincerely seek to know him" before revealing his presence and presents then he isn't the kind of god I'd care to have around. Why? because "seeking to know him" comes down to a matter of persuasion. Either a person is persuaded to seek to know him or not. And whose fault is it that I'm not persuaded? It can't be me because one can't simply decide to desire something. Either one desires something or one doesn't. So the persuasive machinery has to exist outside the person. The tambourine banging street corner preacher or the TVangelist who needs my credit card number to put me right with god certainly haven't worked. And you haven't persuaded me to seek his truth, so is it your fault I won't see it? God certainly hasn't hit me with a thunderbolt of desire to seek his truth, so where does this fault lie? Am I to end up banging at the gates of Heaven because some ninny down on earth failed to do their job? Certainly seems so. All of which goes right back to god's requirement that I "sincerely seek to know him" before revealing his presence and presents. It's a highly unfair (to put it politely) requirement, and I don't like unfair gods.


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According to the scriptures God has revealed His presence. Each person either acknowledges or rejects His presence. He will respond and provide further understanding accordingly.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse... Romans 1:20

And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, says the Lord... Jer. 29:13-14

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Matthew 7:7-8

 

[InChrist]

Yes.
Are you going to answer the question?

If you have read the Bible then you know that it says things like "speak the truth in love" or behave with humility and gentleness, so hateful attitudes and behavior expressed by various groups that may claim to speak from the scriptures prove that they have it wrong and are not in accordance with God's word.

 

[McBell]

If you have read the Bible then you know that it says things like "speak the truth in love" or behave with humility and gentleness, so hateful attitudes and behavior expressed by various groups that may claim to speak from the scriptures prove that they have it wrong and are not in accordance with God's word.

And just like every other Christian group, they pick and choose...

So, how do you know they got it wrong?
Is it simply because they chose different verses than you?

 

[Skwim]

According to the scriptures God has revealed His presence.

When did he do this? Got a year or something?

Each person either acknowledges or rejects His presence. He will respond and provide further understanding accordingly.

Curious turn of events here; if god reveals his presence then why bother seeking it, as you say?

In any case, the scriptures must be wrong because so far I haven't received any such revelation. What's he waiting for? And I know of several non-believers who have gone to their graves having never mentioned any such revelation, and they sure would have if they had.

 

[metis]

And who determines innocence? Are you saying that if there is a Creator God, this God is unable to know each one's motives and whether or not a person is innocent?

Assuming there's a God, which I don't btw, then I guess it would be up to God to determine who's innocent and who isn't, therefore I would suggest leaving such decisions up to God and not speculate and try and do the judging ourselves.

 

[Forgemaster]

Okay, if you don't think God is real then I won't waste my time or yours in further discussion.

So you are incapable of having a debate or discussion with someone who does not believe that your God exsists?

 

[roger1440]

I have a better question, how could you call a god that would do that all-loving?

I don't understand what you mean, please explain.

 

[roger1440]

The way I see it, that's an example of a person that is a professional plaintiff against public entities and anyone else he can goad into "violationg the rights of" him and his family members ("church,") who are also attorneys and part of a protesting/suing machine. That "church' makes a lot of money by inciting others and then suing them. There's incentive for him to be as vile as possible, while remaining carefully within the confines of the law.

I don't think the poster you are replying to was suggesting you follow that particular person, or group's, alleged beliefs. I think the poster was suggesting that you read and reach your own conclusions.

The very book you suggest people read and “reach your own conclusions” actually emphasizes not to read and “reach your own conclusions”. The Bible encourages people to be taught by those learned in scripture. The Bible isn’t easily understood. This would account for why study Bibles exist, commentaries on the Bible, Bible study classes and seminaries. No one studies “Gone with the wind” or “Adventures of Huckleberry Finn” for years or decades.

When we teach ourselves about the Bible many have a tendency to cherry pick verses in order to defend ones point of view. In other words we tend see what we want to see and blind to what does not agree with our preconceived ideas. That is not learning. Many people use the Bible to endorse ideas that they already hold to be true. If a person is against homosexuality, verses can be found to support that. If a person is not against homosexuality verses can be found to support that too.

“…30Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31And he said, "Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.” (Acts 8:30-31)

“18 Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 19 Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 20 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates, 21 so that your days and the days of your children may be many in the land the Lord swore to give your ancestors, as many as the days that the heavens are above the earth.” (Deuteronomy 11:18-21)

Note how it says children should be taught by their parents, not that children should teach themselves.

“1 all the people came together as one in the square before the Water Gate. They told Ezra the teacher of the Law to bring out the Book of the Law of Moses, which the Lord had commanded for Israel.”

2 So on the first day of the seventh month Ezra the priest brought the Law before the assembly, which was made up of men and women and all who were able to understand. 3 He read it aloud from daybreak till noon…”

7 …instructed the people in the Law while the people were standing there. 8 They read from the Book of the Law of God, making it clear[a] and giving the meaning so that the people understood what was being read.” (Nehemiah 8:1,2,7)

Again, another example of scripture being explained by the learned to the unlearned.

 

[viole]

Many evangelical Christians preach just that. “Accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior or spend eternity in the fires of Hell.” From what I have been told about Hell, it’s a lot like spending time with my ex. Each moment seemed like eternal agony. I sure don’t want that, I already had a taste of Hell. I’m sold, where do I sign up? Many people learn about Jesus when the Gospel is preached to them. How do I know this preacher, minister, pastor or priest or whoever is preaching the right thing? I would have to put my faith in him or her. How would I know what church? There are over 10,000 flavors or Christianity worldwide. If I spent just one hour going to each and every one of these churches to investigate, it would take me over 200 years. I have also had to believe the Bible is true. This would require I put my faith in the people who compiled the Bible. The Bible didn’t just fall out of the sky one day. It took about 400 years to put it together. How do I know these people chose the right books? Then there are the books that didn’t make the cut, like the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary and many others. I would also have to put my faith in the authors who wrote the books of the Bible. I have no idea who these people were, neither do scholars. This is what God wants from people to be “saved”. It seems to be a very tall order. A person MUST subscribe to a specific idea about God otherwise that same person is damned for eternity? Actually, the Jesus of the canonical Gospels said the very opposite.

Secure your Christmas presents. Trust Santa today.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Pudding]

Read the Bible and reach your own conclusions.
Then you may have an unique interpretation which different from every others'.

What next?
It'll be to tell every others if they are sincere and God wants them to be saved then He certainly will be faithful to respond and give them reasons to know and believe as you are.

Yes, it's a golden rule to many believers that if non-believer(or believer who know and believe differently) sincerely seeking God then God must will respond and give them reasons to know and believe as the believers are. Those who claims they're sincere in seeking God but ends up to know and believe differently as they are, is all misguided or lying or just insincere to begin with.

Have there any possibilities that they may be the one who are being misguided or just insincere to begin with?
Those who're humble may will recognize that.
Those who're not humble or think that they cannot be wrong?
Well, they continue to say if you know and believe differently as they are, then they know or believe you must be wrong.

Then how many different interpretations which insists by many believers only theirs can be right, are there?
Go figure.

Wanna join in there to become a candidate to compete with them?
Then go read the Bible and reach your own conclusions and your wish may be granted.

I don't know if i have made any inappropriate generalization, i suppose that is not what i means to be and can be due to my incorrect expression.
There are certainly many believers who're peaceful and not judgemental nor wants to force their beliefs to non-believer, nor think that only they're right but every others are wrong. That is the correct practice i think.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

I don't understand what you mean, please explain.

Why would a sentient, all powerful, and all loving force lead many of the people who worship it to believe that others burn in hell?

 

[rusra02]

I see your dilemma. I think the first step is to carefully examine the Bible's claim to be the Word of God. The Bible should bear the marks of divine authorship. If or when you are convinced the Bible is God's word, you then have a benchmark against which to measure the claims of those who profess to follow Jesus Christ. I think it is like detecting counterfeit money. Once you know what genuine currency looks like, you can more easily detect false money. You do not have to examine each religion's claim because you know what the true Bible really teaches. Hint: The Bible does not teach that unbelievers will be forever tortured.

 

[Desert Snake]

Roger, Hell , or a part of Hell, would be//in this OP theory, meant for people who reject G-d. That is an action, with negative consequences.


I think that you already knew, though, right?


So, parsing the Text, to fit a context, in which Hell looks unfair, is hardly Christian, and it certainly isn't scholarly.

 

[Forgemaster]

Hint: The Bible does not teach that unbelievers will be forever tortured.

Pray tell, what does it teach happenes to us heretics?

 

[rusra02]

Pray tell, what does it teach happenes to us heretics?

I believe none of us have the right to live forever. Everlasting life is a gift Jehovah gives to those accepting it. As Romans 6:23 states: "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." Those who reject that gift can expect to pay the just wages for sin, which is death, the opposite of life.

 

[RRex]

Why would a sentient, all powerful, and all loving force lead many of the people who worship it to believe that others burn in hell?

VERY interesting question.

My honest opinion is that His intent is to set us against each other for His entertainment.

Most would attribute this behavior to Satan. In all my reading I've found that the lines between God and Satan become more and more blurred as I advance through the literature.

I'm beginning to think Satan is just God's alternate face, the guise under which God meddles negatively in the universe He created.

Keep in mind that I identify as a Deist and as such believe a higher power created the universe then sat back to watch it develop.

We are here for His amusement. Hell and the fear of it are simply part of the design.

 

[ThirtyThree]

I have a better question, how could you call a god that would do that all-loving?

You do not. You call a deity who does that as one who loves those who obey him and hates those who disobey him, and he does both of these absolutely.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

I believe none of us have the right to live forever. Everlasting life is a gift Jehovah gives to those accepting it. As Romans 6:23 states: "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." Those who reject that gift can expect to pay the just wages for sin, which is death, the opposite of life.

Why not let humans have eternal life?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

VERY interesting question.

My honest opinion is that His intent is to set us against each other for His entertainment.

Most would attribute this behavior to Satan. In all my reading I've found that the lines between God and Satan become more and more blurred as I advance through the literature.

I'm beginning to think Satan is just God's alternate face, the guise under which God meddles negatively in the universe He created.

Keep in mind that I identify as a Deist and as such believe a higher power created the universe then sat back to watch it develop.

We are here for His amusement. Hell and the fear of it are simply part of the design.

That is a possibility, though not proven.