No overwhelming historical proof: Why I doubt Jesus

[URAVIP2ME]

(I'd need a Bible to reply, haven't memorised it, just have the spirit of it - in my own way. Feel free to spell it out. I prefer Mt. 7 "Don't judge others.")
You will also notice that God said according to the Bible that he would write His laws on the hearts of men.
If you don't agree that's probably because each Human, each child of God, and we are all His children, (as Solomon makes clear, He would not create something He didn't Love), has a unique and different purpose in the plans of God. We can agree to differ, and still be one with God!

Yes, agree, we are Not to judge other people. We should Not impute a wrong or bad motive to others.
However, according to Scripture, we are Not to judge God's judgement on His matters as recorded in Scripture.

Yes, God does write His Laws inside on hearts - Romans 2:14-16; Hebrews 10:16
That is because of Jesus' New commandment (law) to have self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus did.- John 13:34-35
So, unlike the written Constitution of the Mosaic Law's 600+ laws, we are under the 'Law of Christ' - Galatians 6:2; James 1:25; James 2:8
That old Mosiac Law code was temporary - Hebrews 10; Romans 10:4 - whereas the kingly law, or royal law, of Christ is permanent.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, agree, we are Not to judge other people. We should Not impute a wrong or bad motive to others.
However, according to Scripture, we are Not to judge God's judgement on His matters as recorded in Scripture.

Yes, God does write His Laws inside on hearts - Romans 2:14-16; Hebrews 10:16
That is because of Jesus' New commandment (law) to have self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus did.- John 13:34-35
So, unlike the written Constitution of the Mosaic Law's 600+ laws, we are under the 'Law of Christ' - Galatians 6:2; James 1:25; James 2:8
That old Mosiac Law code was temporary - Hebrews 10; Romans 10:4 - whereas the kingly law, or royal law, of Christ is permanent.

Some laws don't really sound like God speaking... like if your bull gores somebody. But still, it's the Laws given to the Jews, and I'm not sure, but I don't think it says the Laws were temporary in their Scriptures. But aren't a lot of the Laws of Jesus pretty much the same as some of the Mosaic Laws? Even to have self-sacrificing love for others? Of course you can say "Yeah, but they didn't practice it." But, how many people in any religion practice self-sacrificing love?

 

[Etritonakin]

Good points ^ above ^. Gospel writer Luke wrote that after the apostles would No longer be on the scene, then 'oppressive wolves, so to speak, would enter among the Christian congregation...... '. That happened at the end of the first century. The apostle Paul warned that from among the congregation men would rise and speak twisted things as to draw away disciples after themselves - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30
That foretold falling away, or starting apostasy, had clearly manifested itself by the end of the first century. - 1 John 2:18-19
So, after the death of the apostles, that falling away blossomed to the point that it gave birth, so to speak, to the modern-day monstrosity called Christendom. Christendom thus adopted non-biblical teachings or dogmas including their ' holy wars ' ( crusades for one ) .
That shows that for centuries faithful worshippers were few - Acts of the Apostles 15:14, but as time progressed to our day that would change to the point that the truth about God's kingdom government in the hands of Christ Jesus is now proclaimed world wide as stated at Matthew 24:14, Acts 1:8.

How would you summarize "the gospel of the kingdom"?

 

[oldbadger]

...............................

Our Spiritual Assemblies are in the developing stage and are far from mature. When they have matured they will be called Houses of Justice but so far there is only the Universal House of Justice in Haifa.

Baha'is are trying their utmost to help humanity rise above wars and conflicts to peace and unity despite our imperfections.

...................... yes.
One day, when strong enough, those Spiritual Assemblies will turn into HOUSES OF JUSTICE, in every locality, and there will be NATIONAL HOUSES OF JUSTICE. And the UNIVERSAL HOUSE OF JUSTICE, which is incapable of error, will govern all, and Bahauallah's laws will be the legislation for the world. A theocracy?

And there will be an International Police Force, and presumably national and local police forces, bringing Bahai laws to all? And the people will be disarmed (including Americans? )

Sadly, anybody who disagrees with these religious laws won't have too much opf a 'say', because only Bahai's will have a vote, and presumably naughty Bahais who voice any severe doubts might lose their voting rights?

Yes...... I begin to see it.............. UNITY!

 

[sunray]

es, agree, we are Not to judge other people. We should Not impute a wrong or bad motive to others.
However, according to Scripture, we are Not to judge God's judgement on His matters as recorded in Scripture.

Yes, God does write His Laws inside on hearts - Romans 2:14-16; Hebrews 10:16
That is because of Jesus' New commandment (law) to have self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus did.- John 13:34-35
So, unlike the written Constitution of the Mosaic Law's 600+ laws, we are under the 'Law of Christ' - Galatians 6:2; James 1:25; James 2:8
That old Mosiac Law code was temporary - Hebrews 10; Romans 10:4 - whereas the kingly law, or royal law, of Christ is permanent.

'However where sin increased grace increased all the more so'; so we enter new times and much has changed over 2000 years, but we know God's plans are forever.
A new spiritual worldview is now possible, but it takes alot of research if you are choosen to understand you will.

 

[loverofhumanity]

...................... yes.
One day, when strong enough, those Spiritual Assemblies will turn into HOUSES OF JUSTICE, in every locality, and there will be NATIONAL HOUSES OF JUSTICE. And the UNIVERSAL HOUSE OF JUSTICE, which is incapable of error, will govern all, and Bahauallah's laws will be the legislation for the world. A theocracy?

And there will be an International Police Force, and presumably national and local police forces, bringing Bahai laws to all? And the people will be disarmed (including Americans? )

Sadly, anybody who disagrees with these religious laws won't have too much opf a 'say', because only Bahai's will have a vote, and presumably naughty Bahais who voice any severe doubts might lose their voting rights?

Yes...... I begin to see it.............. UNITY!

I don't know where you got that information but I've been a Baha'i for 41 years and have not come across anything remotely like that.

If a person does not like the Baha'i Faith they can leave at anytime.

It is not a theocracy either. We do not govern anyone but ourselves. We must obey all governments as Baha'is. International police force? Maybe the UN Peace keeping force will evolve but that has nothing to do with us.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't know where you got that information but I've been a Baha'i for 41 years and have not come across anything remotely like that.

If a person does not like the Baha'i Faith they can leave at anytime.

It is not a theocracy either. We do not govern anyone but ourselves. We must obey all governments as Baha'is. International police force? Maybe the UN Peace keeping force will evolve but that has nothing to do with us.

41 years.......... and you didn't know.
Let me help you......... you wrote that you have never heard of local-houses-of-justice? You yourself referred to the change from lsa to lhj in a previous thread. Because of that I am unable to be sure which parts you have never heard of.... in 41 years.

Please access and read the following websites and then come back and tell me which parts of my previous post still need to be covered and confirmed.

Thankyou......

The Eighth Principle of the Baha'i Faith - Universal Peace upheld by ...
www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/peace.html
The second inevitable requirement of stable peace is national disarmament ... of
internal security only, and the establishment of an international police force.

How theocracy happened « Sen McGlinn's blog
https://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2008/.../how-theocracy-happened/
2 Dec 2008 ... Shoghi Effendi said, "The Baha'i theocracy . . . is both divinely ordained as a
system and, of course, based on the teachings of the Prophet ...
Juan Cole-Fundamentalism in the Contemporary U.S. Baha'i ...
iranscope.ghandchi.com/Anthology/Bahai/fundamentalism.htm
Among Baha'i fundamentalists, this reaction takes the form of a belief in a future
theocracy, in which they expect Baha'i ecclesiastical institutions to take over the ...
Bahai-Faith.com – The Baha'i Faith: A Unitarian Universalist View
www.bahai-faith.com/
6 May 2011 ... By Eric Stetson, former member of the Baha'i Faith community ..... Haifan Baha'
ism includes theocracy as one of it's teachings, but it is far from ...

 

[loverofhumanity]

41 years.......... and you didn't know.
Let me help you......... you wrote that you have never heard of local-houses-of-justice? You yourself referred to the change from lsa to lhj in a previous thread. Because of that I am unable to be sure which parts you have never heard of.... in 41 years.

Please access and read the following websites and then come back and tell me which parts of my previous post still need to be covered and confirmed.

Thankyou......

The Eighth Principle of the Baha'i Faith - Universal Peace upheld by ...
www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/peace.html
The second inevitable requirement of stable peace is national disarmament ... of
internal security only, and the establishment of an international police force.

How theocracy happened « Sen McGlinn's blog
https://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2008/.../how-theocracy-happened/
2 Dec 2008 ... Shoghi Effendi said, "The Baha'i theocracy . . . is both divinely ordained as a
system and, of course, based on the teachings of the Prophet ...
Juan Cole-Fundamentalism in the Contemporary U.S. Baha'i ...
iranscope.ghandchi.com/Anthology/Bahai/fundamentalism.htm
Among Baha'i fundamentalists, this reaction takes the form of a belief in a future
theocracy, in which they expect Baha'i ecclesiastical institutions to take over the ...
Bahai-Faith.com – The Baha'i Faith: A Unitarian Universalist View
www.bahai-faith.com/
6 May 2011 ... By Eric Stetson, former member of the Baha'i Faith community ..... Haifan Baha'
ism includes theocracy as one of it's teachings, but it is far from ...

Now it's clear to me. You're quoting sites opposed to the Baha'i Faith not the official Bahai websites.

This is the official link to the Baha'i Faith. We are about 8 million members. These other sites are not official and are not universal and do not represent the Bahai Faith nor our Holy Shrines in Israel nor any of our Bahai Houses of worship throughout the world.

They are basically a website and that is all.

If you want accurate information about the Baha'i Faith, you can get it below from the official links below.

http://www.bahai.org/?gclid=Cj0KEQj...9NRyKobalY8K6ic8_cpLUaPWpEU7-m-mQsaAuwk8P8HAQ

This is our global community. You ask that website to show you their global community. They are no more than a website.

http://www.bahai.org/national-communities/


The Bahá’í Faith is established in more than 100,000 localities in virtually every country and territory around the world. Below you can find links to the websites of many Bahá’í communities.

The Baha'i Faith at the UN

https://www.bic.org

 

[oldbadger]

Now it's clear to me. You're quoting sites opposed to the Baha'i Faith not the official Bahai websites.

Hang on...... never mind the fact that some of those sites are either neutral or separate from the Bahai Faith. They found out and know about Bahai.

If you want accurate information about the Baha'i Faith, you can get it below from the official links below.

Now.... you send me to one specific site with an address longer than a single page line. This is absolute subjection, and any individual investigation needs to be 'objective' and therefore notice has to be taken of sites which are publishing information about Bahai openly and frankly.

The way that you attempt to guide away from investigators' and ex-bahais and fundamentalist bahais' reports, and only to your favoured views could be construed as indoctrination. All searches should be independant, free and objective.

This is our global community. You ask that website to show you their global community. They are no more than a website.

You don't get it. A single witness should be heard.
John the Baptist was a lone voice, calling out from the desert.
Jesus was a single voice, calling out for justice for all working Jews.

The single voice matters.
Your list cannot smother the single voices of those who found truth.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hang on...... never mind the fact that some of those sites are either neutral or separate from the Bahai Faith. They found out and know about Bahai.


Now.... you send me to one specific site with an address longer than a single page line. This is absolute subjection, and any individual investigation needs to be 'objective' and therefore notice has to be taken of sites which are publishing information about Bahai openly and frankly.

The way that you attempt to guide away from investigators' and ex-bahais and fundamentalist bahais' reports, and only to your favoured views could be construed as indoctrination. All searches should be independant, free and objective.


You don't get it. A single witness should be heard.
John the Baptist was a lone voice, calling out from the desert.
Jesus was a single voice, calling out for justice for all working Jews.

The single voice matters.
Your list cannot smother the single voices of those who found truth.

Yes you make some valid points. But basically I have read the Cole letters and commentaries and even some of his translations and as well the views of those websites that don't agree with the current administration and claim to set their own up.

I just feel sorry that they never really understood the Faith or were not patient and then became antagonistic towards it.

We are human. We make mistakes but if we are expected to be perfect we will never be able to please everyone.

I find the Baha'i Faith and the Universal House of Justice a beautiful Faith with a kind and loving administration.

I am not concerned about the things Cole raises as it's his interpretation, mine is different. Our administration is good to us but we are learning and maturing and it takes time and we make mistakes.
But that is only encouragement to keep trying to perfect our consultative processes as consultation is an art that is learned not automatically acquired. We come from a confrontational and competitive egotistical society so to transform from that society into a loving consultative and compassionate one takes time.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

However, according to Scripture, we are Not to judge God's judgement on His matters as recorded in Scripture.

If a judge judges in a way that seems to contradict specified moral law, I would think as loyalists to that law, we should at least speak up about the issue or else admit that we care only about authority and not about morality.

Yes, God does write His Laws inside on hearts

Good! Then everyone knows what the law is and can ask God why some people seemingly are immune to it.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes you make some valid points. But basically I have read the Cole letters and commentaries and even some of his translations and as well the views of those websites that don't agree with the current administration and claim to set their own up.

I just feel sorry that they never really understood the Faith or were not patient and then became antagonistic towards it.

We are human. We make mistakes but if we are expected to be perfect we will never be able to please everyone.

I find the Baha'i Faith and the Universal House of Justice a beautiful Faith with a kind and loving administration.

I am not concerned about the things Cole raises as it's his interpretation, mine is different. Our administration is good to us but we are learning and maturing and it takes time and we make mistakes.
But that is only encouragement to keep trying to perfect our consultative processes as consultation is an art that is learned not automatically acquired. We come from a confrontational and competitive egotistical society so to transform from that society into a loving consultative and compassionate one takes time.

Firstly I need to apologise to @columbus for posting so far away from his thread title so much. This is the last one, I promise, and I thank him for his patience. And I do believe that there was a Jesus, who walked the Capernaum shoreline, worked for the boatmen and others, who drank and ate with them and tried to initiate a mission. But not Christ!

Loverofhumanity. My recent posts to you have been about what I believe the objective of Bahai is about. You have contended by writing away from that subjrect imo, and then by listing your NSAs and LSAs, guess. Your numbrers can't win a debate about your mission as written by Bahauallah, AbdulBaha and Shogi Effendi!

It's no good to only mention Mr Cole when I included voices such as Sen McGlinn repeating Shogi Effendi:-
How theocracy happened « Sen McGlinn's blog
https://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2008/.../how-theocracy-happened/
2 Dec 2008 ... Shoghi Effendi said, "The Baha'i theocracy . . . is both divinely ordained as a
system and, of course, based on the teachings of the Prophet ...

This has to be my last post here....... I have never before commenced any thread about Bahai, not in years of membership, but I need to consolidate points about Bahai that I have raised. It needs to be threaded in an open section where any interested person, ex-Bahai, Bahai or others can contribute if they wish. Give me a day or more to prepare. If you wish to initiate the thread sooner, fair enough.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Firstly I need to apologise to @columbus for posting so far away from his thread title so much. This is the last one, I promise, and I thank him for his patience. And I do believe that there was a Jesus, who walked the Capernaum shoreline, worked for the boatmen and others, who drank and ate with them and tried to initiate a mission. But not Christ!

Loverofhumanity. My recent posts to you have been about what I believe the objective of Bahai is about. You have contended by writing away from that subjrect imo, and then by listing your NSAs and LSAs, guess. Your numbrers can't win a debate about your mission as written by Bahauallah, AbdulBaha and Shogi Effendi!

It's no good to only mention Mr Cole when I included voices such as Sen McGlinn repeating Shogi Effendi:-
How theocracy happened « Sen McGlinn's blog
https://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2008/.../how-theocracy-happened/
2 Dec 2008 ... Shoghi Effendi said, "The Baha'i theocracy . . . is both divinely ordained as a
system and, of course, based on the teachings of the Prophet ...

This has to be my last post here....... I have never before commenced any thread about Bahai, not in years of membership, but I need to consolidate points about Bahai that I have raised. It needs to be threaded in an open section where any interested person, ex-Bahai, Bahai or others can contribute if they wish. Give me a day or more to prepare. If you wish to initiate the thread sooner, fair enough.

Yes please initiative a thread by all means. As to theocracy, the Baha'i System is not a theocracy like the Catholic Church or the Caliphate which were man made systems. This is the first Divine system ever given to humanity by God so unlike those systems it will solve humanity's problems not cause them.

 

[columbus]

Firstly I need to apologise to @columbus for posting so far away from his thread title so much.

No problemo. I don't get attached to or possessive of internet threads.
Frankly, I don't even like DIRs, unless they really are "Discussion of Individual Religion" threads.
Tom

 

[oldbadger]

No problemo. I don't get attached to or possessive of internet threads.
Frankly, I don't even like DIRs, unless they really are "Discussion of Individual Religion" threads.
Tom

Thankyou. Appreciated. I never go near DIRs myself. Too exclusive for me.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I certainly think Jesus was a real historical figure. There are various theories around on the Resurrection story and I can't tell you for certain what all exactly happened. Those scholars that study the historical Jesus are almost unanimous in their belief this Jesus story is based on a real person. As for your insufficient documentation claim, this was not a time of mass media and literacy. People then 'talked' but that leaves nothing for us now. I think Jesus existed but only a fraction of the story has gotten to us and of that we even have to judge likeliness of accuracy.

I tend to agree. That time Jesus had only a few followers and in the eyes of the authorities, was just the son of a carpenter, hardly worthy of any publicity until that is, His Teachings caught on.

To me the real resurrection was when His ideology caught on and became popular. Word of mouth was the main media tool then unless it was a significant event but the authorities didn't see it of any importance worthy of recording unlike the disciples.

But eventually as His following grew, events were recorded.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes please initiative a thread by all means. As to theocracy, the Baha'i System is not a theocracy like the Catholic Church or the Caliphate which were man made systems. This is the first Divine system ever given to humanity by God so unlike those systems it will solve humanity's problems not cause them.

Didn't God directly tell Moses what he needed to do to set up a God-ordained system? Wasn't God in control of what was going on with the Hebrews? If he was in control, at what point did God lose control?

Jesus came and did things and said things, supposedly fulfilled a bunch of prophecies. His followers believed He rose from the dead and went around preaching that He did. Was God guiding them and telling them what to believe and how to organize a community of believers? Did God guide the Church in Rome to take control of the worldwide body of believers? If God didn't, then was the Christian Church a man-made organization that, from the beginning, was off base on what it was doing and what it was teaching? Can any religious organization truly be guided by God considering how imperfect people have always found a way to corrupt it?

How different is the Baha'i Faith? It is still run by imperfect people. Some have already tried to assume power. How does the Baha'i Faith deal with those people? How will the Baha'i Faith deal with people that refuse to follow Baha'i laws? For instance, those that have alternative lifestyles that the Baha'i Faith considers immoral? God is clear. He hates sexual immorality. So what does God want his people to do with those that continue in their "evil" ways? He told the Hebrews to stone them. Jesus forgave a woman caught in adultery, knowing that her accusers were just as guilty as her, but then told her not to sin no more? Like that is even possible? So knowing how people will continue to commit "moral sin", how is God and the Baha'i Faith going to get people to live "pure" and "holy" lives? Considering that God hasn't been successful yet... even by having them stoned to death.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Didn't God directly tell Moses what he needed to do to set up a God-ordained system? Wasn't God in control of what was going on with the Hebrews? If he was in control, at what point did God lose control?

Jesus came and did things and said things, supposedly fulfilled a bunch of prophecies. His followers believed He rose from the dead and went around preaching that He did. Was God guiding them and telling them what to believe and how to organize a community of believers? Did God guide the Church in Rome to take control of the worldwide body of believers? If God didn't, then was the Christian Church a man-made organization that, from the beginning, was off base on what it was doing and what it was teaching? Can any religious organization truly be guided by God considering how imperfect people have always found a way to corrupt it?

How different is the Baha'i Faith? It is still run by imperfect people. Some have already tried to assume power. How does the Baha'i Faith deal with those people? How will the Baha'i Faith deal with people that refuse to follow Baha'i laws? For instance, those that have alternative lifestyles that the Baha'i Faith considers immoral? God is clear. He hates sexual immorality. So what does God want his people to do with those that continue in their "evil" ways? He told the Hebrews to stone them. Jesus forgave a woman caught in adultery, knowing that her accusers were just as guilty as her, but then told her not to sin no more? Like that is even possible? So knowing how people will continue to commit "moral sin", how is God and the Baha'i Faith going to get people to live "pure" and "holy" lives? Considering that God hasn't been successful yet... even by having them stoned to death.

It will take many generations, much patience and education to raise the moral standards of people.

However, if the Baha'i Community were adversely affected by someone with wrong intent we must protect ourselves. For instance, if a Baha'i has homosexual tendencies and struggles to overcome them then nothing likely would be said. But if that same person were to begin having homosexual parties getting other Baha'is involved that would be when the Baha'i administration would step in as homosexuality is forbidden by our Faith but on a personal level it is fully understood that many Baha'is struggle with it however the line is drawn when they try to involve the wider Baha'i Community or Community.

The same with gambling and drinking. Baha'is may struggle personally and that is understood compassionately but having alcohol parties or sex parties or things like drug parties would be dealt with firmly.

So homosexuals can become Baha'is but they are not to promote it and are encouraged to try to overcome it as it is against Baha'i law.

I was first introduced to the Baha'i Faith by some gay Baha'is and they were the nicest people you could hope to meet. They did have parties but I don't think they involved other Baha'is but I still think that eventually they would have been asked to reconsider the example they were setting for others and maybe lose their good Baha'i status but I have no idea as that was 40 years ago.

In situations where Baha'is will go public against the Baha'i administration on basic Baha'i laws they are asked to reconsider because being a Baha'i entails commitment to Baha'i laws. If one goes online with the intent to defame the Baha'i Community because it won't accept homosexuality then I fully agree that person maybe shouldn't be a Baha'i but has no right to bully us to forego our right of freedom of religion. Such tactics usually result in one losing their 'Baha'i in good standing' status but really, people who feel this strongly should never join the Faith in the first place because we cannot cater for things like drinking, gambling or gay parties etc.

We are a religion seeking to promote a pure, holy and chaste way of life so if people don't like our lifestyle they shouldn't be trying to bully us to accept their demands but go their own way and let us go our way.

The Universal House of Justice, if you read their letters are most patient and tolerant but we can't change our laws to accommodate everyone so sometimes the best thing is for them to go their way and us our way.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

How would you summarize "the gospel of the kingdom"?

The God of the Bible set up a kingdom (government) that will never be destroyed.
God's coming kingdom (thy kingdom come) will Not be passed on to other people ( No change of office )
God's kingdom will crush and put an end to all other kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever.
- see Daniel 2:44-45

When we pick up the newspaper or listen to the news we have a summary of the 'bad news' of men's kingdoms or governments.
When we pick up the Scriptures we read about the 'good news' of God's kingdom government - Matthew 24:14
God's kingdom will be the solution to mankind's woes - Isaiah 9:7; Isaiah 11:6-8; Isaiah 11:9; Isaiah 35

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I tend to agree. That time Jesus had only a few followers and in the eyes of the authorities, was just the son of a carpenter, hardly worthy of any publicity until that is, His Teachings caught on.
To me the real resurrection was when His ideology caught on and became popular. Word of mouth was the main media tool then unless it was a significant event but the authorities didn't see it of any importance worthy of recording unlike the disciples.
But eventually as His following grew, events were recorded.

Weren't all the resurrections that Jesus performed ' real resurrections' real physical resurrections ?_______
To me, Jesus was giving us a preview, or coming attraction, of what he will do during his 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth.
First, No one who lived before Jesus was called to heaven including King David - John 3:13; Acts of the Apostles 2:34
So, they can have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth.

What is unique for our day is that the humble ' sheep ' living at the soon coming 'time of separation' - Matthew 25:31-33,37 - can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth, right into the start of Jesus' millennial reign over Earth when even enemy death will be brought to nothing .
- 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8