No, ‘the Jews’ did not kill Jesus

[firedragon]

The answer is yes and no. The entire event was connected to law. Jesus was in violation of the Old Testament Laws in the eyes of the Jewish leaders. However, Israel was also under Roman rule and they did not wish to have Rome come down on them for violating Roman Civil Law. The Jews needed to come to Pilot to get his permission. Pilot had his own laws to deal with, some of which applied to his own career ambitions. So he took a middle path of maintaining Roman peace, while giving the Jews say in the outcome; diplomatic position designed to satisfy all sides.

If the Jews had a different set of laws, the outcome would have been different. But their law forces them to take a given path or they will be in violation of the same law. Nobody wishes to be exposed and punished as lawless; based on subjective law, even if you know you are doing good based on all measures of objective criteria; innocent man.

With racism, for example, one is required to hate the other race since this is defined by the subjective law as good. To do the right thing in terms of objective human rights, you will become an enemy of the law abiding mob, who will think they are doing good enforcing, the evil that is allowed by the law. Fear of death; both objective and subjective, makes people follow the herd for safety, so bad law prospers and bad decisions are made.

Law is connected to Satan and the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It was not God's first choice. He tries to avoid this choice but once made, humans would suffer from subjective law. It would even be used by man to kill the son of God.

The Bible doesnt say any of that.

 

[firedragon]

It is just not that simple as the Narrative was penned decades after the event. And each author had his own purpose, addressing the needs of his community.
Differences in the arrest of Jesus;
[15] In Mark's Gospel, Jesus prays three times for "this cup to pass me by," but he will do his father's will. Three times he returns to a group of his disciples and finds they cannot keep awake. When arrestors arrive, someone draws a sword and slices off an ear of someone in the arresting party. Mark is very blunt, "All of them abandoned him and fled" (14:50). In Mark's Gospel, Jesus is left utterly alone.
Mark's point would seem to be that just as the disciples dropped everything when they first followed Jesus, so now when danger appears, they drop everything because they cannot get away from him quickly enough. Their faith is shallow.
In Luke's account Jesus prays for the cup to pass him by only once. "When he got up from prayer, he came to the disciples and found them sleeping because of grief". If Luke had a version of Mark as most scholars think, then he clearly has toned down the negative Marcan portrayal of the disciples.
In John Roman soldiers are in the arresting party, for instance. Most importantly, there is no prayer of Jesus wishing that his imminent suffering could be avoided:
Then Jesus, knowing all that was to happen to him, came forward and asked them, "Whom are you looking for?" They answered, "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus replied, "I am he." . . . When Jesus said to them, "I am he," they stepped back and fell to the ground. Again he asked them, "Whom are you looking for?" And they said, "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus answered, "I told you that I am he" (18:4-7).
In the Gospel of John, Jesus is in total control of every scene. He knows what is going to happen. This is because this writer stresses Jesus' divine status. That is why when he says, "I AM," recalling the holy name revealed to Moses in the burning bush, his arrestors all swoon in his divine presence. This would surely be a difficult scene to dramatize without making the arrestors seem clownish. Peter cuts off the servant's ear, Jesus says, "Put your sword back into its sheath. Am I not to drink the cup that the Father has given me?" (18:11). Not only is there no prayer of avoidance in John, but the image of "the cup" is here treated as something that Jesus would drink without question or hesitation: "There is no question that I am going to drink the cup the Father has given me!" This is because of the writer's stress on Jesus as divine and in total control.
A unique aspect of John's account is that Pilate shuttles inside and outside the praetorium, reflecting his inner confusion. As part of his perplexity, Pilate orders Jesus scourged in a futile effort to release him. This is the only Gospel to posit this reason for the scourging. In the synoptics, scourging is simply part of the Roman crucifixion process.

John was written 7 decades later. So obviously the theology has been advanced. Very different to the Markan theology. Thats correct.

The reason I asked that question is because the post contradicts the NT.

 

[Colt]

Confronting these stereotypes is especially important as we move closer to the Passion narratives, in which the complex interplay between “the Jews” (including individuals like Caiaphas and Annas, as well as groups like the Pharisees, scribes and Temple authorities) and the Roman authorities (primarily Pontius Pilate) have given rise to questions about the responsibility for Jesus’s crucifixion. The straightforward answer is the Romans, since only they had the authority to put a person to death, in this case Jesus. Yet centuries of Bible commentaries about the role of “the Jews,” especially in John’s Gospel, gave rise to centuries of deadly sentiments of anti-Judaism (against the Jewish religion) and anti-Semitism (against the Jewish people themselves).
No, ‘the Jews’ did not kill Jesus | America Magazine

The religious authorities in Jesus' day resented his teachings for various reasons. After a number of attempts to discredit Jesus (a fellow Jew) they put him through trumped up trial and the had their occupiers carry out the death penalty because they were forbidden to do so. The Romans had no concern about Jesus' spiritual teachings about a spiritual kingdom.

The Jews of his day killed him in an attempt to get rid of him. Their problems with Jesus had only just begun.

As a result, Israel suffered terribly as Jesus predicted when the day of Gentile vengeance fell upon them under Titus.

But no, the Jews of today bear no responsibility for what their ancestors did.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Jesus was killed by the Roman Pagans who then took over his name to expand their paganism using his name to call it Christian.

 

[Watchmen]

Romans pulled the trigger. Jews gave them the gun and cocked it.

 

[pearl]

The Jews of his day killed him in an attempt to get rid of him.

How can you reconcile that with the fact that Jesus and followers were themselves Jews?

 

[Spiderman]

There is not a Roman or Jew on earth who is guilty of causing Jesus to be arrested or crucified!

 

[Spiderman]

Romans pulled the trigger. Jews gave them the gun and cocked it.

Jesus never died by firing squad, or Christians would wear a rifle around their neck, instead of a cross.

 

[Colt]

How can you reconcile that with the fact that Jesus and followers were themselves Jews?

Because the Jews didn't all think alike. Most rejected Jesus then and now. Previously there were Jews who rejected the prophets as well. Why do you think all the Israelites thought the same way????

 

[PruePhillip]

We will never know the exact details, but he was most likely arrested and executed by the Romans for sedition or something like that. A lot of the stuff in the Bible was made up long after the event, in order to promote a specific narrative.

One thing was fairly certain with Jesus was that both Herod and the Romans did not find Jesus to be
seditious. Events like the 'Feeding of the Five Thousand' where the Jews wanted to make Jesus their
ruler would have been noted - Jesus had no interest in political things. The story of the giving tribute
to Caesar is another example - Jesus was saying the Jews needed to obey the laws of their land.

Fact is, and even the Old Testament refers to this - the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah. More
than this - they took offense at him.

 

[Watchmen]

Jesus never died by firing squad, or Christians would wear a rifle around their neck, instead of a cross.

Did you think my post was literal?

 

[Spiderman]

Did you think my post was literal?

I can't tell if you are asking a serious question, or if you are expecting a joke, or a serious answer from me. Lol. .

I think you seriously wondered if I thought you were being literal, so no, I knew with certainty that you were not being literal. But you did get a chuckle from me.

The idea of Jews loading a gun, cocking it, then handing it to Romans to shoot Jesus, would be a good scene in Jesus Christ superstar play.

 

[Triumph]

Your statement that people who believe "the Father (love) willed Jesus (love) to die, have no love except for themselves", is total falsehood, because I have known people, and known of people, who love God and others, who believe this.

I'm just sharing what the Scriptures say. I don't claim to be an enlightened being that knows the truth, but I know many of the Scriptures , and what they say.

And Jesus said his crucifixion was the cup his Father prepared for him, willed for him to drink.

Isaiah 53 also says that God was pleased to crush his servant with grief, and many Christians believe this verse is about the persecution and death of Christ.

I didn't make up the Scriptures, so please stop accusing me of having no love, for simply sharing what the Bible says , and what many Christians believe, because I know your accusations about me having no love for others, are falsehoods, and I know that with total and complete certainty!

Very kind and intelligent people can believe lies are true and they do. I am accusing no one including YOU. I am just pointing out what most people think about the Words of God is not what Jesus thought. I learned what "I desire mercy and not sacrifice" means and most people do not.. Jesus desires sacrifice and not mercy? NO, he does not! His friends do not want Jesus crucified because they understand sin can not be transposed from a sinner/criminal to an innocent person so the guilt free human is killed as the killer/sinner/ vile lawless person that sinned because they desired to sin not caring what person is hurt/killed as they do it, gets to live.
Letting the criminal go free and killing the innocent of any crime, so the guilty can say they are innocent.... IS SIN, INJUSTICE, INEQUITY.! GOD is NEVER unjust, the guilty are responsible for their actions and will be judged as guilty by God . The innocent are set free to live..
Isaiah 53, Understand above all that GOD is not worshipped by the Jews they worship their LORD= KING with an army to save them. Their weapons are their idols. That is why they exalt David, a killer that killed way beyond what was necessary to win a battle. David killed because David enjoyed killing people and he satanically mutilated the dead to exalt his egotistical, heartless, murderous glory to gain admiration from weak people that were willing to support a heartless killer, thinking he will kill for them not caring how vile and unrighteous the man they exalt actually is. Exalt a liar, deceiver, manipulator, adulterer, murderer, a man that even killed his own son because David was 100% incapable of raising a righteous child, is pathetic and tragic.

You are wrong about the CUP. Jesus passed the CUP to his disciples. Do you think Jesus wanted his friends to be crucified for crimes/sins they did not do, like Jesus was?
That CUP is FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
A true burden to uphold around people that want to kill people for Blasphemy against what they want people to believe. The crime Jesus was accused of is BLASPHEMY! The people accusing Jesus of it were blind to truth, not the people of God, refusing to listen to the Words of God given to them by Jesus.
Jesus was never going to kill them and they knew it ! Jews/Hebrews wanted a man obviously more righteous and powerful than they were to die so their lies of being righteous and powerful would prevail.
Jesus did not want anyone hurt because they were merciful and kind, living around killers that were not merciful and kind.
Always Stand strong for freedom of speech, the cup Jesus drinks from allowing truth to be told, because once it is sacrificed, it does not return .

 

[KWED]

One thing was fairly certain with Jesus was that both Herod and the Romans did not find Jesus to be
seditious. Events like the 'Feeding of the Five Thousand' where the Jews wanted to make Jesus their
ruler would have been noted - Jesus had no interest in political things. The story of the giving tribute
to Caesar is another example - Jesus was saying the Jews needed to obey the laws of their land.

Fact is, and even the Old Testament refers to this - the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah. More
than this - they took offense at him.

The mistake you are making here is to assume that all the stories in the Bible are true. From an historical perspective, they must be treated with extreme scepticism. They are not historical accounts but hagiographical, written by people with a vested interest in promoting a specific agenda.
The only thing even coming close to historical record is that a person who became known a Jesus was executed by the Romans in a manner reserved for enemies of the Empire.

 

[night912]

Confronting these stereotypes is especially important as we move closer to the Passion narratives, in which the complex interplay between “the Jews” (including individuals like Caiaphas and Annas, as well as groups like the Pharisees, scribes and Temple authorities) and the Roman authorities (primarily Pontius Pilate) have given rise to questions about the responsibility for Jesus’s crucifixion. The straightforward answer is the Romans, since only they had the authority to put a person to death, in this case Jesus. Yet centuries of Bible commentaries about the role of “the Jews,” especially in John’s Gospel, gave rise to centuries of deadly sentiments of anti-Judaism (against the Jewish religion) and anti-Semitism (against the Jewish people themselves).
No, ‘the Jews’ did not kill Jesus | America Magazine

Of course the Jews didn't kill Jesus, that's obvious. But I disagree with you about the Romans killing Jesus. This is also obvious because when the Roman soldier stabbed him, he was already dead. This means that neither the Jews nor the Romans killed Jesus. It was in fact, the cross that he was crucified on, that actually killed him.

People need to get their facts straight and stop accusing the Jews and Romans for killing Jesus.

 

[Colt]

My gosh people! The books written by the Israelites contain a number of stories about killing prophets and citizens. We are talking about one prophet/Messiah claimant. They killed many such people that they disagreed with.


Numbers 31
King James Version

31 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the Lord of Midian.

Moses was furious that they spared citizens and brought captives back!

And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

They killed the captives and enslaved the little virgin girls, yet people are defensive about the fact that they killed (1) carpenter from Nazareth??????

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.


16,000 little virgin girls saw they parents and siblings killed by the Israelites and then were themselves distributed around to different places as slaves!

26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:

27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:
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41 And Moses gave the tribute, which was the Lord'S heave offering, unto Eleazar the priest, as the Lord commanded Moses.

42 And of the children of Israel's half, which Moses divided from the men that warred,

43 (Now the half that pertained unto the congregation was three hundred thousand and thirty thousand and seven thousand and five hundred sheep,

44 And thirty and six thousand beeves,

45 And thirty thousand asses and five hundred,

46 And sixteen thousand persons

47 Even of the children of Israel's half, Moses took one portion of fifty, both of man and of beast, and gave them unto the Levites, which kept the charge of the tabernacle of the Lord; as the Lord commanded Moses.

48 And the officers which were over thousands of the host, the captains of thousands, and captains of hundreds, came near unto Moses:

49 And they said unto Moses, Thy servants have taken the sum of the men of war which are under our charge, and there lacketh not one man of us.

50 We have therefore brought an oblation for the Lord, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the Lord.

51 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of them, even all wrought jewels.

52 And all the gold of the offering that they offered up to the Lord, of the captains of thousands, and of the captains of hundreds, was sixteen thousand seven hundred and fifty shekels.

53 (For the men of war had taken spoil, every man for himself.)

54 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tabernacle of the congregation, for a memorial for the children of Israel before the Lord.

 

[rosends]

My gosh people! The books written by the Israelites contain a number of stories about killing prophets and citizens. We are talking about one prophet/Messiah claimant. They killed many such people that they disagreed with.



Moses was furious that they spared citizens and brought captives back!

because they were commanded not to. So this is not at all relevant to a non-command situation.

They killed the captives and enslaved the little virgin girls, yet people are defensive about the fact that they killed (1) carpenter from Nazareth??????

again, soldiers, when commanded by God, killed. But somehow, that's the same as accusations that an entire nation is guilty because (possibly) a small group which wasn't in any control, or responding to a commandment by God, made a recommendation that a political rebel be dealt with by civil authorities. Right...

Did you want to equate any other unrelated events because it makes you happy? Heck, it shouldn't be a problem to accuse Jews during Jesus' time and forward as a whole of anything because in the desert, Moses punched a rock!

 

[pearl]

It was in fact, the cross that he was crucified on, that actually killed him.

So, no responsibility for placing Him on the cross?

 

[night912]

So, no responsibility for placing Him on the cross?

Did he died while being placed on the cross?

Or perhaps it was just a suicide since Jesus carried the cross that he died on.

 

[PruePhillip]

The mistake you are making here is to assume that all the stories in the Bible are true. From an historical perspective, they must be treated with extreme scepticism. They are not historical accounts but hagiographical, written by people with a vested interest in promoting a specific agenda.
The only thing even coming close to historical record is that a person who became known a Jesus was executed by the Romans in a manner reserved for enemies of the Empire.

It might have been reserved for 'enemies of the Empire' but it was used where and when the Romans felt like
using it. And in Jesus' case the Jews specifically asked for it. And as Pilot understood, in Judaea you didn't
want to stir the Jews too much otherwise you are called back to Rome.

But if the bible is not 'true' then neither is, say, Hannibal. This story reads like myth to me - carried across the
Alps on elephants, by allies who rode giant scorpions into battle, and defeated by a man born of the gods.
Same too with many, if not most of history's heros.