• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Nichiren Buddhism and Pure Land Buddhism: a few questions!

DanielR

Active Member
Hi,

okay I think I like chanting so these two schools kind of appeal to me :)

I just wanted to know if Nichiren is really an authentic school of Buddhism or if it was more like a cult. I've heard of SGI (that's what it's called right?) and is there really a strict boundary between it (sgi) and traditional Nichiren? Does Nichiren Buddhism have a bad reputation? And does it 'work'?



Plus I wanted to know what exactly the difference to Pure Land Buddhism is?

I'll probably come up with more questions later! :D


PS: Any Nichiren or PL Buddhists here? ;)
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
I used to be Nichiren Shoshu years ago, before the Sokka Gakkai got involved. It was pretty straightforward: chant and you will get what you want. I decided that it wasn't a religion so much as a cosmic ATM machine, so I left for deeper climes....

Sokka Gakkai has political ties to nationalist Japanese groups, which is why some people disapprove of today's SGI.

In my limited knowledge, the basic thing about Pure Land Buddhism is that chanting is the only requirement for enlightenment and success. I don't pretend to be an expert on that.
 

DanielR

Active Member
thanks,

I'd really like to know more about Pure Land Buddhism then :D

I cannot even find the Sutras here in my country.

The school I'm particularly interested in is the Shin Buddhism school!

;)
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
thanks,

I'd really like to know more about Pure Land Buddhism then :D

I cannot even find the Sutras here in my country.

The school I'm particularly interested in is the Shin Buddhism school!

;)

If you are looking for the Pure Land Sutras, you may want to check out this translation of the shorter and longer Pure Land texts. The translator actually translates each text twice, one translation is taken from a Sanskrit source while the second is taken from a Chinese text. It is cool to see the subtle differences between the two. Nothing really major, certainly nothing that inverts the meaning of anything.

Amazon.com: Land of Bliss, the Paradise of the Buddha of Measureless Light: Sanskrit and Chinese Versions of the Sukhā Vatī Vyū Ha Sutras (Studies in the Buddhist Traditions) (9780824817602): Luis O. Gomez: Books

Also, you may be interested in this book by D.T. Suzuki discussing Shin Buddhism:

Amazon.com: Buddha of Infinite Light: The Teachings of Shin Buddhism, the Japanese Way of Wisdom and Compassion (9781570624568): Daisetz T. Suzuki: Books

Also, check out these books on Shin Buddhism by Taietsu Unno:
River of Fire, River of Water: Taitetsu Unno: 9780385485111: Amazon.com: Books

Shin Buddhism: Bits of Rubble Turn into Gold: Taitetsu Unno: 9780385504690: Amazon.com: Books

I practice Theravada Buddhism; but, I have love for all the Buddhist traditions. I see Pure Land practices as a folk form of Buddhism that has its place within the wider Buddhist world.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
Thanks von bek!!

I've ordered the last three books, still trying to get the Sutras :)!

I think you will really enjoy those books. I hope you are able to locate a copy of "Land of Bliss". I have all of them on my bookshelf except for "Shin Buddhism: Bits of Rubble Turn Into Gold". The Suzuki book is especially good as he demonstrates how Pure Land practice in no way stands in opposition to Zen practice. In China they are not separate traditions, it was in Japan that the traditions became distinct from each other. One reason for this split is that many Buddhists within the Kamakura period began to be convinced that we were living in a degenerate age where the attainment of Nibbana through meditation was no longer possible. Based on this idea, devotional forms of Buddhism began to move center stage in the practice of many Japanese Buddhists.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Wow. Finally someone brought this up :) I practiced Nichiren Buddhism for four years and there are some things about it that look cultish; but it depends on the "denomination."

If you are seriously thinking of believing in the historical Buddha who is the Wisdom (In Mayahana Buddhism, The Buddha is the Wisdom mirrored in ourselves; don't know how Theravada sees it) in yourself, then Nichiren Buddhism wouldn't be a good fit.

Nichiren Diashonin is a Buddhist monk in the Tiantai school (as his teacher is from that school) from Japan. At the time (1800 century) there was a big war in Japan and different Buddhist sects were competing against each other. Each sect focused in different aspects of the Buddhist teachings which Nicherien defined as the Former and Middle Day of the Law. (the Older Buddhist). He thought that the war was centered around his outright rejection of their teachings for that of the Higher teachings of the Buddha (what He said was the only true teachings) the Lotus Sutra.

So to believe in Nichiren Buddhism, you must believe in the Lotus Sutra. To believe and practice the Lotus Sutra is to change Nan Myoho Renge Kyo (I devote myself to the mystic Law of cause and effect) aka life.

The sects:

Nichiren Shoshu. I dislike because they replace the Buddha with Nichiren saying that Nichiren is the reincarnation of the Buddha. It is very formal and if you like dogma and cultured faiths, they have that too.

SGI was a part of ShoShu. They expressed that Nichiren was not a reincarnation; He is a Buddha just like you and I. What I don't care about their practice is their focus on the organization (rather than religion) founder. They do not read from Nichiren's teachings nor do they from any other Buddist teachings included the one their religion is based on, the Lotus Sutra (and the Pali Canons) themselves. Depending on if you're in the states or not, depends on how strict they are because they don't care for Shoshu. Shoshu's priest excommunicated them for not going with their teachings (like protestants to Catholics). So you will get a lot of bias between the two sects. A lot of people are nice, just their history and focus does not mirror the beliefs of Nichiren Himself--which is that of the Buddha.

Nichiren Dishonin's teachings are wonderful, actually. You can read it at: Nichiren Buddhism Library

You can read the Buddha's teachings at: A Complete Buddhist Sutra Collection

I don't know about Pure land teachings. I'm told the structure is somewhat like Christianity. At least it is accommodating to those converting from Christianity. I went to a temple, but haven't gone to any service though.

I still try to honor Nichiren's writings, read more of the Lotus Sutra, and the other Buddha's teachings. I don't associate religiously with SGI but I still have friends there. I rather like Zen. However, I personally believe to be a Buddhist you'd have to go through a ceremony to be one. To be a Buddha, no ceremony is needed. You are already a Buddha. How was it put "kill the Buddha."
Hi,

okay I think I like chanting so these two schools kind of appeal to me :)

I just wanted to know if Nichiren is really an authentic school of Buddhism or if it was more like a cult. I've heard of SGI (that's what it's called right?) and is there really a strict boundary between it (sgi) and traditional Nichiren? Does Nichiren Buddhism have a bad reputation? And does it 'work'?

Plus I wanted to know what exactly the difference to Pure Land Buddhism is?

I'll probably come up with more questions later! :D


PS: Any Nichiren or PL Buddhists here? ;)
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
In China Pure Land practice isn't a separate sect but is pretty much common to every lineage. It looks a bit like Christianity from the outside, and people coming from a liberal/mystical Christian background will probably find much to like. At heart it's a completely orthodox Mahayana practice, so the real goal is practicing the bodhisattva path in order to attain full Buddhahood and save all beings. The Buddha Amitabha is an inspiration and a helper along the way, who will use his powers to remove obstacles so that your practice can proceed as intended. Chanting his name is a way to manifest that power in the world and bring one's mind closer to the Pure Land, which is the Buddha realm of Amitabha, where all obstacles to practice are removed and everyone has everything they need to attain Buddhahood. But in the end it's still on you.

If it helps, one might see Amitabha as the part of us that is not discouraged by difficulties but wants to push through them towards the goal, the part that believes in us even when we seem unworthy or incapable. He is, in a sense, a manifestation of faith that our true nature is pure and undefiled, and that the difficulties of life are just temporary.

Is Amitabha an external being or a part of us? Well, according to Buddhadharma there is ultimately no difference. If belief in Amitabha inspires people to practice diligently, then it can really be transformative. Even in Chan people chant Amituofo or say it instead of cursing or other idle/negative talk. The practice is approved by the wisest teachers as effective. (And it certainly can't hurt.)
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I just wanted to know if Nichiren is really an authentic school of Buddhism or if it was more like a cult. I've heard of SGI (that's what it's called right?) and is there really a strict boundary between it (sgi) and traditional Nichiren? Does Nichiren Buddhism have a bad reputation? And does it 'work'?

There are a great many Nichiren schools (at least in Japan), and it is unadvisable to assume they have similar practices. My sources assure me that such is not the case. Many of them are somewhat at odds with each other.

SGI, specifically, is not exactly a Buddhist school. its history is... complicated, and certainly controversial.


Plus I wanted to know what exactly the difference to Pure Land Buddhism is?

Pure Land Buddhism, at its most academical, focuses on the Vows of Amithaba Buddha, which are both subtle and powerful. The inspiration they encourage is most sublime, when properly taught.

Amitābha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Nichiren Buddhism, of course, is a reference to the priest by that name. I think it is fair to say that there is little consensus among the current groups to claim Nichiren inspiration about what is the core of his teachings. For some it is a fairly traditional Buddhism, for others it is in some sense or another a significant departure from tradition. I would advise you to form your own opinions, to remind yourself that not all Nichiren groups will have compatible views, and to attempt to consider the actual people and whatever actualization of the Dharma they show to have attained.
 

Brendan Liam

New Member
I can tell you 99% of what Carlita said is false. Wildly false.

Carlita said "Nichiren Diashonin is a Buddhist monk in the Tiantai school (as his teacher is from that school) from Japan. At the time (1800 century) there was a big war in Japan and different Buddhist sects were competing against each other. Each sect focused in different aspects of the Buddhist teachings which Nicherien defined as the Former and Middle Day of the Law. (the Older Buddhist). He thought that the war was centered around his outright rejection of their teachings for that of the Higher teachings of the Buddha (what He said was the only true teachings) the Lotus Sutra."

For example, and an ironic one, Nichiren was not of the T'ien T'ai school. Nichiren was of the Nembutsu, or Jodo Shu (pure land school)... he then took the teachings of T'ien T'ai, ie categorization of sutras and declared a new buddhism, consistent with T'ien T'ai. Nichiren himself tells you he invented nothing, including the 3 ages. Those weren't new to Nichiren, but he talked about them a lot-not the same thing at all.

What war are you talking about? There was civil strife, within the leading family... there was Mongolian Imperialism happening... but that's not big war of buddhist sects-what the heck are you talking about?

Carlita said, "Nichiren Diashonin is a Buddhist monk in the Tiantai school (as his teacher is from that school) from Japan. At the time (1800 century) there was a big war in Japan and different Buddhist sects were competing against each other. Each sect focused in different aspects of the Buddhist teachings which Nicherien defined as the Former and Middle Day of the Law. (the Older Buddhist). He thought that the war was centered around his outright rejection of their teachings for that of the Higher teachings of the Buddha (what He said was the only true teachings) the Lotus Sutra.

So to believe in Nichiren Buddhism, you must believe in the Lotus Sutra. To believe and practice the Lotus Sutra is to change Nan Myoho Renge Kyo (I devote myself to the mystic Law of cause and effect) aka life."


so you "practiced for 4 years" yet can't get his name right... can't get his sect right... and can't even get the daimoku right. I've never heard any chant that starts with "Nan"

Many start with "Nam" which is short for "Namas" meaning devotion. And it applies to BOTH sects, one has as the mantra "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo," the other "Nam Amidabutsu."

Extremely different theoretically. Jodo (pure land) is like xianity, it's about escaping this world to a pure land of perfect bliss, by chanting a savior's name (Amita/Amida), an allegorical buddha from the perspective of Nichiren Buddhism.

Carlita said, "The sects:

Nichiren Shoshu. I dislike because they replace the Buddha with Nichiren saying that Nichiren is the reincarnation of the Buddha. It is very formal and if you like dogma and cultured faiths, they have that too.


This is again 100% false

They don't say this at all. First of all, you must understand (and you WOULD if you practiced this for 1 year, much less "four" as you erroneously claim, it looks like you attended a handful of meetings and learned enough jargon to spread a bunch of bad info as I'm showing.... ) the 2 forms of Nichiren from the perspective of his Buddhism. His first form as he claims is "Bodhisattva Jogyo" the leader of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth that appear in the Lotus Sutra. He does indeed claim he is the reincarnation of this bodhisattva. This bodhisattva is never, in any sutra, used by SGI or any Nichiren or any sect, Buddhist or otherwise, claimed to be an incarnation/reincarnation of Buddha.

That said, this is his "transient form." His true form is the "Original Buddha" which is a totally different Buddha than Shakyamuni. It does indeed overshadow him, just as Nichiren's Buddhism (buddhism of sewing) overshadows the original teachings, which are now, in this age (as agreed with by Nichiren, not declared by him) useless, this is the time for the "Buddhism of the Sewing", the Buddhism of Shakyamuni, is the Buddhism of the Harvest, and no longer effective in Mappo. So, back to clarifying all Carlita's false information: Nichiren is just a man, but he is also the True Buddha of Kuon Ganjo, who is supposed to arrive to propagate the sutra...

He himself, just as Shakyamuni, are just men, or were. But they fulfilled these missions. That doesn't make them special, it does make them buddhas. Amida Buddha never existed, he's just a story. Nor would the concept make sense-from the Nichiren perspective, to seek enlightenment outside the self, in Amida or otherwise, is not only escapist, but reverts to non-Buddhism. Pure Land clearly theoretically ignores the core concept of karma.... without karma... it's hard to fathom how it's buddhism.

Carlita said, "SGI was a part of ShoShu. They expressed that Nichiren was not a reincarnation; He is a Buddha just like you and I. What I don't care about their practice is their focus on the organization (rather than religion) founder. They do not read from Nichiren's teachings nor do they from any other Buddist teachings included the one their religion is based on, the Lotus Sutra (and the Pali Canons) themselves. Depending on if you're in the states or not, depends on how strict they are because they don't care for Shoshu. Shoshu's priest excommunicated them for not going with their teachings (like protestants to Catholics). So you will get a lot of bias between the two sects. A lot of people are nice, just their history and focus does not mirror the beliefs of Nichiren Himself--which is that of the Buddha."


SGI believes the same thing as Nichiren Shoshu on this issue, they believe what I said to your last false section. So again, this is false and so very careless. and "They do not read from Nichiren's teachings." This is really idiotic. It was SGI, that originally compiled them all and had them translated... SGI reads from Nichiren's letters and treatises all the time. Every meeting would quote Nichiren and every issue of the magazine, and paper had a huge Gosho (his writings) study in it, if not 2. So this is just a ridiculous lie and now reveals the "i was a member for 4 years" claim to be utter nonsense. They read the Lotus Sutra, they published it for Burton Watson's translation... Toda (2nd president of the Soka Gakkai) has the 2nd and 16th chapter translated and most of his book "Lecture on Buddhism" is nothing but the sutra... and nichiren's teachings. As an SGI member, I recite those same 2 chapters of the Lotus Sutra, every day... yet you say we never study the buddha's teachings or nichirens.

Here is the best translation of his teachings, thanks to SGI, and Nichiren Shoshu, has over 90% of Nichiren's actual letters and treatises.... there should be no question of their legitimacy on original line of Nichiren at least....

This information that was supposedly given by a seasoned SGI member was beyond fallacious, and I can't imagine why someone would blather on and on about a topic they know so little about.... She knows more about Jodo than Nichiren, trust me ;)

Nichiren Buddhism Library

strange... the biggest nichiren library there is.... is on the sgi site.. how could that be Carlita? they ignore his teachings according to you...
 
Last edited:

Vishvavajra

Active Member
He himself, just as Shakyamuni, are just men, or were. But they fulfilled these missions. That doesn't make them special, it does make them buddhas. Amida Buddha never existed, he's just a story. Nor would the concept make sense-from the Nichiren perspective, to seek enlightenment outside the self, in Amida or otherwise, is not only escapist, but reverts to non-Buddhism. Pure Land clearly theoretically ignores the core concept of karma.... without karma... it's hard to fathom how it's buddhism.
Speaking of falsehoods and talking about things one doesn't understand...

If you want to broadcast to the world your lack of understanding of Pure Land practice, that's up to you. But is this DIR thread really the place to come in and start trashing other people's practices, ones that are a good bit more ancient and widely accepted in terms of orthodox Mahayana Buddhism than, say, yours is?

And really, if you can't defend your sect's views without putting down others, that right there tells us all we need to know about them, doesn't it?
 

MyraLee

New Member
Hi,

okay I think I like chanting so these two schools kind of appeal to me :)

I just wanted to know if Nichiren is really an authentic school of Buddhism or if it was more like a cult. I've heard of SGI (that's what it's called right?) and is there really a strict boundary between it (sgi) and traditional Nichiren? Does Nichiren Buddhism have a bad reputation? And does it 'work'?



Plus I wanted to know what exactly the difference to Pure Land Buddhism is?

I'll probably come up with more questions later! :D


PS: Any Nichiren or PL Buddhists here? ;)
 

MyraLee

New Member
Hi Daniel :)
I've been a member of SGI for about 40 years. Love it! It is not a belief system, but a legitimate practice that helps any person find and activate the greater wisdom, joy and infinite life force within oneself (and discover it in others). So, I would say, to me, a Pure Land exists within yourself (not in some location) and thrives as a result of creating good causes and revising misconceptions that cause suffering.

A person can be in a beautiful place, and still feel like they are in hell if a loved one has passed away, for instance. Or, one can be in the middle of a raging storm, and still be in a land of rapture, "singing in the rain", if a new love has been found. It has nothing to do with the location, whether before or after death. It has to do with the state of life, and that state of life can change or be changed instantly without waiting for death.

Personally, I came from a Catholic background which has some similarities to Pure Land with the concept of reaping rewards after death. However, the famous Buddhist symbol of the lotus flower (Renge in the chant Nam Myoho Renge Kyo) symbolizes the truth that cause and effect are actually simultaneous, because both the lotus seeds (causes) and the blossoms (effects) appear simultaneously.

What this means for us is that we don't have to die to reap the effects of our good causes. Those effects are engraved in our lives and will sooner or later manifest in our environment. You don't have to wait until you die or until your next life to attain enlightenment. Good News!

Though it's important to study philosophy, study alone doesn't reveal how exactly the practice will affect our lives, just like reading a cook book doesn't satisfy hunger or tell us exactly how a concoction will taste. I highly recommend trying the practice out, and if you don't like it, quit and try something else.

All the best to you on your journey!
www.sgi-usa.org www.sgi.org
 
Top