Nicene Creed

[truseeker]

Can anyone help me understand something in the Nicene Creed? One line says "we believe in one lord, Jesus Christ" A little later another line says "we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord" So Jesus is the one lord but the Holy Spirit is the Lord. How can there be only one lord if both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the lord? Is there some easy way to understand this or is it just another example of religious mumbo jumbo where you say whatever you want and don't worry about what it means?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Can anyone help me understand something in the Nicene Creed? One line says "we believe in one lord, Jesus Christ" A little later another line says "we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord" So Jesus is the one lord but the Holy Spirit is the Lord. How can there be only one lord if both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the lord? Is there some easy way to understand this or is it just another example of religious mumbo jumbo where you say whatever you want and don't worry about what it means?

This is the concept of the Trinity. The Son, The Father and the Holy Ghost are the Trinity which makes up the Godhead. In otherwords they are all the same thing: God. This is why Jesus is considered God in the flesh and divine. Those who reject this idea and consider the Trinity as three separate beings instead of three representations of God, are considered Anti-Trinitarians and Heretics. Unitarian Christians are such a group.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The anglican translation is as follows;
( though it is usual to use the Appostles cread in services today. I have put it underneath)

I believe in one God the Father Almighty,Maker of heaven and earth,And of all things visible and invisible:And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God,Begotten of his Father before all worlds,God of God, Light of Light,Very God of very God,Begotten, not made,Being of one substance with the Father,By whom all things were made;Who for us men, and for our salvation came down from heaven,And was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary,And was made man,And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate.He suffered and was buried,And the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures,And ascended into heaven,And sitteth on the right hand of the Father.And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead:Whose kingdom shall have no end.And I believe in the Holy Ghost,The Lord and giver of life,Who proceedeth from the Father and the Son,Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified,Who spake by the Prophets.And I believe one Catholick and Apostolick Church.I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.And I look for the Resurrection of the dead,And the life of the world to come.Amen.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Appostles Creed[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I BELIEVE[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]in God, the Father almighty,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]creator of heaven and earth.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and born of the Virgin Mary.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He suffered under Pontius Pilate,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]was crucified, died, and was buried.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He descended to the dead.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]On the third day he rose again.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He ascended into heaven,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and is seated at the right hand of the Father.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He will come again to judge the living and the dead.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I believe in the Holy Spirit,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the holy catholic Church,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the communion of saints,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the forgiveness of sins,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the resurrection of the body,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and the life everlasting. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Amen.[/FONT]

 

[Skwim]

This is the concept of the Trinity. The Son, The Father and the Holy Ghost are the Trinity which makes up the Godhead. In otherwords they are all the same thing: God. This is why Jesus is considered God in the flesh and divine. Those who reject this idea and consider the Trinity as three separate beings instead of three representations of God, are considered Anti-Trinitarians and Heretics. Unitarian Christians are such a group.

Only among the trinitarians.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Only among the trinitarians.

Didn't I cover that in my post?

 

[Skwim]

Didn't I cover that in my post?

I reject the idea of the trinity as three separate beings, but don't considered the anti-trinitarians as heretics. Of course, I also reject the idea of the trinity as three representations of God.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I reject the idea of the trinity as three separate beings, but don't considered the anti-trinitarians as heretics. Of course, I also reject the idea of the trinity as three representations of God.

Mainstream Christian definition of heresy is the rejection of the Nicene Creed, therefore all anti-trinitarians are labeled as heretics. Even though heretical versions of Christianity are now tolerated, they still retain the label.

 

[Skwim]

Mainstream Christian definition of heresy is the rejection of the Nicene Creed,

Aside from moving the goal posts, what is your source for this definition? Got a link?

therefore all anti-trinitarians are labeled as heretics.

As an agnostic, I'm anti-trinitarian. Am I a heretic? Are Buddhists heretics? How about Jews, are they heretics?

 

[fallingblood]

Mainstream Christian definition of heresy is the rejection of the Nicene Creed, therefore all anti-trinitarians are labeled as heretics. Even though heretical versions of Christianity are now tolerated, they still retain the label.

But the term heretic really has lost much of its meaning in modern times. I don't know if even more mainstream Christians would define anti-trinitarians as heretics, as it really isn't part of their ideas. That is besides Catholics, who really define heresy as they are the "orthodox" Church. And even many Catholics wouldn't label others as heretics.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

But the term heretic really has lost much of its meaning in modern times. I don't know if even more mainstream Christians would define anti-trinitarians as heretics, as it really isn't part of their ideas. That is besides Catholics, who really define heresy as they are the "orthodox" Church. And even many Catholics wouldn't label others as heretics.

Very true, the term isn't used much these days. But just because few people remember the classical definition, doesn't mean it doesn't apply. The question is about the Nicene Creed and we were discussing the difference between Trinitarians and Anti-Trinitarians. In the context of the Nicene Creed, the classical definition is what fits.

 

[Muffled]

Can anyone help me understand something in the Nicene Creed? One line says "we believe in one lord, Jesus Christ" A little later another line says "we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord" So Jesus is the one lord but the Holy Spirit is the Lord. How can there be only one lord if both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the lord? Is there some easy way to understand this or is it just another example of religious mumbo jumbo where you say whatever you want and don't worry about what it means?

The Father, Jesus and the Paraclete (Holy Spirit) are one Lord.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Can anyone help me understand something in the Nicene Creed? One line says "we believe in one lord, Jesus Christ" A little later another line says "we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord" So Jesus is the one lord but the Holy Spirit is the Lord. How can there be only one lord if both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the lord? Is there some easy way to understand this or is it just another example of religious mumbo jumbo where you say whatever you want and don't worry about what it means?

The Trinity is expressed within the Nicene Creed.

the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen..... one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made.... We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified.

See, you shouldn't have stoped reading after "Holy Spirit, the Lord" because then you miss the understanding.

As for being religious mumbo jumbo, as you eloquently put it, I'd say no. Its a belief that has been expressed for centuries.

And easy way to understand the Trinity is to think of a clover.

Or if you are a serious dude, read what the teaching on the Trinity actually is. Good place to start be the Catechism.


Its a bit of reading. Though Id like to add the input in the YouCat, which is a Catechism in Q&A form, developed for Youth, but works great for all ages.

35; Do we believe in one God or in three Gods?

Answer;
We believe in one God in three persons (Trinity). "God is not soliture but perfect communion.: (Pope Benedict XVI, May 22, 2005).[232-236,249-256,261,265-266] (I will post these from the Catechism then)

Explanation;
Christians do not worship three different Gods, but one single Being that is threefold and yet remains one. We know that God is triune from Jesus Christ: He, the son, speaks about his Father in heaven ("I and the Father are one" Jn 10:30). He prays to him and sends us the Holy Spirit, who is the love of the Father and the Son. That is why we are baptized "in the name of the Fahter and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt 28:19).

 

[Muffled]

The Trinity is expressed within the Nicene Creed.

the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen..... one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made.... We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified.

See, you shouldn't have stoped reading after "Holy Spirit, the Lord" because then you miss the understanding.

As for being religious mumbo jumbo, as you eloquently put it, I'd say no. Its a belief that has been expressed for centuries.

And easy way to understand the Trinity is to think of a clover.

Or if you are a serious dude, read what the teaching on the Trinity actually is. Good place to start be the Catechism.

However that view of the creed is not what is in the Niocene creed but what is in the Athanasian creed and it is not supportable from the Bible.

 

[JacobEzra.]

232 Christians are baptized "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"53 Before receiving the sacrament, they respond to a three-part question when asked to confess the Father, the Son and the Spirit: "I do." "The faith of all Christians rests on the Trinity."54
233 Christians are baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: not in their names,55 for there is only one God, the almighty Father, his only Son and the Holy Spirit: the Most Holy Trinity.
234 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, the light that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the "hierarchy of the truths of faith".56 The whole history of salvation is identical with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, reveals himself to men "and reconciles and unites with himself those who turn away from sin".57
235 This paragraph expounds briefly (I) how the mystery of the Blessed Trinity was revealed, (II) how the Church has articulated the doctrine of the faith regarding this mystery, and (III) how, by the divine missions of the Son and the Holy Spirit, God the Father fulfills the "plan of his loving goodness" of creation, redemption and sanctification.
236 The Fathers of the Church distinguish between theology (theologia) and economy (oikonomia). "Theology" refers to the mystery of God's inmost life within the Blessed Trinity and "economy" to all the works by which God reveals himself and communicates his life. Through the oikonomia the theologia is revealed to us; but conversely, the theologia illuminates the whole oikonomia. God's works reveal who he is in himself; the mystery of his inmost being enlightens our understanding of all his works. So it is, analogously, among human persons. A person discloses himself in his actions, and the better we know a person, the better we understand his actions.





249 From the beginning, the revealed truth of the Holy Trinity has been at the very root of the Church's living faith, principally by means of Baptism. It finds its expression in the rule of baptismal faith, formulated in the preaching, catechesis and prayer of the Church. Such formulations are already found in the apostolic writings, such as this salutation taken up in the Eucharistic liturgy: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."81
250 During the first centuries the Church sought to clarify her Trinitarian faith, both to deepen her own understanding of the faith and to defend it against the errors that were deforming it. This clarification was the work of the early councils, aided by the theological work of the Church Fathers and sustained by the Christian people's sense of the faith.
251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: "substance", "person" or "hypostasis", "relation" and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, "infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand".82
252 The Church uses (I) the term "substance" (rendered also at times by "essence" or "nature") to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term "person" or "hypostasis" to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term "relation" to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.


The dogma of the Holy Trinity
253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85
254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.
255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91
256 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called "the Theologian", entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:

Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . .92 261 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and of Christian life. God alone can make it known to us by revealing himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.



265 By the grace of Baptism "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", we are called to share in the life of the Blessed Trinity, here on earth in the obscurity of faith, and after death in eternal light (cf. Paul VI, CPG § 9).
266 "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy Spirit's another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).

 

[JacobEzra.]

However that view of the creed is not what is in the Niocene creed but what is in the Athanasian creed and it is not supportable from the Bible.

It is laid out in the Nicene Creed. Not all together in bold way, but it practically says it, as I had shown. And It is supportable from the bible.

 

[Renji]

I'll give this a shot. (this is kinda patterned from the Apostle's Creed):

-We believe in God, the Father almighty, the maker of all things, visible and invisible (1 Corinthians 8:6 "...yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.")
-We believe in Jesus Christ, His Son, our Lord and Savior (Romans5:8 "But God commendeth his love towards us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.")
-Jesus was conceived in the womb of Virgin Mary (Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with a child and bear a son, and name him Immanuel (God with us)") by the power of the Holy Spirit, which was declared to her by angel Gabriel( Luke1:26-28,35 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” ... The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God..)
-He (Jesus) suffered under Pontius Pilate and crucified to redeem our sins ( Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.).
-After the third day he rose again (Matthew:28:5,6But the angel answered and said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.
"He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.")
-He (Jesus) ascended into heaven and sit at the right hand of the father ( Mark 16:19 "So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God (the Father).")
-He (Jesus) will come again to judge the living and the dead (John 14:2-3 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also” Revelation 19:11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war")
-We believe in the Holy Spirit, our guide, the advocate, the comforter, intercessor . (John 14:16,17" And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever: The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, nor knows him. But you shall know him; because he shall abide with you and shall be in you.")
-The holy Catholic Church, founded by Christ through Peter as its rock (Matthew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.")
-Lastly, we believe in"Communion of Saints, forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of body and life everlasting."

 

[Kathryn]

Newsflash - if someone is adamantly opposed to the idea of the Trinity, then they simply will not be "able" to understand the Nicene or Apostles Creed.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Newsflash - if someone is adamantly opposed to the idea of the Trinity, then they simply will not be "able" to understand the Nicene or Apostles Creed.

What makes you say that? I understand it just fine, I still don't believe it. Surely you aren't one of those who says "If you truly understood, then you would agree with me".

 

[Kathryn]

What makes you say that? I understand it just fine, I still don't believe it. Surely you aren't one of those who says "If you truly understood, then you would agree with me".

Let me rephrase that - the Nicene Creed won't make any logical sense to someone who isn't Trinitarian. They may be able to understand the doctrine but they will not be convinced of it's validity. So there's not much point in really trying to explain it and hope they somehow "get it."

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Let me rephrase that - the Nicene Creed won't make any logical sense to someone who isn't Trinitarian. They may be able to understand the doctrine but they will not be convinced of it's validity. So there's not much point in really trying to explain it and hope they somehow "get it."

Riiiiight, if I have to explain it you wouldn't understand. Sorry but I totally disagree with you. I'm anti-trinitarian but I feel I have total understanding of the concept and how it came about. Just because I believe that the Trinity is comprised of three separate beings rather than God divided into three avatars doesn't mean I can't "get it".