Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[Dan From Smithville]

You say atheists do not find a reason to believe, what is it they do not believe in?

Whatever they find no evidence for I suppose. Deities in the case of atheism. Abigfootism in my case.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

No I do not believe everything anyone tells me just because they believe, generally I get a feel for where they are coming from and based on that I will either engage further or let it go. Iow, I allow people to evolve according to where they are, people are not equal.

That would establish trust, but trustworthy people can believe in things that are wrong.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

You say atheists do not find a reason to believe, what is it they do not believe in?

Let us drift back to NDE's. Among all the material that I have seen regarding the subject, I have seen nothing that leads me to believe that they are more than interesting physical phenomenon associated most closely with brain stress. Testimonials are evidence that someone had an experience. I am not discounting the claim of an experience on its face. It is the conclusions that some make regarding the experience that I have see no reason to believe. Just as an atheist sees no reason to believe in God and testimonials are seen as evidence of what the person testifying believes and not as evidence that demonstrates what is believed in. I can tell them about the Bible, about Jesus and about subjective experiences I may have had, but that is not very compelling as evidence that God exists. It is evidence about me and what I believe.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Having no evidence to believe in God does not change atheism to lack of belief in something else. It is a very open-minded position as far as I can tell.

I am fascinated with mythological beasts like Bigfoot. I have seen no evidence that leads me to believe Bigfoot or something like that exists. But I don't say that the do not exist. They could. In one, I expressing the fact of lack of viable evidence leaving no reason to believe. In the other I am making a positive claim that would need to be supported.

If atheists believe there is no evidence for a reality represented by the concept of God, they are rejecting the existence of that reality! Playing word games does not alter reality, atheists reject the existence of a reality represented by the concept of God.

 

[We Never Know]

Near Death experiences are Testable (so lets test them)

Near Death Experiences (NDE) is a topic that I find fascinating, but for whatever reason (procrastination) I haven’t done any detailed research

But before doing any research I would like to know if I am applying the scientific method correctly.

· If there are verified examples of NDE I will conclude that NDE are probably real.

With this I mean that if the guy who had this experience most be capable of providing information about the external world that he could have not known before or during his “coma”

For example if he has an NDE in the hospital and he went to the room above and he provides an accurate description of who was in that room, what clothes where they using, what where they talking about etc. NDE should be considered real.

If such examples are inexistent then alleged NDE are probably just dreams or hallucinations.

So the next step is to do some research and see if there are verifiable examples of NDEs

So before doing the research would you add something? appart from verifiable examples would you add something else.

From NCBI...

Conclusion..
"The combination of the preceding nine lines of evidence converges on the conclusion that near-death experiences are medically inexplicable. Any one or several of the nine lines of evidence would likely be reasonably convincing to many, but the combination of all of the presented nine lines of evidence provides powerful evidence that NDEs are, in a word, real."

Full article here
Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That would establish trust, but trustworthy people can believe in things that are wrong.

Of course they can and do, all the time. But I don't 'throw the baby out with the bathwater', humans are all having experiences of all kinds and growing as a result. And ironically we learn most when we make and subsequently try and correct our errors.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

No I do not believe everything anyone tells me just because they believe, generally I get a feel for where they are coming from and based on that I will either engage further or let it go. Iow, I allow people to evolve according to where they are, people are not equal.

My father passed away years ago when I was still in college. Over the next 17 years, when my mother or siblings had company over that stayed the night, the question of who the man upstairs or in the other room was came up several times. It was explained that there was no one there. When these visitors described the man it was always the same and always a description that fit my father including his propensity for wearing white tee shirts. My ex-wife described waking up after falling asleep in a chair in my mother's house. When she awoke there was a man crouching near her staring at her. She got a fright. The man just walked out of the room and was no where to be found. Later when she told me about it, her description fit my father to a tee.

I can think of a reasonable explanation that fits the facts. Even for guests that had never met my father. We loved my dad, so we talked about him. Probably described him on more than one occasion. There were pictures of him in the home. We may have mentioned some of the early stories or talked about ghosts. The human imagination being what it is, they could have filled in the rest or been having dreams. Perhaps it depended on the person and how willing they were to believe. I never saw him after his funeral. There were others that never saw or experienced anything unusual.

Is this evidence for ghosts or life after death? It could be. I couldn't claim it isn't. But I have no reason to believe my father was haunting my family home. But maybe. It is an interesting anecdote that has no value as evidence for an afterlife, since it cannot be tested and other logical explanations cannot be excluded.

Still, a part of me wants to believe and I can. I just can't expect to convince somebody of it, because I lack evidence.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Of course they can and do, all the time. But I don't 'throw the baby out with the bathwater', humans are all having experiences of all kinds and growing as a result. And ironically we learn most when we make and subsequently try and correct our errors.

Learning and growing are one reason I participate in some of these threads. Also fun.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Whatever they find no evidence for I suppose. Deities in the case of atheism. Abigfootism in my case.

So they look for evidence of a reality represented by the concept of Gods and can't find any, as a result they reject the existence of any reality represents by Deities/Gods.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

So they look for evidence of a reality represented by the concept of Gods and can't find any, as a result they reject the existence of any reality represents by Deities/Gods.

You really should talk to an atheist about this. They can explain themselves better than a Christian that understands their logic. It isn't a question of actively looking to find reasons not to believe, though some atheists do that.

If someone claims that God exists, it is reasonable in my mind that there are those that would ask how that is known. Keeping in mind that no believer in God has ever been able to demonstrate His existence objectively, on that basis, they express no reason to believe in God.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

So they look for evidence of a reality represented by the concept of Gods and can't find any, as a result they reject the existence of any reality represents by Deities/Gods.

Is it a question of semantics that you are asking?

As a Christian, I do not believe in Thor. I have no reason to believe in Thor. That pretty much ends it for me. I am not actively looking for evidence of Thor or denying every claim of Thor's existence. Not believing in Thor is not the same as rejecting the existence of Thor. Perhaps he was an alien that visited out planet a long time ago and some people believed he was a god, because of his technology. Of course, I have no reason to believe that either.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

My father passed away years ago when I was still in college. Over the next 17 years, when my mother or siblings had company over that stayed the night, the question of who the man upstairs or in the other room was came up several times. It was explained that there was no one there. When these visitors described the man it was always the same and always a description that fit my father including his propensity for wearing white tee shirts. My ex-wife described waking up after falling asleep in a chair in my mother's house. When she awoke there was a man crouching near her staring at her. She got a fright. The man just walked out of the room and was no where to be found. Later when she told me about it, her description fit my father to a tee.

I can think of a reasonable explanation that fits the facts. Even for guests that had never met my father. We loved my dad, so we talked about him. Probably described him on more than one occasion. There were pictures of him in the home. We may have mentioned some of the early stories or talked about ghosts. The human imagination being what it is, they could have filled in the rest or been having dreams. Perhaps it depended on the person and how willing they were to believe. I never saw him after his funeral. There were others that never saw or experienced anything unusual.

Is this evidence for ghosts or life after death? It could be. I couldn't claim it isn't. But I have no reason to believe my father was haunting my family home. But maybe. It is an interesting anecdote that has no value as evidence for an afterlife, since it cannot be tested and other logical explanations cannot be excluded.

Still, a part of me wants to believe and I can. I just can't expect to convince somebody of it, because I lack evidence.

I am not surprised at your story, I have one too.
I was on holidays with my wife and was visiting an old 19th century built jailhouse in a port city that had only recently been closed and was being prepared for tourists, I drew away from the crowd and entered a closed off section not yet open to the public, I came across a padded cell with the door ajar so I went in. I was taking it in and imagining the suffering that probably took place there when I felt someone was looking at me. I swung my head around and there was a shimmering greyish misty human form which appeared to get as big a fright as I did when our eyes met, I literally nearly died of fright at the same time as it fled from doorway where it had been blocking my only exit from the cell. After some time I went outside and looked around but no further contact, not that I wanted any.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Is it a question of semantics that you are asking?

As a Christian, I do not believe in Thor. I have no reason to believe in Thor. That pretty much ends it for me. I am not actively looking for evidence of Thor or denying every claim of Thor's existence. Not believing in Thor is not the same as rejecting the existence of Thor. Perhaps he was an alien that visited out planet a long time ago and some people believed he was a god, because of his technology. Of course, I have no reason to believe that either.

I not asking, I'm explaining in common language that atheists reject God, period.. I don't play word games!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You really should talk to an atheist about this. They can explain themselves better than a Christian that understands their logic. It isn't a question of actively looking to find reasons not to believe, though some atheists do that.

If someone claims that God exists, it is reasonable in my mind that there are those that would ask how that is known. Keeping in mind that no believer in God has ever been able to demonstrate His existence objectively, on that basis, they express no reason to believe in God.

I can explain objectively but atheists do not believe, God is all that exists, known and unknown.

 

[rational experiences]

The reality what is God is the subject.

If you don't explain what God is in life as the human taught concept then occultist theists with machines will destroy us.

They believe they have the explanation as science. The state. Science is God a calculus. Then they change their mind...no it is an energy. As the theist is theorising everywhere.

In common sense life is a natural human is the truth. Alive first.

Not to sway you from spirituality but to make you face yourselves.

Just a human only.

If a human cannot except that science conjured a supernatural effect. Then why preach its reality for years and years?

Fact...phenomena is a living humans experience only.

The fact just accept that it is. You don't own anyone an explanation as it just happens.

If the living claim I can explain phenomena. The question is why?

For men of science the past is God concepts thinking back. To those men it is a claim then I will know God. We do not live in the past. Human death does.

Do you begin to realise what they are looking for?

If I know how life was created then I own the answer and greatest power to wield against everyone. As a thesis.

The psyche mind history. A man. Agreement of human advice men. Men building machines inventions as weapons.

If it were simply about technology and resources no man would own any theory about a machine and a human and resources by converting.

It is not common sense to infer a human to a resource.

As man's reality. What do you think you are looking for in my life death?

The truth not any God.

 

[rational experiences]

My father passed away years ago when I was still in college. Over the next 17 years, when my mother or siblings had company over that stayed the night, the question of who the man upstairs or in the other room was came up several times. It was explained that there was no one there. When these visitors described the man it was always the same and always a description that fit my father including his propensity for wearing white tee shirts. My ex-wife described waking up after falling asleep in a chair in my mother's house. When she awoke there was a man crouching near her staring at her. She got a fright. The man just walked out of the room and was no where to be found. Later when she told me about it, her description fit my father to a tee.

I can think of a reasonable explanation that fits the facts. Even for guests that had never met my father. We loved my dad, so we talked about him. Probably described him on more than one occasion. There were pictures of him in the home. We may have mentioned some of the early stories or talked about ghosts. The human imagination being what it is, they could have filled in the rest or been having dreams. Perhaps it depended on the person and how willing they were to believe. I never saw him after his funeral. There were others that never saw or experienced anything unusual.

Is this evidence for ghosts or life after death? It could be. I couldn't claim it isn't. But I have no reason to believe my father was haunting my family home. But maybe. It is an interesting anecdote that has no value as evidence for an afterlife, since it cannot be tested and other logical explanations cannot be excluded.

Still, a part of me wants to believe and I can. I just can't expect to convince somebody of it, because I lack evidence.

Our life gets recorded by the state atmosphere but it is water cooled. When science burns our atmosphere old memories re emerge as they cool. Are seen then disappear.

I've seen old memories re emerge. The house I live in one hundred years old. I saw a lady wearing period costume walk down the hall. Disappeared.

It was just a memory.

Now if you ask how does evil human memories emerge it's because science keeps burning the atmosphere on purpose in experiments. As humans are not any evil spirit.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Disbelief is not proof, what objective evidence do you have to prove aliens do not exist?

I didn't claim aliens don't exist.

You should pay more attention.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Sure it is a claim, a claim that there is no God!

I just explained to you, in the very post you are replying to, that it isn't.

Again, you should pay more attention.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So now you tell me that I did not experience the experience I experienced.

If you did, you certainly didn't comprehend it.
Considering the last two posts of yours I responded to, I'm guessing it's another instance of you not paying attention. You should pay more attention.

 

[Lekatt]

I know it is hard for some to believe NDEs are real because of many things. This might help a little.