Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[leroy]

Near Death experiences are Testable (so lets test them)

Near Death Experiences (NDE) is a topic that I find fascinating, but for whatever reason (procrastination) I haven’t done any detailed research

But before doing any research I would like to know if I am applying the scientific method correctly.

· If there are verified examples of NDE I will conclude that NDE are probably real.

With this I mean that if the guy who had this experience most be capable of providing information about the external world that he could have not known before or during his “coma”

For example if he has an NDE in the hospital and he went to the room above and he provides an accurate description of who was in that room, what clothes where they using, what where they talking about etc. NDE should be considered real.

If such examples are inexistent then alleged NDE are probably just dreams or hallucinations.

So the next step is to do some research and see if there are verifiable examples of NDEs

So before doing the research would you add something? appart from verifiable examples would you add something else.

 

[epronovost]

For example if he has an NDE in the hospital and he went to the room above and he provides an accurate description of who was in that room, what clothes where they using, what where they talking about etc. NDE should be considered real.

That might be insufficient or inconclusive. The description would have to be very precise and the content of that room both priory unknown. Its relatively easy to make an approximate guess of who or what one should see in a hospital room. Most people in hospital beds are elderly people in hospital jackets attended by nurses and doctors (many of which might have already been seen by the person having a NDE).

Also, NDE is a general term and not all people who report to have had one have reported to physically leave their body and go into other rooms and the like. Many report a variety of hallucination from various senses, vivid dreams, bright flashes of light, etc. There is no such thing as a "one size fits all" type of NDE.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Near Death experiences are Testable (so lets test them)

Near Death Experiences (NDE) is a topic that I find fascinating, but for whatever reason (procrastination) I haven’t done any detailed research

But before doing any research I would like to know if I am applying the scientific method correctly.

· If there are verified examples of NDE I will conclude that NDE are probably real.

With this I mean that if the guy who had this experience most be capable of providing information about the external world that he could have not known before or during his “coma”

For example if he has an NDE in the hospital and he went to the room above and he provides an accurate description of who was in that room, what clothes where they using, what where they talking about etc. NDE should be considered real.

If such examples are inexistent then alleged NDE are probably just dreams or hallucinations.

So the next step is to do some research and see if there are verifiable examples of NDEs

So before doing the research would you add something? appart from verifiable examples would you add something else.

Usually I think the brain is desperate for oxygen, so I think it produces as vivid of imagination as possible to try to survive.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Usually I think the brain is desperate for oxygen, so I think it produces as vivid of imagination as possible to try to survive.

That's the scientific consensus.

There is not a single scientific paper concluding NDEs as a valid proof of out of body experiencees aside from what is said in your post.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

IMHO.

There is so much that can not be explained with many NDE's except to conclude they were in another reality looking back at this reality.

My wife has had a couple and there is no other explanation but that of a spiritual reality outside of the body.

It matters not what science offers on this subject as there are just some things that are taken on Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[sun rise]

That might be insufficient or inconclusive. The description would have to be very precise and the content of that room both priory unknown. Its relatively easy to make an approximate guess of who or what one should see in a hospital room. Most people in hospital beds are elderly people in hospital jackets attended by nurses and doctors (many of which might have already been seen by the person having a NDE).

Also, NDE is a general term and not all people who report to have had one have reported to physically leave their body and go into other rooms and the like. Many report a variety of hallucination from various senses, vivid dreams, bright flashes of light, etc. There is no such thing as a "one size fits all" type of NDE.

First, yes, my reading also indicates there are different kinds of NDEs some indeed being not a true OOBE/NDE but hallucinations etc.

There is documentation that people know what they had no way of knowing going on in a different room. There's one case reported here Can Science Explain Near Death Experiences? about vision from a specific perspective.

There's also a lengthy paper asking whether or not people who were blind from birth had vision during an NDE or not. If you even skim the paper as I did, you'll see that they went to great lengths to carefully examine the question and including conflating possibilities such as what is called "blindsight" and the difficulty for some to even know if what they experienced was what we know of as sight. https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc799333/m2/1/high_res_d/vol16-no2-101.pdf

 

[sun rise]

There's also this review of a very interesting case. Note for those that don't know "veridical" means true in a propositional calculus (scientific) sense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veridicality

Corroboration of the Dentures Anecdote Involving Veridical Perception in a Near-Death Experience https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1074.5800&rep=rep1&type=pdf

ABSTRACT: One of the most striking examples of near-death experience
stories is the account of a clinically dead patient whose dentures were removed
from his mouth prior to resuscitation, and which dentures were then lost.
Days later the patient saw a nurse and told him that it was he who had
removed those dentures. The patient was right, but he should not have known
this information, because at the time the nurse had removed his dentures, the
patient was clinically dead. Since publication of this account in a prestigious
mainstream medical journal, speculations have abounded. In this article I
describe the investigation I undertook to put these speculations to rest and the
outcome of that investigation.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I am in a perpetual near death experience all the time.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Usually I think the brain is desperate for oxygen, so I think it produces as vivid of imagination as possible to try to survive.

except the movie, "Heaven is for real."

 

[Alex22]

I wonder why people who have NDE's of other cultures never have them of Jesus besides Americans/Europeans, Muslims have NDE"s about Allah and Mohammed, Hindu's have them of Shiva, Vishnu etc and Buddhists have them of the the Buddha and pagans have them of their gods. Nde's can be better explained through Neurology then religion even though there's plenty of Christian websites that say they are proof of Jesus etc which is rubbish.

 

[George-ananda]

Near Death experiences are Testable (so lets test them)

Near Death Experiences (NDE) is a topic that I find fascinating, but for whatever reason (procrastination) I haven’t done any detailed research

But before doing any research I would like to know if I am applying the scientific method correctly.

· If there are verified examples of NDE I will conclude that NDE are probably real.

With this I mean that if the guy who had this experience most be capable of providing information about the external world that he could have not known before or during his “coma”

For example if he has an NDE in the hospital and he went to the room above and he provides an accurate description of who was in that room, what clothes where they using, what where they talking about etc. NDE should be considered real.

If such examples are inexistent then alleged NDE are probably just dreams or hallucinations.

So the next step is to do some research and see if there are verifiable examples of NDEs

So before doing the research would you add something? appart from verifiable examples would you add something else.

As one who's been a student of this topic for literally decades now, let me say there are more Veridical NDEs than I will be able to recall.

The Case of Pam Reynolds:
In order to remove a life threatening aneurysm deep in her brain, Pam Reynolds underwent a rare surgical procedure called “Operation Standstill” in which the blood is drained from the body like oil from a car, stopping all brain, heart and organ activity. The body temperature is lowered to 60 degrees. While fully anesthesized, with sound-emitting earplugs, Pam’s ordeal began. Dr. Spetzler, the surgeon, was sawing into her skull when Pam suddenly heard the saw and began to observe the surgical procedure from a vantage point over his shoulder. She also heard what the nurses said to the doctors. Upon returning to consciousness, she was able to accurately describe the unique surgical instrument used and report the statements made by the nurses.20
A Report from a Dutch Nurse:
“During night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-year old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care unit… When we go to intubate the patient, he turns out to have dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures and put them onto the ‘crash cart.’ [..] Only after more than a week do I meet again with the patient, who is by now back on the cardiac ward. The moment he sees me he says: ‘O, that nurse knows where my dentures are.’ I am very surprised. Then he elucidates: ‘You were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that cart, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath, and there you put my teeth.’.”21

Maria’s Shoe
Kimberly Clark Sharp (1995) was a social worker in Harborview Hospital in Seattle when Maria was brought in unconscious from cardiac arrest. Sharp visited her the following day in a hospital room, at which point Maria described leaving her body and floating above the hospital. Desperate to prove that she had in fact left her body and was not crazy, she described seeing a worn dark blue tennis shoe on the ledge outside a window on the far side of the hospital. Not believing her but wanting to help, Sharp checked the ledge by pressing her face against the sealed windows and found a shoe that perfectly matched the details Maria had related.22

Visual Perception in the Blind

Dr. Kenneth Ring describes 21 cases of visual perception in the blind during their near-death experiences in his book Mindsight: Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in the Blind.



These are some of the things that made me a believer in the phenomena. My beliefs are that the NDE is the separation of the astral/mental body from the physical body. Death-like physical trauma triggers this separation and is usually permanent but in cases of physical recovery a return of the astral/mental to the physical occurs and that produces the classic Near Death Experience.

 

[leroy]

I wonder why people who have NDE's of other cultures never have them of Jesus besides Americans/Europeans, Muslims have NDE"s about Allah and Mohammed, Hindu's have them of Shiva, Vishnu etc and Buddhists have them of the the Buddha and pagans have them of their gods. Nde's can be better explained through Neurology then religion even though there's plenty of Christian websites that say they are proof of Jesus etc which is rubbish.

So if non Christians where to have "Christian NDEs" Would you accept tras as evidence for christianity?

 

[rational experiences]

The NDE proves human life as they experience life gets intricately heavenly recorded by the state to record.

Even scientists use other types of inventions to record. As it is a state.

So you are recorded as you die.

We live water oxygenated which is always ground leaving. Why we cell age and die. Life is constantly in attack.

When we die we prove another spirit using the recordings is observing us.

By the types of information told. Seen by the recorded image spirit leaving which the physical body has no longer held.

That spirit eternal is not in creation.

Reasoning a recording is not conscious. Consciousness perused contemplates recordings.

As humans came direct out of the eternal we are its highest consciousness in creation.

 

[sun rise]

As one who's been a student of this topic for literally decades now, let me say there are more Veridical NDEs than I will be able to recall.

The Case of Pam Reynolds:
In order to remove a life threatening aneurysm deep in her brain, Pam Reynolds underwent a rare surgical procedure called “Operation Standstill” in which the blood is drained from the body like oil from a car, stopping all brain, heart and organ activity. The body temperature is lowered to 60 degrees. While fully anesthesized, with sound-emitting earplugs, Pam’s ordeal began. Dr. Spetzler, the surgeon, was sawing into her skull when Pam suddenly heard the saw and began to observe the surgical procedure from a vantage point over his shoulder. She also heard what the nurses said to the doctors. Upon returning to consciousness, she was able to accurately describe the unique surgical instrument used and report the statements made by the nurses.20
A Report from a Dutch Nurse:
“During night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-year old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care unit… When we go to intubate the patient, he turns out to have dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures and put them onto the ‘crash cart.’ [..] Only after more than a week do I meet again with the patient, who is by now back on the cardiac ward. The moment he sees me he says: ‘O, that nurse knows where my dentures are.’ I am very surprised. Then he elucidates: ‘You were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that cart, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath, and there you put my teeth.’.”21

Maria’s Shoe
Kimberly Clark Sharp (1995) was a social worker in Harborview Hospital in Seattle when Maria was brought in unconscious from cardiac arrest. Sharp visited her the following day in a hospital room, at which point Maria described leaving her body and floating above the hospital. Desperate to prove that she had in fact left her body and was not crazy, she described seeing a worn dark blue tennis shoe on the ledge outside a window on the far side of the hospital. Not believing her but wanting to help, Sharp checked the ledge by pressing her face against the sealed windows and found a shoe that perfectly matched the details Maria had related.22

Visual Perception in the Blind

Dr. Kenneth Ring describes 21 cases of visual perception in the blind during their near-death experiences in his book Mindsight: Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in the Blind.



These are some of the things that made me a believer in the phenomena. My beliefs are that the NDE is the separation of the astral/mental body from the physical body. Death-like physical trauma triggers this separation and is usually permanent but in cases of physical recovery a return of the astral/mental to the physical occurs and that produces the classic Near Death Experience.

It's interesting that the skeptics have not responded to either of our posts on this topic.

 

[tas8831]

So if non Christians where to have "Christian NDEs" Would you accept tras as evidence for christianity?

If ALL of them did, maybe.

 

[tas8831]

As one who's been a student of this topic for literally decades now, let me say there are more Veridical NDEs than I will be able to recall.

The Case of Pam Reynolds:
In order to remove a life threatening aneurysm deep in her brain, Pam Reynolds underwent a rare surgical procedure called “Operation Standstill” in which the blood is drained from the body like oil from a car, stopping all brain, heart and organ activity. The body temperature is lowered to 60 degrees. While fully anesthesized, with sound-emitting earplugs, Pam’s ordeal began. Dr. Spetzler, the surgeon, was sawing into her skull when Pam suddenly heard the saw and began to observe the surgical procedure from a vantage point over his shoulder. She also heard what the nurses said to the doctors. Upon returning to consciousness, she was able to accurately describe the unique surgical instrument used and report the statements made by the nurses.20
A Report from a Dutch Nurse:
“During night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-year old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care unit… When we go to intubate the patient, he turns out to have dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures and put them onto the ‘crash cart.’ [..] Only after more than a week do I meet again with the patient, who is by now back on the cardiac ward. The moment he sees me he says: ‘O, that nurse knows where my dentures are.’ I am very surprised. Then he elucidates: ‘You were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that cart, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath, and there you put my teeth.’.”21

Maria’s Shoe
Kimberly Clark Sharp (1995) was a social worker in Harborview Hospital in Seattle when Maria was brought in unconscious from cardiac arrest. Sharp visited her the following day in a hospital room, at which point Maria described leaving her body and floating above the hospital. Desperate to prove that she had in fact left her body and was not crazy, she described seeing a worn dark blue tennis shoe on the ledge outside a window on the far side of the hospital. Not believing her but wanting to help, Sharp checked the ledge by pressing her face against the sealed windows and found a shoe that perfectly matched the details Maria had related.22

Visual Perception in the Blind

Dr. Kenneth Ring describes 21 cases of visual perception in the blind during their near-death experiences in his book Mindsight: Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in the Blind.



These are some of the things that made me a believer in the phenomena. My beliefs are that the NDE is the separation of the astral/mental body from the physical body. Death-like physical trauma triggers this separation and is usually permanent but in cases of physical recovery a return of the astral/mental to the physical occurs and that produces the classic Near Death Experience.

What is to respond to? Most of these are second hand accounts. Some are just made up. Some are real mysteries, but a mystery does not automatically mean afterlife.

Remember that Harvard neurosurgeon who wrote a book about his NDE, and we were all supposed to believe it was true because he was a neurosurgeon? Then little tidbits came out - like how he had been intubated at a time when he claimed to have called out for God's help (you cannot talk, much less call out, with a tube down your throat)... how he described test results that are not outcomes of the tests he described, etc.

People make things up. Sometimes, they really believe that these things happened to them. Lack of oxygen to the brain does weird things to people.

Looked up Pam Reynolds:

Reynolds' near-death experience has been put forward as evidence supporting an afterlife by proponents such as cardiologist Michael Sabom in his book Light and Death. According to Sabom, Reynold's experience occurred during a period in which her brain had completely ceased to function.[6]

Critics say that the amount of time which Reynolds was "flatlined" is generally misrepresented and suggest that her NDE occurred while under general anaesthesia when the brain was still active, hours before Reynolds underwent hypothermic cardiac arrest.[7][8][9]

Anesthesiologist Gerald Woerlee analyzed the case, and concluded that Reynolds' ability to perceive events during her surgery was the result of "anesthesia awareness".[10]

According to the psychologist Chris French:

Woerlee, an anesthesiologist with many years of clinical experience, has considered this case in detail and remains unconvinced of the need for a paranormal explanation... [He] draws attention to the fact that Reynolds could only give a report of her experience some time after she recovered from the anesthetic as she was still intubated when she regained consciousness. This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced during the operation with her existing knowledge and expectations. The fact that she described the small pneumatic saw used in the operation also does not impress Woerlee. As he points out, the saw sounds like and, to some extent, looks like the pneumatic drills used by dentists.[2]​

​

 

[leroy]

As one who's been a student of this topic for literally decades now, let me say there are more Veridical NDEs than I will be able to recall.

The Case of Pam Reynolds:
In order to remove a life threatening aneurysm deep in her brain, Pam Reynolds underwent a rare surgical procedure called “Operation Standstill” in which the blood is drained from the body like oil from a car, stopping all brain, heart and organ activity. The body temperature is lowered to 60 degrees. While fully anesthesized, with sound-emitting earplugs, Pam’s ordeal began. Dr. Spetzler, the surgeon, was sawing into her skull when Pam suddenly heard the saw and began to observe the surgical procedure from a vantage point over his shoulder. She also heard what the nurses said to the doctors. Upon returning to consciousness, she was able to accurately describe the unique surgical instrument used and report the statements made by the nurses.20
A Report from a Dutch Nurse:
“During night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-year old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care unit… When we go to intubate the patient, he turns out to have dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures and put them onto the ‘crash cart.’ [..] Only after more than a week do I meet again with the patient, who is by now back on the cardiac ward. The moment he sees me he says: ‘O, that nurse knows where my dentures are.’ I am very surprised. Then he elucidates: ‘You were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that cart, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath, and there you put my teeth.’.”21

Maria’s Shoe
Kimberly Clark Sharp (1995) was a social worker in Harborview Hospital in Seattle when Maria was brought in unconscious from cardiac arrest. Sharp visited her the following day in a hospital room, at which point Maria described leaving her body and floating above the hospital. Desperate to prove that she had in fact left her body and was not crazy, she described seeing a worn dark blue tennis shoe on the ledge outside a window on the far side of the hospital. Not believing her but wanting to help, Sharp checked the ledge by pressing her face against the sealed windows and found a shoe that perfectly matched the details Maria had related.22

Visual Perception in the Blind

Dr. Kenneth Ring describes 21 cases of visual perception in the blind during their near-death experiences in his book Mindsight: Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in the Blind.



These are some of the things that made me a believer in the phenomena. My beliefs are that the NDE is the separation of the astral/mental body from the physical body. Death-like physical trauma triggers this separation and is usually permanent but in cases of physical recovery a return of the astral/mental to the physical occurs and that produces the classic Near Death Experience.

That is awsome, just wondering, if these stories are real, why arent they use more offten by apolegetics. ?


is there any atheist that can refute these claims?

thanks for sharing

 

[leroy]

What is

Woerlee, an anesthesiologist with many years of clinical experience, has considered this case in detail and remains unconvinced of the need for a paranormal explanation... [He] draws attention to the fact that Reynolds could only give a report of her experience some time after she recovered from the anesthetic as she was still intubated when she regained consciousness. This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced during the operation with her existing knowledge and expectations. The fact that she described the small pneumatic saw used in the operation also does not impress Woerlee. As he points out, the saw sounds like and, to some extent, looks like the pneumatic drills used by dentists.[2]​

Ok so what do you need to see, for it to be convincing enough?

What evidence would you accept for NDE…………. As far as I know this is a “new” area of research so it is a good time to make predictions and see what happens in the near future.

 

[tas8831]

That is awsome, just wondering, if these stories are real, why arent they use more offten by apolegetics. ?

Tall tales are what you consider apologetics worthy?

is there any atheist that can refute these claims?

Is there any theist that can confirm them? It seems you will take mere assertion as fact as long as it props up some middle eastern religion.

 

[tas8831]

Ok so what do you need to see, for it to be convincing enough?

What evidence would you accept for NDE…………. As far as I know this is a “new” area of research so it is a good time to make predictions and see what happens in the near future.

Don't know or care, and not sure how this supports your religionism seeing as how non-Christians report non-Christian experiences.

I do know that many of the supposed phenomena of NDEs are produced by anoxia, so rather than assume magical afterworlds, why not just look at neuroscience? Why assume mysticism?
Do you automatically see God's hand in cloud formations that sort of, kind of, look like an eagle? Or do you attribute that to human imagination?