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NDE's and religion

xxclaro

Member
To anyone who has studied Near Death Experiences, what do you make of the fact that the vast majority of these experiences conflict with the teachings of most organized religion? I know some have had NDE's that pretty much align with their religious beliefs before the experience, but from what I've seen they are the minority.
Also, many non-religious people have had NDE's of a very spiritual nature. Do you believe this is evidence of life after death,and if so what is the nature of this life?
Even more interesting to me are so-called Pre-Death experiences. Can't go into all the details now, but I would suggest reading some of the word done by Dr.John Lerma,who specializes in hospice care for those near death. The experiences of some of his patients is truly incredible, and the things they see and learn are so different than what we are commonly taught in most of the religions of today. When I first read these accounts, I felt like I was finally seeing what God was really like,without all the attributes given to him by humans.
Anyway, maybe someone else has done some reading on these topics and cares to share their views.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I haven't studied any of it, I think it could be the brain entering a sort of dream state while shutting down.
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
What happens after death according to Islam is of several stages

1- The first stage is when the soul is released from the body at the time of near death, which is where NDE's take place. It is not a final release, as in some cases the person facing death may be saved by doctors or nurses so the soul returns and life continues. A certain percentage of people who experience NDEs are able to remember what they went through and most describe the first phase as floating above the place where they were located (i.e. the patient's bed).

2- The second stage is the transition phase. According to Muslim belief the soul returns to God / Allah, our Creator, then waits in what is called Hayat Al-Barzakh, (a transitional life). There are many details here, such as the soul rejoining the body in the grave and being questioned by an angel, .... etc

3- The third stage starts with the Day of Judgement, when all souls are ressurected. Again there are many details, but each individual will be accountable for what he/she did in this life, and the deeds will be weighed. Those who do more good than evil will be admited to Heaven by Allah's Mercy

So with NDEs, we are mainly at phase 1 at the very start of the journey to the Hereafter, and only the first shared experiences of floating above the body and seeing a light is described by all those who went through that experience. And this proves that humans have a soul in addition to a body

All other details which vary from one person to another according to their beliefs and this is not reliable information, as at that stage man's worst enemy, the devil, tries to deceive the person as a last attempt ...

Believers who are questioned in their graves about the faith and pass that last test will rest in peace till the Day of Judgement starts then would later be admitted to Heaven by Allah's Mercy ...

NDE is an area worthy of more scientific research for all those who are searching for proof about the existence of a soul .....
 
To anyone who has studied Near Death Experiences, what do you make of the fact that the vast majority of these experiences conflict with the teachings of most organized religion? I know some have had NDE's that pretty much align with their religious beliefs before the experience, but from what I've seen they are the minority.
Also, many non-religious people have had NDE's of a very spiritual nature. Do you believe this is evidence of life after death,and if so what is the nature of this life?
Even more interesting to me are so-called Pre-Death experiences. Can't go into all the details now, but I would suggest reading some of the word done by Dr.John Lerma,who specializes in hospice care for those near death. The experiences of some of his patients is truly incredible, and the things they see and learn are so different than what we are commonly taught in most of the religions of today. When I first read these accounts, I felt like I was finally seeing what God was really like,without all the attributes given to him by humans.
Anyway, maybe someone else has done some reading on these topics and cares to share their views.

It's a purely biological phenomenon. The experience can be recreated with ketamine.

TC
 
What happens after death according to Islam is of several stages

1- The first stage is when the soul is released from the body at the time of near death, which is where NDE's take place. It is not a final release, as in some cases the person facing death may be saved by doctors or nurses so the soul returns and life continues. A certain percentage of people who experience NDEs are able to remember what they went through and most describe the first phase as floating above the place where they were located (i.e. the patient's bed).

2- The second stage is the transition phase. According to Muslim belief the soul returns to God / Allah, our Creator, then waits in what is called Hayat Al-Barzakh, (a transitional life). There are many details here, such as the soul rejoining the body in the grave and being questioned by an angel, .... etc

3- The third stage starts with the Day of Judgement, when all souls are ressurected. Again there are many details, but each individual will be accountable for what he/she did in this life, and the deeds will be weighed. Those who do more good than evil will be admited to Heaven by Allah's Mercy

So with NDEs, we are mainly at phase 1 at the very start of the journey to the Hereafter, and only the first shared experiences of floating above the body and seeing a light is described by all those who went through that experience. And this proves that humans have a soul in addition to a body

All other details which vary from one person to another according to their beliefs and this is not reliable information, as at that stage man's worst enemy, the devil, tries to deceive the person as a last attempt ...

Believers who are questioned in their graves about the faith and pass that last test will rest in peace till the Day of Judgement starts then would later be admitted to Heaven by Allah's Mercy ...

NDE is an area worthy of more scientific research for all those who are searching for proof about the existence of a soul .....

With all due respect, why should we take any of this seriously?

TC
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
The first step is to take seriously scientific research being done on NDEs, especially during the last 8 years since December 2001 when The Lancet published research results done on patients in intensive care units in Dutch hospitals

This type of scientific research will help answer - in an objective way - whether humans have a soul or not

Then the question will be where does the human soul come from?

And where does it go after death?
 
The first step is to take seriously scientific research being done on NDEs, especially during the last 8 years since December 2001 when The Lancet published research results done on patients in intensive care units in Dutch hospitals

This type of scientific research will help answer - in an objective way - whether humans have a soul or not

Then the question will be where does the human soul come from?

And where does it go after death?

You didn't offer scientific research. You simply explained what one religion says about death. This is uninteresting, as it has no basis in reality.

TC
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
There is plenty of scientific research being done on NDEs

This research for example is taking place in the UK at Southampton University:

A large study is to examine near-death experiences in cardiac arrest patients.
Doctors at 25 UK and US hospitals will study 1,500 survivors to see if people with no heartbeat or brain activity can have "out of body" experiences.

Some people report seeing a tunnel or bright light, others recall looking down from the ceiling at medical staff.

The study, due to take three years and co-ordinated by Southampton University, will include placing on shelves images that could only be seen from above

To test this, the researchers have set up special shelving in resuscitation areas. The shelves hold pictures - but they're visible only from the ceiling.
Dr Sam Parnia, who is heading the study, said: "If you can demonstrate that consciousness continues after the brain switches off, it allows for the possibility that the consciousness is a separate entity

BBC NEWS | Health | Study into near-death experiences
 

John D

Spiritsurfer
I always thought that Lazarus and the widow's son and Jairus's daughter (Bible ) were NDE or would that be IDE -In death experiences.
I can't think of any Christian "law" that says that NDE's are wrong or sinful or whatever.
But there are a hell of a lot of different christian strands - maybe they invent some !!

The whole consept of being "born-again" while still alive and dying to to yourself - brings NDE very close to home in a christian context.
But they call me a anti-christian - christian . So I am proberly more a heretic than anything else.:rainbow1:

 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
To anyone who has studied Near Death Experiences, what do you make of the fact that the vast majority of these experiences conflict with the teachings of most organized religion? I know some have had NDE's that pretty much align with their religious beliefs before the experience, but from what I've seen they are the minority.

Also, many non-religious people have had NDE's of a very spiritual nature. Do you believe this is evidence of life after death,and if so what is the nature of this life?

Even more interesting to me are so-called Pre-Death experiences. Can't go into all the details now, but I would suggest reading some of the word done by Dr.John Lerma,who specializes in hospice care for those near death. The experiences of some of his patients is truly incredible, and the things they see and learn are so different than what we are commonly taught in most of the religions of today. When I first read these accounts, I felt like I was finally seeing what God was really like,without all the attributes given to him by humans.

Anyway, maybe someone else has done some reading on these topics and cares to share their views.

It is interesting to me that the experiences contradict religious teachings for the most part, sometimes even the experiencer's firmly held beliefs. However, I would not resort to the supernatural to explain this: drug-induced spiritual experiences can also challenge a person's firmly held notions. Altered states of consciousness, however they come about, do this, and this is part of what makes them an altered state. I remember a spontaneous experience I had in which what I experienced and was "told" contradicted everything I had ever been told by cruel people about my homosexuality, and I knew in that moment, immediately, that all love is beautiful, whoever one loves.

There is a book of near-death experiences of gays and lesbians that conveys the same truth (Crossing Over & Coming Home, by Liz Dale, Ph.D.), the only compilation of gay and lesbian NDEs I know of.

I do not believe these experiences are evidence of an afterlife, although I once did, and I once interpreted some of my own similar spiritual experiences (usually in times when I really needed guidance) in a supernatural way. Susan Blackmore provides a very good case for the dying brain theory in her book Dying to Live: Near-Death Experiences. I am really interested in evidence that can account for the NDE related to the brain, such as the excerpt from one of Blackmore's article. It is an attempt to explain the light. The book explains this in more detail:

This theory is important in showing how the structure of the brain could produce the same hallucination for everyone. However, I was dubious about the idea of these moving stripes, and also Cowan’s theory doesn’t readily explain the bright light at the center. So Tom Troscianko and I, at the University of Bristol, tried to develop a simpler theory (Blackmore and Troscianko 1989). The most obvious thing about the representation in the cortex is that there are lots of cells representing the center of the visual field but very few for the edges. This means that you can see small things very clearly in the center, but if they are out at the edges you cannot. We took just this simple fact as a starting point and used a computer to simulate what would happen when you have gradually increasing electrical noise in the visual cortex.
The computer program starts with thinly spread dots of light, mapped in the same way as the cortex, with more toward the middle and very few at the edges. Gradually the number of dots increases, mimicking the increasing noise. Now the center begins to look like a white blob and the outer edges gradually get more and more dots. And so it expands until eventually the whole screen is filled with light. The appearance is just like a dark speckly tunnel with a white light at the end, and the light grows bigger and bigger (or nearer and nearer) until it fills the whole screen. (See Figure 1.)
If it seems odd that such a simple picture can give the impression that you are moving, consider two points. First, it is known that random movements in the periphery of the visual field are more likely to be interpreted by the brain as outward than inward movements (Georgeson and Harris 1978). Second, the brain infers our own movement to a great extent from what we see. Therefore, presented with an apparently growing patch of flickering white light your brain will easily interpret it as yourself moving forward into a tunnel.
The theory also makes a prediction about NDEs in the blind. If they are blind because of problems in the eye but have a normal cortex, then they too should see tunnels. But if their blindness stems from a faulty or damaged cortex, they should not. These predictions have yet to be tested.
According to this kind of theory there is, of course, no real tunnel. Nevertheless there is a real physical cause of the tunnel experience. It is noise in the visual cortex. This way we can explain the origin of the tunnel without just dismissing the experiences and without needing to invent other bodies or other worlds.
Near-Death Experiences: In or Out of the Body

She has also written other books on the paranormal, out of body experiences, etc.

The field of neurotheology is a new field that is attempting to provide scientific explanations for spiritual experiences. Michael Persinger has created a "God helmet" that can replicate such experiences, and there are various other ways of inducing near-death experiences besides death. What is interesting is that there are differences in near-death experiences that occur near death and those that are induced in other ways (Dying to Live: Near-Death Experiences by Susan Blackmore goes into this in more detail than I can), which is to be expected if the phenomenon has a physical or biological basis.

Providing a natural, rather than a supernatural, explanation for these experiences should not diminish the value of the insights gained from them, whether it is a near-death experience, lucid dream, out-of-body experience, theophany, telepathic communication with "spirit beings," and so forth. The fact that love has a physiological basis doesn't mean that love is any less meaningful to us. Rather, I think these experiences can illuminate something about the nature of the human mind.

The experiences I've had, now that I no longer interpret them in a supernatural way, have not at all changed for me in their value or the emotional impact they still have on me, and I continue to practice meditative/contemplative practices, mantras, and prayers. Sometimes I feel a little of what I did before, although not quite so intensely. It is possible that our capacity for these experiences has been selected for during the process of evolution because it provides an advantage, although this is debatable.
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
[FONT=Arial,Geneva,Verdana,Sans-Serif]World's Largest-Ever Study Of Near-Death Experiences[/FONT]

ScienceDaily (Sep. 10, 2008) — The University of Southampton is launching the world's largest-ever study of near-death experiences this week.
The AWARE (AWAreness during REsuscitation) study is to be launched by the Human Consciousness Project of the University of Southampton - an international collaboration of scientists and physicians who have joined forces to study the human brain, consciousness and clinical death.

The study is led by Dr Sam Parnia, an expert in the field of consciousness during clinical death, together with Dr Peter Fenwick and Professors Stephen Holgate and Robert Peveler of the University of Southampton. Following a successful 18-month pilot phase at selected hospitals in the UK, the study is now being expanded to include other centres within the UK, mainland Europe and North America.

"Contrary to popular perception," Dr Parnia explains, "death is not a specific moment. It is a process that begins when the heart stops beating, the lungs stop working and the brain ceases functioning - a medical condition termed cardiac arrest, which from a biological viewpoint is synonymous with clinical death.

"During a cardiac arrest, all three criteria of death are present. There then follows a period of time, which may last from a few seconds to an hour or more, in which emergency medical efforts may succeed in restarting the heart and reversing the dying process. What people experience during this period of cardiac arrest provides a unique window of understanding into what we are all likely to experience during the dying process."

A number of recent scientific studies carried out by independent researchers have demonstrated that 10-20 per cent of people who go through cardiac arrest and clinical death report lucid, well structured thought processes, reasoning, memories and sometimes detailed recall of events during their encounter with death.

During the AWARE study, doctors will use sophisticated technology to study the brain and consciousness during cardiac arrest. At the same time, they will test the validity of out of body experiences and claims of being able to 'see' and 'hear' during cardiac arrest.

The AWARE study will be complemented by the BRAIN-1 (Brain Resuscitation Advancement International Network - 1) study, in which the research team will conduct a variety of physiological tests in cardiac arrest patients, as well as cerebral monitoring techniques that aim to identify methods to improve the medical and psychological care of patients who have undergone cardiac arrest

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080910090829.htm
 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
I am all for more scientific study of this phenomena, but in light of the data we have already accumulated, I highly doubt that any separate non-material soul will be proven. There are many books that claim this has been proven, but the stories are anecdotal and we have yet to come across strong scientific evidence for such dualism. NDEs and other spiritual experiences are very fascinating to me, but to me, their value does not lie in the supernatural.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
DMT is released in your brain when you die. This makes you trip nuts.

"Dr. Rick Strassman, while conducting DMT research in the 1990s at the University of New Mexico, advanced the theory that a massive release of DMT from the pineal gland prior to death or near death was the cause of the near death experience (NDE) phenomenon. Several of his test subjects reported NDE-like audio or visual hallucinations. His explanation for this was the possible lack of panic involved in the clinical setting and possible dosage differences between those administered and those encountered in actual NDE cases. Several subjects also reported contact with 'other beings', alien like, insectoid or reptilian in nature, in highly advanced technological environments[21] where the subjects were 'carried', 'probed', 'tested', 'manipulated', 'dismembered', 'taught', 'loved' and even 'raped' by these 'beings'. This is most likely due to the setting of where the experiments took place. Many people who use DMT outside of a laboratory never report any of these types of experiences."

Dimethyltryptamine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
DMT: The Spirit Molecule contains information about this research. The author is a dualist, but his ideas seemed far fetched to me, even at the time, when I was also a dualist. He seemed to think the chemical is a way to transport the soul to other realms, but this seems unlikely, especially since some of the patients' hallucinations were interposed on physical reality around them. For instance, some saw the doctors as clowns. Clowns were a common theme in his patients' trips.

Still, some uses of the DMT proved therapeutic, and some people had very positive near-death like experiences.
 
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