• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Nationality or Religion

RabbiO

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Jake1001 said:
'Jewish': Nationality or religion? Israel's fierce, bitter debate about identity | Opinion

Posted for the Conservative Jewish (CJ) and Orthodox (OJ) “friends” in the DIR.

Comments boys and Flankie ?
Click to expand...

The piece you cited deals with, as noted, circumstances within the State of Israel. Are you asking specifically about the State of Israel or are you attempting to cast a wider net?

In a wider sense, let me quote these words from my friend Levite - "Objectively, I say that Judaism is a socioreligious ethnicity, representing a semi-permeable society organized around common cultural and religious national heritage. It is of interest as one of the oldest extant Mideastern/European cultures and religious traditions, and as the ancestor/root religion of the two other major Western faiths, and perhaps also as an interesting historical mix of frequently persecuted and frequently successful as a culture.

Subjectively, as a Jew, I say that Judaism is my people's eternal covenant with the Creator of all things, our evolving dialogue about holiness with the Source of everything. I say that observance of the mitzvot (commandments) is not just my duty to God, but a way to create meaning in my life, a spiritual discipline to help raise my awareness and connect with God. I also regard the Jewish tradition as my inheritance, something wonderful I have inherited from my ancestors, that makes me a link in an unbroken chain that extends back for thousands of years, and, I hope infinitely far into the future."
 
dybmh

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@Jake1001: If I had to choose, I think that national identity is more important than religious identity.

If the Jewish people are a nation, then it makes sense that we are a diverse group of people with differing beliefs and priorities. It is simply an accurate description of the Jewish people.

Also, every nation is made up of both good people and bad people. Bad behavior may reflect poorly on the nation, but their bad behavior doesn't nessessarily reflect on the religious principles in the Torah or on G-d. For me, this takes a bit of the sting out of the conspiracy theory presented at the beginning of the article. Every nation is going to have a few people who say outrageous things with political motives.

If the Jewish people are perceived instead as primarily religious adherents, then when people make bold erroneous claims, are judgemental and cruel, it's more likely to reflect poorly on the religion itself or G-d. It would put us in the difficult position of removing people from the religion who were behaving badly. I'm not even sure how that would work.
 
J

Jake1001

Computer Simulator
RabbiO said:
The piece you cited deals with, as noted, circumstances within the State of Israel. Are you asking specifically about the State of Israel or are you attempting to cast a wider net?

In a wider sense, let me quote these words from my friend Levite - "Objectively, I say that Judaism is a socioreligious ethnicity, representing a semi-permeable society organized around common cultural and religious national heritage. It is of interest as one of the oldest extant Mideastern/European cultures and religious traditions, and as the ancestor/root religion of the two other major Western faiths, and perhaps also as an interesting historical mix of frequently persecuted and frequently successful as a culture.

Subjectively, as a Jew, I say that Judaism is my people's eternal covenant with the Creator of all things, our evolving dialogue about holiness with the Source of everything. I say that observance of the mitzvot (commandments) is not just my duty to God, but a way to create meaning in my life, a spiritual discipline to help raise my awareness and connect with God. I also regard the Jewish tradition as my inheritance, something wonderful I have inherited from my ancestors, that makes me a link in an unbroken chain that extends back for thousands of years, and, I hope infinitely far into the future."
Click to expand...
Hi Big R, as you know I cannot respond to you in the DIR, but I will be glad to talk with you over in the debate forum.
 
RabbiO

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Jake1001 said:
Hi Big R, as you know I cannot respond to you in the DIR, but I will be glad to talk with you over in the debate forum.
Click to expand...
Of course you can respond to me in the DIR. I’m not trying to debate. I’m trying to have a discussion.
 
Harel13

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Jake1001 said:
Comments boys and Flankie ?
Click to expand...
Thank you @RabbiO for the article.

First of all, it's well known, in Israel, at least, that Rabbi Yitzchak Yosef is far from being politically correct, nor does he much care about such things, if at all. And that, in my opinion, is לטוב ולמוטב - there are good things to that and also some less-good things.

Second, SC Shalit or however one wants to call the case in English, is really truly ironic considering that the IDF, for example, are very strict in deciding who's considered religious and who isn't. The IDF believe that they are the ones that get to make this decision. So government, make up your mind: Who gets to decide? The individual citizen or the government? And who makes up the standards?

Third, the only thing that may be inferred as referring to Conservatives is an inexplicit statement that Orthodoxy controls the Law of Return, which is not entirely correct, considering that Orthodoxy is facing a crisis, in its view, in which there are now hundreds of thousands of non-Jews who think they are Jews, living in Israel (and also someone who are certain they are not Jewish but see no problem with intermarriage). Were Orthodoxy really in control of the law, this wouldn't have happened, at least not with such great numbers. But you get court cases like SC Shalit, SC Brother Daniel and others, and the Law of Return no longer makes any sense. We're long due for an amendment.
 
Last edited:
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Harel13 said:
I just don't like paying for news sites that I only open up once a long while. :)
Click to expand...
I totally agree. I also believe that we all have a responsibility to financially support those information source which we value and frequently use. I prefer that support be in the form of donations (as with, e.g., Times of Israel, Sefaria, and Wikipedia), but too few people agree to make it a viable option in too many cases.

The bottom line is this: If I can pay for Netflix, I can pay for Haaretz. :)
 
Harel13

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
I totally agree. I also believe that we all have a responsibility to financially support those information source which we value and frequently use. I prefer that support be in the form of donations (as with, e.g., Times of Israel, Sefaria, and Wikipedia), but too few people agree to make it a viable option in too many cases.

The bottom line is this: If I can pay for Netflix, I can pay for Haaretz. :)
Click to expand...
I don't pay for Netflix, hence...:D
 
Flankerl

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Jake1001 said:
Why ?
Click to expand...

Non-Jews have the tendency to disavow Jewish identity in favour of collegial adoption of their countries Jews.
This may sound good but it splinters us apart along imaginary lines.

Suddenly an Italkims Jewish idenitity is repressed in favour of his Italian identity.
The goal of this is to divide us.

Nothing ever good comes from letting non-Jews dictate Jewish identity.


And exactly that happened in the other thread.



Furthermore I don't really know what's the big deal of the article.
Is it Rabbi Yosefs remarks about non-Jews who moved to Israel from the USSR? Because that is a fact.
 
Harel13

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Flankerl said:
Furthermore I don't really know what's the big deal of the article.
Click to expand...
Possibly an attempt to slam the Chief Rabbi, but it may also just be using the incident as a springboard to raising the issue.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top