Mystic Induction

[Windwalker]

Their brought on by thought.

They are opened to by a gap in thought. Not by using thought to figure stuff out.

Why do you think the focus of meditation is to still the active thought stream? Why meditate at all? Why not just let your thoughts go crazy, and just call that monkey mind on steroids Enlightenment? Why not just overstimulate the mind with caffeine and anxiety, if thought is the path to Enlightenment? How can we become Aware, if there's a blaring conversation drowning out everything?

 

[Windwalker]

I do think words can hold the keys though, so to speak. Best when combined with images of course.

How so? Are you talking about archetypal forms and symbolisms to inspire the mind to transcend itself? Are you talking about poetry, or things like koans to get the mind to relax and defocus, in other words let go of their grip in order for some Light to penetrate the soul?

 

[King Phenomenon]

They are opened to by a gap in thought. Not by using thought to figure stuff out.

Why do you think the focus of meditation is to still the active thought stream? Why meditate at all? Why not just let your thoughts go crazy, and just call that monkey mind on steroids Enlightenment? Why not just overstimulate the mind with caffeine and anxiety, if thought is the path to Enlightenment? How can we become Aware, if there's a blaring conversation drowning out everything?

Time to go to sleep? Haha

 

[Windwalker]

Time to go to sleep? Haha

Is that what you believe happens in meditation? That if you stop the constant thought stream you fall asleep? Has that been your experience?

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm not here to debate whether the mystic experience is a real thing that occurs, it is.

Now, there are two identified types of Mystical experience, usually defined as such:

"Mystical extrovertive experiences include consciousness of the unity of nature overlaid onto one’s sense-perception of the world, as well as non-unitive extrovertive experiences such as “cosmic consciousness.” When not extrovertive, an experience is “introvertive.” Examples include the experience of “nothingness” — an awareness lacking all differentiated content — and an awareness of God lacking sense-experiences."

Mysticism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Now there is some dissention between dualistic and monistic schools of thought in regards to these experiences, which I'm not looking to debate here, either.

What I am curious about people's opinions on the matter is whether or not they think a person, we will say an advanced religious practitioner, can induce a mystic experience in another?

The mere presence of an enlightened (Self-realised) being can induce (intentionally or unintentionally) mystic experiences. That is why some spiritual teachers suggest students write their questions down before an individual darshan session, just so they don't forget them due to the mystical experience that happens from the encounter itself.

 

[vulcanlogician]

If I understand, the mechanism is a form of Jungian transference at a very high level between master and disciple after the relationship has been established.

This kind of idea is why most people get the sense that mysticism is a bunch of woo woo stuff that involves telepathy, levitation, or healing powers. By the strict definition that philosophers of religion use, it does not. (See the differentiation between "extrovertive" and "introvertive" in the SEP link in the OP.) There is nothing supernatural going on with either one. They are simply perceptive modes.

I tend to be more realistic about mysticism, and that's why I find room for it in my naturalistic worldview. At the basic level, they are conscious experiences, nothing more, nothing less. I tend to view them like emotions... complex emotions, like love. Such experiences can be meaningful or important to those who have them. And I say, sure. It's cool to find inner experiences meaningful. Anyone who has ever been seriously in love has done that. Even though love is reducible to instinct and hormonal activity, that doesn't mean it is WISE for human beings to interpret the experience of love that way while they are having such experiences.

Long story short, people who have mystical experiences have every right to find meaning in them... ie. to take them seriously at a personal level. Like all mental experiences, I believe they are caused by brain activity and neurotransmitters, etc. I don't know about you guys, but I've learned more about love by having my heart broken (and taking the experience at face value) than I have by enrolling in chemistry class. I suggest that mystics do the same.

But ya gotta be careful. Just like love can make a reasonable person into a (temporary) crazy person. Mystical experiences can suggest or influence belief in all kinds of falsities. I would advise cultivating a realistic attitude about mysticism. Avoid magical thinking and supernaturalism, while focusing on the content of the experience, particularly its meaningfulness.

Not to knock anyone else's approach, but there are a few exaggerated claims that sometimes accompany talk of mysticism. And this part of it kind of irks me.

 

[Windwalker]

The mere presence of an enlightened (Self-realised) being can induce (intentionally or unintentionally) mystic experiences. That is why some spiritual teachers suggest students write their questions down before an individual darshan session, just so they don't forget them due to the mystical experience that happens from the encounter itself.

I can attest to this. It was rather unexpected for me, but I had the opportunity to spend the day with someone who is one of the highest lamas in Tibetan Buddhism, who is close to the Dalai Lama. He was a gentle soul, and I didn't think of him in terms of some high position, like those around him would. I just had a nice personal conversation with him as I was driving him around in my car as a favor to someone (long story).

The next morning as I did my regular mediation, everything was unexpectedly and radically different. It was like incredibly deep. It was then I recognized what is meant by a certain "transmission", even though that was not some official sort of thing. There is different depths that are there in others, that if we have any degree of subtle awareness in ourselves, we will pick that up. Again, that was totally unexpected, and it lasted for quite a long time, and even to today that's still part of my own interior landscape now. It's hard to explain.

 

[The Hammer]

I can understand in reading this out of context how it would seem this way, but Narendra grew fond of Ramakrishna, increased his visits to Dakshineswar, and ultimately became a disciple of Ramakrishna of his own free will.

Swami Vivekananda - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ok, that makes sense. And yeah, I think it just reads weird. That's why I asked your opinion and thoughts on it, as this isn't a.story I'm familiar with.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

What I am curious about people's opinions on the matter is whether or not they think a person, we will say an advanced religious practitioner, can induce a mystic experience in another?

I don’t know this for a fact but, intuitively, I believe it would be quite difficult.

Even if we by means of suggestion during successful hypnosis, induced the experience of emptiness, of being free from self and seamlessly united with everythingness; when we’d introduce concepts as those received in spiritual “downloads”, the subject would likely remain aware of them having come from us during the time of hypnosis.

I think that this awareness would impact on the long term effects of the experience itself, taking away the transformative qualities that an actual mystical experience has on someone’s everyday life.

Humbly,
Hermit

 

[Vinayaka]

I can attest to this. It was rather unexpected for me, but I had the opportunity to spend the day with someone who is one of the highest lamas in Tibetan Buddhism, who is close to the Dalai Lama. He was a gentle soul, and I didn't think of him in terms of some high position, like those around him would. I just had a nice personal conversation with him as I was driving him around in my car as a favor to someone (long story).

The next morning as I did my regular mediation, everything was unexpectedly and radically different. It was like incredibly deep. It was then I recognized what is meant by a certain "transmission", even though that was not some official sort of thing. There is different depths that are there in others, that if we have any degree of subtle awareness in ourselves, we will pick that up. Again, that was totally unexpected, and it lasted for quite a long time, and even to today that's still part of my own interior landscape now. It's hard to explain.

Those moments in my life have been, shall we say, very interesting. You get so used to being around 'normal' people that when you are fortunate enough to be around a gentle soul, as you put it, things get rather interesting at worst, and fascinating at best.