My attempt at the Book of Revelations

[Shamuwn]

Sure, but pelase answer this first. Are you waning to debate my ideas? Or are you open to hearing new perspectives?

Thanks...

I'm willing to share/ post what I have be taught / Research about the Book of Revelation if you like I can post what I have learn / know , And you can share your though / New Perspectives . All I ask you to be open minded . Meaning I just don't accept anything I'm told / read .

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I'm willing to share/ post what I have be taught / Research about the Book of Revelation if you like I can post what I have learn / know , And you can share your though / New Perspectives . All I ask you to be open minded . Meaning I just don't accept anything I'm told / read .

From the religion of Islam, do you think the Book of Revelation is perfect? From my understanding of Islam, you think it is flawed, so as much as you and I would like to discuss the book, we come from two totally different frame of references and believe in the authority of the bible in two different ways. As such, can we ever really have a meaningful discussion?

Your thought? Thanks...

 

[Shamuwn]

From the religion of Islam, do you think the Book of Revelation is perfect? From my understanding of Islam, you think it is flawed, so as much as you and I would like to discuss the book, we come from two totally different frame of references and believe in the authority of the bible in two different ways. As such, can we ever really have a meaningful discussion?

Your thought? Thanks...

LOLOLOLOLOLOL You Know What Funny About Your Statement Is With All The Many Diffrent Denomination / Sect Of Christians / School Of Thought , And You Speak Of A [ Totally Different Frame Of References And Belief's , Believe ] LOLOLOLOLOL , Now Unless Your Not A Christian , That Tell Me You Have Your ( Own / School Of Though ) And Expect Others To Accept Your's As The Word Of God .

It Also Tell Me You Haven't Read The Qur'aan , Because The Qur'aan Tells Muslims To Read The Scriptures Before The Qur'aan . This Is Also A Mistake Christians And Some Muslims Make . For How Can One Overstand Another Belif's Is They Havn't Read Their Scriptures .


What I Find Sad Is That People Of Religion Don't Take The Time To Research What Their Teacher's / Minister's / Authors / Theologian / Scholar . Teach Them , They Also Believe Everything The Media Etc Says Without Question , When Its A Know Fact That Media Is Being Control . Like I Said Before If You Care To Share Your Though's On The Book Of Revelation With And Open Mind According To The Scripture'sss We Can Do So ,


If Your Looking To Tell Me What I Should Believe / Say According To What You Believe Its Meaning Is . We Might As Well Drop It . But Remember You Put Forth The Challenge . Now You Coming With All These Rules . Check Out This Post So You'll Have A Better Overstanding Ok
El's Holy Injiyl ~ The Book Of Revelation Chapter Eight .
I Mean No Disrepect Here .

 

[Just_me_Mike]

LOLOLOLOLOLOL You Know What Funny About Your Statement Is With All The Many Diffrent Denomination / Sect Of Christians / School Of Thought , And You Speak Of A [ Totally Different Frame Of References And Belief's , Believe ] LOLOLOLOLOL , Now Unless Your Not A Christian , That Tell Me You Have Your ( Own / School Of Though ) And Expect Others To Accept Your's As The Word Of God . It Also Tell Me You Haven't Read The Qur'aan , Because The Qur'aan Tells Muslims To Read The Scriptures Before The Qur'aan . This Is Also A Mistake Christians And Some Muslims Make . For How Can One Overstand Another Belif's Is They Havn't Read Their Scriptures . What I Find Sad Is That People Of Religion Don't Take The Time To Research What Their Teacher's / Minister's / Authors / Theologian / Scholar . Teach Them , They Also Believe Everything The Media Etc Says Without Question , When Its A Know Fact That Media Is Being Control . Like I Said Before If You Care To Share Your Though's On The Book Of Revelation With And Open Mind According To The Scripture'sss We Can Do So , If Your Looking To Tell Me What I Should Believe / Say According To What You Believe Its Meaning Is . We Might As Well Drop It . But Remember You Put Forth The Challenge . Now You Coming With All These Rules .
Check Out This Post So You'll Have A Better Overstanding Ok
El's Holy Injiyl ~ The Book Of Revelation Chapter Eight .
I Mean No Disrepect Here .

Oh my, if we are ever going to have a discussion, you have to figure out a way to stop capitalizing every word like this "I Am Capitilising Every Word I Write".

It is very hard to read. Are you using a translator program to discuss? If so please tell me so I can understand why you write as you do. If you are I will try to continue reading.

Thanks...

 

[Shamuwn]

Oh my, if we are ever going to have a discussion, you have to figure out a way to stop capitalizing every word like this "I Am Capitilising Every Word I Write".

It is very hard to read. Are you using a translator program to discuss? If so please tell me so I can understand why you write as you do. If you are I will try to continue reading.

Thanks...

Excuses , Excuses , Excuses , Excuses ,

 

[England my lionheart]

Some say that revelation has been and gone and that it was'nt meant to be taken as doomsday to come but a metaphore of whats already happened 2000 years ago,whats your take.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Excuses , Excuses , Excuses , Excuses ,

Yes, OK you win. I bow out...

 

[MountainHumanist]

A Thought Experiment:

What if we never knew Revelation had existed. We had never read it or knew of its existence. Now, imagine someone comes up to you, some guy named John who had been living on a Greek island for awhile. He hands you a neat, typewritten copy that matches what is currently found in Revelation. He tells you he wrote it down after God dictated it to him and/or that he saw all of those visions.

Question: Would you assume this modern-day John was insane or did he actually had a valid revelation? Would you accept his writings as biblical truth or as the hallucinations of a zealot? If you would not accept such a modern-day revelation, why do you (if you do) accept the Book of Revelation as inspired when, in most other cases, most people would judge such writing as clearly hallucinatory?


Food for thought.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

A Thought Experiment:

What if we never knew Revelation had existed. We had never read it or knew of its existence. Now, imagine someone comes up to you, some guy named John who had been living on a Greek island for awhile. He hands you a neat, typewritten copy that matches what is currently found in Revelation. He tells you he wrote it down after God dictated it to him and/or that he saw all of those visions.

Question: Would you assume this modern-day John was insane or did he actually had a valid revelation? Would you accept his writings as biblical truth or as the hallucinations of a zealot? If you would not accept such a modern-day revelation, why do you (if you do) accept the Book of Revelation as inspired when, in most other cases, most people would judge such writing as clearly hallucinatory?


Food for thought.

Sure anytime you take a book like that out of its time period, you can make this case. It just so happens, the case can be made, that it fits perfectly with the rest of the bible.

The problem arises, when would be skeptics judge the situation too fast, and say "of course it can fit, Christians can twist anything to be whatever they want".

While that is certainly true more often than not, it isn't the best of arguments, and furthermore if that is the only argument it only shows the lack of effort the person posing it has exerted into looking at the matter.

I am not saying this is your situation, but more often than not, I find it is the most common situation, even with those that cry on the alter with "I use to be a Christian, I was one for X years, so I know what I am talking about" :sarcastic

 

[MountainHumanist]

Is there any reason to believe Revelation is anything more than the writings of someone who experienced some kind of subjective, mental fugue state brought on by any number of external forces — hallucinogens, epilepsy, brain sickness, temporal lobe malfunction, intense religious fervor, intense apocalyptic fervor, etc. Are not many mental institutions filled with those who claim to have experienced the same visions John did and don't such visions cross religious lines and get "filled-in" with details that validate the mystic's current religious beliefs? In short, isn't this just an uncommon form of human experience that has been repeated throughout history by those who are labeled mystics?

If there is any point in which I have erred please provide empirical (not scriptural) evidence to refute.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Is there any reason to believe Revelation is anything more than the writings of someone who experienced some kind of subjective, mental fugue state brought on by any number of external forces — hallucinogens, epilepsy, brain sickness, temporal lobe malfunction, intense religious fervor, intense apocalyptic fervor, etc. Are not many mental institutions filled with those who claim to have experienced the same visions John did and don't such visions cross religious lines and get "filled-in" with details that validate the mystic's current religious beliefs? In short, isn't this just an uncommon form of human experience that has been repeated throughout history by those who are labeled mystics?

If there is any point in which I have erred please provide empirical (not scriptural) evidence to refute.

Your lack of belief and refusal to accept the notion this book could be unique, needs no further discussion. When can another human convince a brick wall to become a bowl of jello?

For this reason, you enter as a brick wall, there is no way to ever hope of getting anywhere else, even if you claim an interest in becoming something other than a brick wall.

In other words you have exhausted all possible ways to make sense of the book, and have thrown it to the fire, why do you now come in here asking me to take your copy out of the fire and show you something new. It is just too hot for me to handle. Sorry

 

[MountainHumanist]

Wouldn't you expect something written by a Christian zealot to fit the Bible (albeit IMperfectly)? The novel "Scarlett" fits perfectly with the novel "Gone with the Wind." Does that mean either are factual chronicles of the Civil War South? Beyond that, I cannot see how your rejoinder has answered any one of the questions posed. I am not trying to twist anything nor do I have a bone to pick with Revelation since I understand it to be the chronicle of a Christian mystic who clearly experienced a hallucination. At least, that is what the best evidence makes clear. I think Revelation provides great insights into the thought processes of many proto-Christians in a time of great political and religious turmoil. Since many Christians thought the end of the world was near, it's no surprise that given the continued existence of the world, someone would lapse into a fantastical "prophecy" to urge believers to keep holding on. Such things happen with every end-of-the-world belief system. Notice how modern Christian authors also write such polemics as we reach new epochs (Y2k, 2012, etc.). It's a common human pattern.

My only "argument" is that the best evidence suggests John (or whomever authored it) should be viewed under the same critical eye as anyone claiming to hear "voices" or see "visions."

Sure anytime you take a book like that out of its time period, you can make this case. It just so happens, the case can be made, that it fits perfectly with the rest of the bible.

The problem arises, when would be skeptics judge the situation too fast, and say "of course it can fit, Christians can twist anything to be whatever they want".

While that is certainly true more often than not, it isn't the best of arguments, and furthermore if that is the only argument it only shows the lack of effort the person posing it has exerted into looking at the matter.

I am not saying this is your situation, but more often than not, I find it is the most common situation, even with those that cry on the alter with "I use to be a Christian, I was one for X years, so I know what I am talking about" :sarcastic

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Wouldn;t you expect something written by a Christian zealot to fit the Bible (albeit IMperfectly)? The novel "Scarlett" fits perfectly with the novel "Gone with the Wind." Does that mean either are factual chronicles of the Civil War South? Beyond that, I cannot see how your rejoinder has answered any one of the questions posed. I am not trying to twist anything nor do I have a bone to pick with Revelation since I understand it to be the chronicle of a Christian mystic who clearly experienced a hallucination. At least, that is what the best evidence makes clear. I think Revelation provides great insights into the thought processes of many proto-Christians in a time of great political and religious turmoil. Since many Christians thought the end of the world was near, it's no surprise that given the continued existence of the world, someone would lapse into a fantastical "prophecy" to urge believers to keep holding on. Such things happen with every escatological belief system.

My only "argument" is that the best evidence suggests John (or whomeever authored it) should be viewed under the same critical eye as anyone claiming to hear "voices" or see "visions."

Again see post 51...

 

[MountainHumanist]

Why? Plus, I never said I refuse to believe. I simply ask questions. I ask you to set aside your pre-conceptions and look at Revelation as an anthropologist would. Your Jello/brick wall analogy does not make sense to me. Are you saying I refuse to believe new data? Certainly not. I have studied the historical facts surrounding the emergence and Revelation and made my findings based on that. Let's dispense with confusing, gelatin-on-fire metaphors and simply discuss my question. Your answers are non-answers. You cite my lack of belief. Can I assume that you believe things without backing data? If I tell you an invisible dragon lives in my garage, would you display a lack of belief and refusal to accept the notion that my garage could be unique? Why would a human need to convince someone that a thing is something which it is not?

Your lack of belief and refusal to accept the notion this book could be unique, needs no further discussion. When can another human convince a brick wall to become a bowl of jello?

For this reason, you enter as a brick wall, there is no way to ever hope of getting anywhere else, even if you claim an interest in becoming something other than a brick wall.

In other words you have exhausted all possible ways to make sense of the book, and have thrown it to the fire, why do you now come in here asking me to take your copy out of the fire and show you something new. It is just too hot for me to handle. Sorry

 

[MountainHumanist]

Again see post 51...

Again..it does not answer the posed question and seems to be a bit of a rhetorical rhubarb.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Again..it does not answer the posed question and seems to be a bit of a rhetorical rhubarb.

Oh boy, you just don't get it. I am not sidestepping your angle. However it is a simplistic point of view, and only needs a quick few seconds to consider and then move on.

Yes it is a novel idea to think of all the whack jobs locked up for seeing things, and then apply that to the writer of Revelation, and as a modern human come to a seemingly easy conclusion, so long as it is done in the cherry picked fashion you have done it.

However after few seconds of time, I can move on to something more interesting. If in fact the writer was delusional and under the influence of something perhaps, what was written is so finely tuned with the rest of the bible both old and new testaments, it would be quite a work of amazement. Not to say it isn't possible, but there is plenty to study, when you can get past your ego (and that's all it is) and see it from the proper point of view of biblical context. It begins to look less and less fanatical or delusional.

Why are you even wasting time in here, if you are so far convinced of your superiority? I am not worthy kind man.

 

[MountainHumanist]

Why is my view simplistic? I am simply saying: Follow the evidence. Again, you fail to provide evidence that Revelation is finely tuned. As far as I can tell, the author new some Pauline Christianity and may have been familiar with Daniel. In fact, his view of Warrior Jesus seems very at odds with the gospel accounts (the sword in his mouth, etc.). It sounds like you don't really want to have an honest debate. Your strategy is to simply dismiss anyone who disagrees with you by trying to label them with "weasel words" (name calling). Obviously, you are uninterested in having an intelligent discussion.

The END.

Oh boy, you just don't get it. I am not sidestepping your angle. However it is a simplistic point of view, and only needs a quick few seconds to consider and then move on.

Yes it is a novel idea to think of all the whack jobs locked up for seeing things, and then apply that to the writer of Revelation, and as a modern human come to a seemingly easy conclusion, so long as it is done in the cherry picked fashion you have done it.

However after few seconds of time, I can move on to something more interesting. If in fact the writer was delusional and under the influence of something perhaps, what was written is so finely tuned with the rest of the bible both old and new testaments, it would be quite a work of amazement. Not to say it isn't possible, but there is plenty to study, when you can get past your ego (and that's all it is) and see it from the proper point of view of biblical context. It begins to look less and less fanatical or delusional.

Why are you even wasting time in here, if you are so far convinced of your superiority? I am not worthy kind man.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Why is my view simplistic? I am simply saying: Follow the evidence. Again, you fail to provide evidence that Revelation is finely tuned. As far as I can tell, the author new some Pauline Christianity and may have been familiar with Daniel. In fact, his view of Warrior Jesus seems very at odds with the gospel accounts (the sword in his mouth, etc.). It sounds like you don't really want to have an honest debate. Your strategy is to simply dismiss anyone who disagrees with you by trying to label them with "weasel words" (name calling). Obviously, you are uninterested in having an intelligent discussion.

The END.

First, I owe you an apology. I hope you can except it for my tone towards you.
Secondly, I created this thread when I first joined the RF, and only today did I realize it was in a debate section. Done out of pure ignorance of using the forum. I know better now, and realize why you were so strongly trying to debate the topic.

My intentions were discuss ideas and not debate, so had I known better it would have gone into a non-debate section.

See you around on the forum.

 

[AK4]

Why? Plus, I never said I refuse to believe. I simply ask questions. I ask you to set aside your pre-conceptions and look at Revelation as an anthropologist would. Your Jello/brick wall analogy does not make sense to me. Are you saying I refuse to believe new data? Certainly not. I have studied the historical facts surrounding the emergence and Revelation and made my findings based on that. Let's dispense with confusing, gelatin-on-fire metaphors and simply discuss my question. Your answers are non-answers. You cite my lack of belief. Can I assume that you believe things without backing data? If I tell you an invisible dragon lives in my garage, would you display a lack of belief and refusal to accept the notion that my garage could be unique? Why would a human need to convince someone that a thing is something which it is not?

Sorry to jump in but i have a question for you MH since if you read the bottom of my posts you will see my motto, i too ask questions upon questions. Anyway why is it that only those of the bible are "madmen with visions". There is plenty of wonderful books and stories and poetry out there that are strange and bizarre yet for example the author of Dantes Inferno, he is not considered a mad man [although anyone who would believe in such a god has got to be sick in the head IMO].

So why is John a mad man and not the likes of people who also come out with fantastic stories? Its funny because probably more people think John was a mad man but Nostradomus wasnt. Try figuring that out.

BTW this is only as speaking as one who doesnt understand spiritual things in Revelation and the rest of the Word.

 

[logician]

True prophets cannot exist in a chaotic multiverse.