My agreement with god.

[St0ne]

I live in a christian country, was brought up on christian values although not forced into christianity by virtue of where I was born christianity has been imprinted on my persona.

I am a Buddhist, atheistic towards the abrahamic god of christ\islam\etc and polytheistic religions, agnostic although doubtful to other ideas of god.

Last night I read a most of an account by Bill Wiese of his alleged 23 minutes in Hell, although I do not believe in Hell to be 100% honest it still managed to stir some fear inside me. The account to me like the bible is not without it's flaws and contradictions but ignoring the lack of credibility to the story I cannot ignore how it made me feel. So last night I made an agreement with all gods. With all my heart I ask that they judge me not by my belief or lack there of in them but by how I live my life as it is not in my heart to believe in them as forgiveness, to repent or any other such things that will apparantly secure my ticket to heaven. It is something I can not do no matter how much I tried or wanted to, it is simply not in me.

For a moment I've ignored all that I do believe in, that I have no soul, hold the key to my own liberation and the very fact that life is suffering and so hell can really be found anywhere. Now all I can do is live as I see fit which is the only honest way I can live, My Buddhist beliefs are honest so I ask for mercy from any god who would send me to hell as I feel I best live honestly, to be the only truely godly way to live.

 

[Katzpur]

I live in a christian country, was brought up on christian values although not forced into christianity by virtue of where I was born christianity has been imprinted on my persona.

I am a Buddhist, atheistic towards the abrahamic god of christ\islam\etc and polytheistic religions, agnostic although doubtful to other ideas of god.

Last night I read a most of an account by Bill Wiese of his alleged 23 minutes in Hell, although I do not believe in Hell to be 100% honest it still managed to stir some fear inside me. The account to me like the bible is not without it's flaws and contradictions but ignoring the lack of credibility to the story I cannot ignore how it made me feel. So last night I made an agreement with all gods. With all my heart I ask that they judge me not by my belief or lack there of in them but by how I live my life as it is not in my heart to believe in them as forgiveness, to repent or any other such things that will apparantly secure my ticket to heaven. It is something I can not do no matter how much I tried or wanted to, it is simply not in me.

For a moment I've ignored all that I do believe in, that I have no soul, hold the key to my own liberation and the very fact that life is suffering and so hell can really be found anywhere. Now all I can do is live as I see fit which is the only honest way I can live, My Buddhist beliefs are honest so I ask for mercy from any god who would send me to hell as I feel I best live honestly, to be the only truely godly way to live.

Hi, St0ne.

Wow! Your post really got to me. Even though I do believe in the Abrahamic God, I have always believed that the most He can and does expect of us is to live our lives with integrity. To me, that means adhering to whatever standard of moral conduct you sincerely believe to be right. I simply cannot imagine that He will not be merciful or that He will use our honest but misguided intentions against us. Somehow, I am confident that I'm right about that. I don't even see Him condemning those who don't recognize Him as their God. From where I'm standing, He's not that petty. Every single solitary one of us is in the position of having to choose whatever path seems right to us. None of us can see past the grave. We simply have to do the best we can and leave it up to God to respond to our efforts with His perfect love. I don't worry for one minute that He won't do that.

Katz

 

[St0ne]

If there is a god I think you are right but it's not something I can really concern myself with to much because regardless I can only follow the path I have chosen. I was directed to the account by a christian who obviously doesn't feel the same as you or I.

 

[Sunstone]

The purpose of life is to play a cosmic shell game in which we guess under which shell is paradise and under which is hell? That seems to reduce the purpose of life to an absurdity. Perhaps even a con game.

 

[Buttercup]

Last night I read a most of an account by Bill Wiese of his alleged 23 minutes in Hell, although I do not believe in Hell to be 100% honest it still managed to stir some fear inside me. The account to me like the bible is not without it's flaws and contradictions but ignoring the lack of credibility to the story I cannot ignore how it made me feel.

Hi Stone,

I have not read this story of Bill Wiese and his trip to hell. Would you mind summarizing it for us please? Sounds interesting.

 

[St0ne]

http://www.spiritlessons.com/Documents/BillWiese_23MinutesInHell_Text.htm

This is the link to the text and mp3's

 

[Buttercup]

Thanks for the link, Stone.

I read through most of the page after skipping over the scripture and I have to say that I was unconvinced of the authenticity of his story. It seems to me that he simply had a dream or this is something he made up to sell a book.

This type of propaganda is one of the reasons I left Christianity recently. Why would God need to instill fear in people to come to him? Why would a gracious and loving God want to scare people to him? It has to be much more gratifying to a God to have people come to him completely free of all guilt and fear. Who would want someone to follow them because they were scared into it? A dictator perhaps.

Please don't let this story worry you for one more second. It's my thought that there is no such place as hell. With all the religious choices we humans have on earth....for a God to punish us to hell for choosing the wrong one makes no sense. Most of us are simply trying to do our best with zero visits from a creator. The only "proof" we have of a creator is from the mouths of others. Surely we can't be condemned for that.

 

[St0ne]

I totally agree with you Buttercup, Thanks.

 

[St0ne]

He is what I wrote to the person who directed me to the the site and his reply.

Thanks, although I'm a no believer in both Hell and God, this story did stir some fear in me. Unfortunatley no matter how much I wanted or tried to I can not honestley do what is required of me to quarantee my ticket to heaven, it is simply not in my heart. And I think it would be foolish to not follow what is in my heart, don't you agree?

his Reply

mmm, not sure I do agree. First of all, everybody who goes to hell regrets it. There is a second testimonial on that site of a woman who was taken on a "tour" of hell which took three days. Ive also heard her storey and there she saw many people, even people who believed in the existence of God, who were desparate to get out of Hell but had no way out.

If you can open up your heart enough to consider the possibility of a God existing, then thats a start. If you earnestly seek God with all of your heart, then He will show himself to you by his own means.

For me, God manifested himself one day when I prayed for healing in my sprained wrist, and within an hour I was healed. This was at a major christian gathering in Sydney, and I have heard many reports of healings happening everywhere else - miracles that only God could do.

God, who created you and I, and who loved you before you were even born, doesnt want any of his people to go to hell. hell is a place for sinners, for people who rejected their creator. And nor do I wish for even my worst enemies to have to endure Hell.

being saved from Hell involves repenting of your sin and achknowledging Jesus as your Lord and saviour. I urge that you think about that. Id also urge you to consider the sheer significance of the fact that nobody dies and simply rots, like 1shot1kill suggests in one of my threads. We all live eternally, and what we do on Earth determines whether we live a glorious life with God in heaven, or whether we become separated from God by our sins and live a torturous life in hell, which seems so bad I hate to think about it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

There are a few Christian converts who claim to have unpleasant near death experiences. Bill Wiese is one. Rev. Howard Storm is another. But they would have you believe that this is the case for all atheistic NDEs, and this is not so according to this website:


http://www.near-death.com/experiences/atheists01.html



My NDE Analysis of 50 NDEs from this Website
The following is my analysis of 50 NDEs from this website. More information about my research methods can be found at the bottom of this web page.
(1) Concerning the NDE aspect of feeling overwhelming love, more experiencers in the category of atheist (75%) reported experiencing overwhelming love than any other category of experiencer.
This highest percentage may be a reflection of how atheists, more than any other category of experiencers, may be more overwhelmed by the love of a God they didn't believe existed. This highest percentage may also be a reflection of how most atheists get what they don't expect - an experience with God - and get what they need (divine love).

(2) Concerning the NDE aspect of experiencing mental telepathy, the percentage of all atheists who experienced mental telepathy is (65%).
This is not the highest percentage nor the lowest percentage of people in a particular category who experienced mental telepathy. This is interesting because it may be assumed that the atheist category of experiencers should be the least category of people open to the paranormal idea of mental telepathy.
However, it was the non-Christian category that experienced the lowest percentage of experiencers (50%) experiencing mental telepathy. The highest percentage was in the new age category which may be a reflection of how mental telepathy is considered more of a new age concept than any other category of experiencer.

(3) Concerning the NDE aspect of having a life review, more atheists (100%) reported having a life review than any other category of experiencer.
This high percentage may be a reflection of how atheists, more than any other category of experiencer, need a life review to understand their life from God's perspective. Atheists generally reject the concept of an afterlife. A life review would certainly teach them how the belief in an afterlife has its advantages. Because atheists do not believe that their actions have divine consequences, this high percentage of atheist experiencers having a life review may be a reflection of how all atheists get what they don't expect - judgment of their life - and get what they need - a perspective of their life from God's perspective.

(4) Concerning the NDE aspect of seeing God, the percentage of all atheists who saw a divine being is (75%).
Although this percentage isn't the highest percentage of all the categories of experiencers who saw God, it may be a reflection of how a majority of atheists get what they don't expect - an experience of God - and get what they need - knowledge of God. This also demonstrates how people don't have to be religious to see God after death.

(5) Concerning the NDE aspect of feeling tremendous ecstasy, the percentage of atheists who experienced tremendous ecstasy is (50%).
The atheist category is not the category with the highest percentage of experiencers having tremendous ecstasy. Another point of interest is within the atheist category itself. Because the percentage of atheists experiencing tremendous ecstasy is equal to those atheists who didn't, this statistic is basically irrelevant other than it destroys the idea that atheists don't have positive NDEs.

(6) Concerning the NDE aspect of receiving unlimited knowledge, more atheists (63%) reported receiving unlimited knowledge than any other category of experiencer.
Since atheists generally emphasize knowledge over religious faith, this high percentage may be a reflection of how a majority of atheists get what they desire - knowledge - and get what they need - knowledge of God.

(7) Concerning the NDE aspect of traveling through different afterlife realms, fewer atheists (25%) reported traveling through a number of different afterlife realms than any other category of experiencer.
This low percentage may be a reflection of how their NDEs are limited in scope because of their disbelief in life after death. This low percentage may also be a reflection of how a majority of atheists may be getting what they expect - a restricted understanding of the afterlife.

(8) Concerning the NDE aspect of being told they are not ready to die, fewer atheists (13%) reported being told they were not ready to die than any other category of experiencer. This low percentage may be a reflection of how they, more than any other category of experiencer, already knew they were not ready to die (as was the case with Rev. Howard Storm) and didn't need to be told so. This low percentage may also be a reflection of how the vast majority of atheists don't get what they don't need - information that they are not ready to die.

(9) Concerning the NDE aspect of meeting Jesus, the percentage of atheists who reported meeting Jesus is (50%).





Stories like Storm's and Wiese's are marketed to alarm and scare folks into converting. Our tradition teaches that there is a hell-realm, but that it isn't eternal and it certainly isn't a place that we are banished to. The same website I referred to has the opinion that the only people that experienced the hellfire and brimstone hell are those who hung around the fundamentalist camps and either believed it or not. The image was still imprinted in their minds.



There is one story of one Reverend Pittman who died and came back after being judged by a wrathful God.........his story goes that Pittman was escorted to God and was judged mercilessly for his empty works despite how long he preached his name. Pittman accepted what he believed to be his fate as being thrown into the lake of fire, and then turned around to request one more question from God, and suddenly found a God of love.



Of course, experiences such as these confirm my beliefs more and more, that our life as well as our afterlife experiences rest very much on our state of mind and how we perceive reality. Just rest easy, and know that whatever deal you made with any deities out there is all good, and that things do kind of depend on you holding up your end of the deal to be a good person.



Peace,
Mystic

 

[Sunstone]

Thanks, although I'm a no believer in both Hell and God, this story did stir some fear in me. Unfortunatley no matter how much I wanted or tried to I can not honestley do what is required of me to quarantee my ticket to heaven, it is simply not in my heart. And I think it would be foolish to not follow what is in my heart, don't you agree?

It sounds to me, St0ne, like the guy you're corresponding with wants you to give up your honesty and integrity in fear of hell and convert to his religion. That's bad advice.

 

[NoahideHiker]

I live in a christian country, was brought up on christian values although not forced into christianity by virtue of where I was born christianity has been imprinted on my persona.

I am a Buddhist, atheistic towards the abrahamic god of christ\islam\etc and polytheistic religions, agnostic although doubtful to other ideas of god.

Last night I read a most of an account by Bill Wiese of his alleged 23 minutes in Hell, although I do not believe in Hell to be 100% honest it still managed to stir some fear inside me. The account to me like the bible is not without it's flaws and contradictions but ignoring the lack of credibility to the story I cannot ignore how it made me feel. So last night I made an agreement with all gods. With all my heart I ask that they judge me not by my belief or lack there of in them but by how I live my life as it is not in my heart to believe in them as forgiveness, to repent or any other such things that will apparantly secure my ticket to heaven. It is something I can not do no matter how much I tried or wanted to, it is simply not in me.

For a moment I've ignored all that I do believe in, that I have no soul, hold the key to my own liberation and the very fact that life is suffering and so hell can really be found anywhere. Now all I can do is live as I see fit which is the only honest way I can live, My Buddhist beliefs are honest so I ask for mercy from any god who would send me to hell as I feel I best live honestly, to be the only truely godly way to live.

This is completely just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt...

This is the thing about religion; what's the old saying?, wherever you are there you are. Reading about other's near death experiences can be stirring and make us stop and think. But what of the experiences of others? When I have christian missionaries tell me fantastic stories of how they were instantly set free free from sin and hate by becoming a christian and they use this as proof i stop them cold and say, "Yes, but what of the person who experienced the exact same thing by becoming a Muslim? A Buddhist?". The same goes for near death experiences. People from other religions have them and they align with their faiths. Does this make them equally true? Equally false?

I do kind of have a different view on religions because I have been in two separate somewhat diametrically opposing religions. The Creator was with me in both relationships so I do know He honors our efforts no matter what. One avenue here is to not make agreements with the gods but make some demands for damn answers to life. Say, "If their is a Creator among you all step the hell up.".

 

[michel]

I live in a christian country, was brought up on christian values although not forced into christianity by virtue of where I was born christianity has been imprinted on my persona.

I am a Buddhist, atheistic towards the abrahamic god of christ\islam\etc and polytheistic religions, agnostic although doubtful to other ideas of god.

Last night I read a most of an account by Bill Wiese of his alleged 23 minutes in Hell, although I do not believe in Hell to be 100% honest it still managed to stir some fear inside me. The account to me like the bible is not without it's flaws and contradictions but ignoring the lack of credibility to the story I cannot ignore how it made me feel. So last night I made an agreement with all gods. With all my heart I ask that they judge me not by my belief or lack there of in them but by how I live my life as it is not in my heart to believe in them as forgiveness, to repent or any other such things that will apparantly secure my ticket to heaven. It is something I can not do no matter how much I tried or wanted to, it is simply not in me.

For a moment I've ignored all that I do believe in, that I have no soul, hold the key to my own liberation and the very fact that life is suffering and so hell can really be found anywhere. Now all I can do is live as I see fit which is the only honest way I can live, My Buddhist beliefs are honest so I ask for mercy from any god who would send me to hell as I feel I best live honestly, to be the only truely godly way to live.

Firstly, I have to say that I admire your sincerity, and also admire you for following your heart.

To some extent, I am in the same shoes that you wear, although I do believe in a deity. I have never gone so far as to ask for forgiveness from the mainstream Gods, although I have asked for enlightenment and help many times, in Knowing that I am right - or wrong, whichever the case maybe.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Here is another review of other NDErs as opposed to Howard Storm's hellish afterlife experience:



http://www.nde-paradigm.com/religionandnde.html




For years, for centuries, the concept of the unconditionally loving, non-judgmental god revealed to those who reach the light in NDE’s has been steadfastly opposed not only by atheists but even more so by - of all things – organized religion. Indeed, NDErs themselves would probably be divided about who disbelieves their experience more: the medical doctors who can’t escape material concepts or the religionists who can’t escape dogma.
That’s one of the reason Howard Storm’s book, "My Decent into Death" (Doubleday, [FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]http://www.randomhouse.com/doubleday/catalog/display.pperl?0385513763[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]) is such a unique NDE account. Now a minister, Storm is both a NDEr and a devout Christian. Descent also has the eye-catching support (and forward by) Anne Rice, esteemed author of "Interview with the Vampire" - indeed, Storm says without her support his story would not be published.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]There’s another way in which Descent sets itself apart from other NDE books – Storm’s experience was negative, as negative as his life. In his pre-NDE life, Storm says, "I believed that if you were born into this dog-eat-dog kind of world, you might as well be a winner instead of a loser. All the people I knew were out for themselves…. Anyone who wasn’t pragmatic and realistic about life (like me) was a loser… The one who dies with the most toys wins. Compassion is for the weak."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]I know a lot of people that have adopted that attitude at one time in their life, myself among them. That in itself makes Descent a great cautionary tale. He is a Christian Marley for all the Scrooges of the world, wailing at the chains he forged in life.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]After an emergency operation in Paris in 1985, Storm found himself outside his body, and heard voices summoning him into a mist of sorts, following other beings. That’s reminiscent of the many NDErs who say that after death they entered some type of "void"… a kind of waiting station before one is greeted by others or summoned by The Light. Most people find the void comfortable. [/FONT]
But a[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]t this point some NDErs find themselves in the company of spirits like themselves – and that was Storm’s misfortune. Summoned by them, he followed these beings into what became total darkness. The beings he followed - "think of the worst imaginable person stripped of every impulse of compassion" - taunted, then attacked him, and he futilely fought back. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]For those who subscribe to the "survival of the fittest" philosophy of life, Storm’s no-pain-barred account of chickens coming home to roost in the afterlife will be genuinely disturbing.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]"My attempts to fight back only provoked greater merriment…. They were playing with me just as a cat plays with a mouse. Every new assault brought howls of cacophonous laughter…. My torment was their excitement… Eventually I became too badly torn up and too broken to resist. Most of them gave up tormenting me because I was no longer amusing, but a few still picked and gnawed at me and ridiculed me for no longer being amusing. I had been torn apart. In that wretched state I lay there in the darkness."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Storm’s salvation – and this is true of other negative NDEs – was a call for love, in the form of the greatest Hail Mary prayer I’ve ever heard:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]"Yea, though I walk in the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with me. For purple mountain majesty, mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord. Deliver us from evil. One nation under God. God bless America."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Anyone who forges the 23rd Psalm, "America the Beautiful" and "Battle Hymn of the Republic" lyrics, and the American Pledge of Allegiance into a soul-saving prayer probably deserves (or needs) salvation… and indeed, Storm says he was rescued by Jesus, "more loving than anyone can begin to imagine or describe." [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Upon recovery, Storm immediately took a different road. He went to a church for the first time in decades, where he disturbed others by throwing himself on the floor and praising God. Today, he is pastor of Zion United Church in Cincinnati.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Storm’s account should, by some standards, make him a NDE Poster Boy: atheist turned minister. He could become one – but I hope not.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]The problem is that while NDE’s provide knowledge, they don’t provide wisdom. In Descent, Storm tries to dress the god revealed by NDEs into Christian clothing, and it just doesn’t fit. Most NDErs will be astonished at Storm’s claim that "contemporary Christian theology" comfortably fits with the god experienced in the NDE. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]As one NDEr, an atheist like Storm, says, "I saw nothing at all consistent with Christian theology. I have seen many be able to associate with the concept of a man completing himself with the sacred nature of the creator- but I have read little about people coming back with a Christian theme born into their being."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Says another NDEr, who encountered a Being of Light, "My only "religion" now, is my relationship with that Being/Father/Creator/Saviour - the term doesn't matter. I was raised a Christian, so I had an image in my mind of the biblical Jesus. The Being in my NDE seemed so much more to me. My human mind had its' stubborn image, put together from the words of other men, and my soul had the true image. It seems the answer was to subdue the mind(ego), and listen to my soul. And that took years for me - sometimes religion has a lot to answer for."[/FONT]



More next post.





Peace,
Mystic

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Continued from same source............



Only Storm can explain why he reached a different conclusion. Or reconcile the following:

• [FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Storm says this earthly life is an "opportunity to prepare ourselves for heaven is given only once." Yet countless NDErs have spoken of being aware of past lives and future lives. This thinking actually makes the earthly existence more important than the eternal, spiritual one. [/FONT]

• [FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]"No one ever born was good enough to go to heaven." Oh, Howard! We came from heaven; we are the stuff of heaven. We’re ALL good enough – you, and people far worse than you, have had NDEs in which unconditional love is expressed. How awful, how terrible, that modern Christian theology should throw such false and fearsome doubt and pain on us – the children of god. Damned and sinful from the start? What type of god is that?[/FONT]

• [FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Storm says God has emotions, suffers, is disappointed in us at times, and feels "misery" when rejected. But Howard, God is not mentally unstable. God is unconditional love, perfect. And if we are here to learn from mistakes, as virtually every NDEr reports, then aren’t mistakes, even horrible ones, fundamentally necessary? [/FONT]

• [FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Storm says God was "very unhappy with the course of human history." Indeed, "We are supposed to learn that war is unacceptable and prevent wars from happening." Well, Howard, not to embrace war, but just how are "we" supposed to do this? Among the worst beliefs that religions foster is the idea of collective responsibility for the perfection of the Earth, because it god-sanctions everything from the middle age Crusades to modern day terrorists. If God's goal is a perfect world, then we have to change others - but in NDE life reviews (and Storm had one), no such "collective responsibility" is seen. It is the individual’s life that is reviewed – you are here to improve yourself, and from that comes a better world. You have that incredible opportunity every day, and you have it in part because of the wars, greed, unfairness and tragedy around you. The world is fine. Win the war within you – that’s your responsibility.[/FONT]

• [FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]God, it seems, is also unhappy with the USA, and "sees the people of the United States become increasingly greedy, self-centered and uncaring." Yet every NDEr, Storm included, encounters a dimension where there is no such thing as time – in other words, at this instant, the happenings in a Brazilian village in 1650 are taking place. Given that, why is 2005 in America any more important than Brazil in 1650? You’d think god was sitting by, hoping and fretting that we will do better "tomorrow." There is only "now."[/FONT]

• [FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Jesus is the only way. Asking which religion is the best, Storm is told "the one that brings you closest to God." Sounds good, but then Storm reveals the fine print: that road must lead through Jesus. Needless to say, the countless number of NDErs who are Muslims, Jews, atheists, agnostics and spiritualists do not receive any such admonition. A better interpretation is that the road to god must come by way of the teachings of love taught by Jesus and many, many others. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]To be fair to Storm, he certainly got the message of love from his NDE. He isn’t a fundamentalist preaching fire-and brimstone. Try as he might, though, Storm can’t get away from the religious paradigm of a very, very man-like god. As Mark Twain famously observed, "God created man in his own image, and man returned the favor."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Storm’s god is an entity apart from us. He says that "Hell is separation from God," and that’s true in part. But a better conclusion would be, "Hell is separation from self." Because we already are a part of god, nothing can change that. It is the false perception that creates the illusion of separateness.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]And where, oh where Howard, is the idea of self-love in Descent? And the knowledge that being loving and compassionate toward oneself is every bit as important as extending those qualities to others? A NDEr I know – a woman who had several of them, in fact - recalls that in her major one, the message she received was "Don’t be so hard on yourself." [/FONT][FONT=Times
 New Roman,Times,serif]Another recalls being horrified at her life review and gently being told, "You’re only human." Now, that’s a loving god for you! [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]What, then, could be worse: the rejection of NDE validity by organized religion, or its distortion and co-optation? Storm’s book will certainly cause many Christians who read it to consider NDEs as legitimate – or at least, not a trick by Satan, as many have actually been told by the religious establishment. That’s certainly good. And Lord knows, it’s certainly about time.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]But the discrepancy between the religious paradigm and the NDE paradigm is cavernous, to say the least. Storm barely mentions encounters with other NDErs in Descent, but he surely must know by now that few would reach his conclusions.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]What, then, is one to do with My Descent Into Death? Keep the love, compassion, caring and the understanding that Storm embraces – and toss the fears, expectations, demands, condemnations that are the terribly false illusions of religion. [/FONT]








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So, take it for what it's worth, St0ne. Do your own research and see if this guy sounds like he's got a good degree of accountability. How does his experience in hell match with his peers? I'd certainly ask him what his goals in life, his personality, and all that ramma-jamma was before his experience regardless of his spiritual beliefs. How loving was this man before his NDE?




His account could also be fraudulent, too, as has happened before. There is an account of a Buddhist monk who apparently died and three days later came back to life after the routine purification rituals and right before his cremation. He reported being in hell and being told that Gautama Buddha was burning and suffering in hell because he didn't believe in the eternal God, and to spread the word that Jesus is the only way to heaven.



This former monk's actions afterward has led many to believe that his account is false, due to his constant harrassment, arrogance, and belligerence afterward not only toward non-Christians, but toward those within his own congregation.



Want more info on NDEs? Dr. Raymond Moody is the best place to start since he has dedicated his life study toward researching NDEs. With his data, others have been able to expound and come to their own conclusions about what happens after death, and very rarely do they come to the same conclusion as this man that you are corresponding with.




This is what drew me to the tradition that I study now, because the study of death and the experience in the bardos helps me to contemplate and prepare for my own moment to go. Reading the accounts of NDEs is quite fascinating to me, so I'd suggest reading and studying more accounts rather than just his.............research all those that experienced a "heaven" and who experienced a "hell" to broaden your mind.



Death can be scary, since it ultimately forces us to let go of our wordly attachments, including our ego. It's a shame that Bill Wiese is finding himself in a profitable position and able to cash in on people's rational fear of death. His seperation from his peers also speaks volumes on his intentions in telling his story. Consider that, because intentions are a big thing when it comes to karma.




Peace,
Mystic

 

[NoahideHiker]

But always remember the most important thing, be the best _________ you can be. Be it a Buddhist, Muslim, Christian or whatever. Be the best you can be. Find the common thread within all faiths which is, do kindness to others and never stop learning.

 

[St0ne]

I must just say that the person I was chatting with is not the person who had the NDE.

It's quite obviously that this persons was merely attempting to scare people into "seeing the light", he ignores others NDE's without reason and believes others for no other reason than they agree with his world view. It's clear that he thinks that even if you can't honestly give yourself to god and christ you should anyway. He also gave his own reason for believing in god, that his sprained wrist was healed at a congeration this was his miracle. Last year I had a badly sprained ankle, I must admit I didn't invoke a god to heal it but I did want it healed and now it is healed, a miracle? Why does he not see the miracle that his creator had already given him, his body with it's amazing healing functions.

Trying to fool me maybe, I think he is trying to fool himself. I'm not saying he shouldn't believe in a god but that maybe he should more carefully look at why he does believe using some common sense, utimately believing in god requires taking a leap of faith but I think he has taken his far to early.

 

[St0ne]

Thanks Mystic,

Maybe I can help him research some more rather than just taking this one claim as the one true NDE.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Thanks Mystic,

Maybe I can help him research some more rather than just taking this one claim as the one true NDE.

There are thousands upon thousands out there. Some bizarre, some frightening, but most are liberating. My kids' great grandmother on their father's side had an NDE who left Christianity, felt entirely bitter at God for allowing one of her children to die as well as her husband, and when she flatlined had an experience that encompassed the most beautiful visions, sounds, and feelings she'd ever had in her 70 years. She told me after sharing her story that after her NDE, she is not afraid to die.



From a Christian standpoint, it sounds like she was completely forgiven of her anger and bitterness, and I feel happy for her. From other research on the subject it is my conclusion that most NDEs are very much like hers.




I can only imagine just how scary it would be if the first NDE hell-story you hear is expressed by someone using it to witness the saving grace of Christ. And to read that he didn't even have the NDE? That's sad.



Peace,
Mystic

 

[St0ne]

more discussion, we are getting more and more unreasonable now, to me what he is speaking of is incredibly shallow religion.

I am open to the posability of god but of course I had many questions. Even accepting a god exists your life is now reduced to a game where you must pick from a group of cups that are all the same and hope that the one you pick has the shell under it. That seems to reduce the purpose of life to an absurdity. Perhaps even a con game.

Why would god want to scare people to him? I have done some research and found that actually of the many NDE's and OBE's that have been investigated most come to very different conclusions than the two you talk about. Some have even described meeting a vengful god who would send them to hell then turning around and meeting a merciful god who will take them to heaven. See here for more http://www.near-death.com/experiences/atheists01.html

And what of the Hindus and Buddhists who have similar experiences and found salvation in those religions, no one can or has given any reason to believe one over another unless in the case of mental or drug induced experiences, but what of those that are as genuine as christian ones?

I must ask of you wrist, do you not realise that as a creation of your god he had already healed it? The body does not need miracles of healing for sprained wrists it already has that miracle built in, you just have to wait.

Finally would you ask that I give up my honesty, integrity and where I have found truth in fear of hell?


Well. Where to start. Firstly I'll say that the two accounts which i referred to in my post are not claimed to be NDE's an outer-body experience they may be, but I do not believe that these people experience of hell can be classified as a NDE because neither of them actually died. Rather, I believe that, as they both say in their testimonies, that God simply chose them to experience hell so that they can warn others on Earth about it, to let others know the perils of atheism.

I cant claim to know much about hindus and buddhists finding "salvation" in their religions, except that I personally do not believe such claims to be true. perhaps they "feel" saved but have in fact been blinded and misguided by Satan.

When you said that belief in God is made confusing because there are so many religions and "gods" to choose from, I believe that alternative religions are simply creations of man, and Satan cleverly uses these other religions to distract and confuse us, and if we are to go astray of christianity then Satan wins, since he wants us to go to Hell.

Regarding my wrist, I think it is a little unusual, miraculous that inb one hour it can be quite painful (enough that Id try and avoid bending it) and then in the next hour, it is totally pain free. I dont think sprains heal that quickly.

If you were to compare the many different religions, you'll find that Christianity is the only one to have explanations for, and lay claim to, all of these things:
- Creation of the universe, and everything in it,
- What happens when we die
- The promise of salvation and a joyful, eternal life in heaven with the creator, our heavenly Father (God)
- good, sensible rules by which we should live our life contained in the bible, a guide to living a prosperous and healthy and blessed life
- The most popular, widely distributed book in the world is the Bible

Also, in 1 Kings chapter 18, there is a famous story where the prophet Elijah disproves Baal's credibility and in the process, the credibilityof every other man made belief system, since the God that elijah calls upon is the one who ignites the sacrifice on the alter, which has been soaked in water, and ended the long drought. See the chapter 18 section here:

http://www.slate.com/id/2153944/?nav=navoa


Man, Im going to have to suggest that Atomic make the test entry box for PM's about twice as big - it sucks only being able to see about 12 short lines of what I've typed!

Lastly, God does not want to use hell to scare us into belief. In fact, a person who only believes in God "just in case there really is a heaven and hell" will not enter heaven because that kind of belief shows a lack of true faith. Hell was created purely for those angels like Satan who rejected God and who wanted to have the same level of authority as God, which is not possible. God banished these angels from heaven. unfortunately, anybody who is not willing to recieve forgiveness for their sins cannot be made clean and perfect by God, and since nobody who is unclean can enter the kingdom of Heaven, they must live eternally in Hell, which is the price to pay for our Sins.

Thankfully for us, Jesus paid the price of our sins when he was crucified on the cross. Jesus took the punishment for all of our sins that we ever comitted and ever will commit. When Jesus was crucified, it was actually as though Jesus himself had committed all of our sins and therefore he paid the price. But for us to recieve the promises of God, we must believe first and repent of our sins (turn 180 degrees and go down the path of righteousness, not sin)