Muslims ONLY: Types of Kufr

[TashaN]

**MOD POST**

Thread has been moved to the Same Faith Debates Forum

Enjoy debating!​

 

[.lava]

Again all I am seeing is opinion from you and am not getting any Sharia proofs.

matter of fact everything she's said has its roots in Qur'an. Sharia is written in Qur'an. i am proud of her. i hope those men who you call Ulama begin to realize becoming Islam starts from within hearts and form there it goes out side. not the other way around, naturally


.

 

[AbuKhalid]

matter of fact everything she's said has its roots in Qur'an. Sharia is written in Qur'an. i am proud of her. i hope those men who you call Ulama begin to realize becoming Islam starts from within hearts and form there it goes out side. not the other way around, naturally

No, its her opinion of the Quran. You, her nor me have not the ability to do tafseer despite what we may think. And the Sharia is written in more than the Quran.

Is what I said not in the Quran and do you reject Ibn Kathirs Tafseer, which is the most widely accepted Tafseer of the Quran?

i hope those men who you call Ulama begin to realize becoming Islam starts from within hearts

Muslims should not talk like this about the scholars.

 

[Breathe]

And the Sharia is written in more than the Quran.

Can you please elaborate on this?

 

[AbuKhalid]

Can you please elaborate on this?

Yes. The Sharia Law comes from several different places. The Quran and Sunnah are the main two, but also ijma (consensus of the Scholars) and Qiyas (analogical reasoning by the scholars). An example of Qiyas would be that the Quran forbids alcohol so the scholars can reason that drugs are also haram, despite them not being mentioned in the Quran or Sunnah.

 

[Sahar]

Your understanding is rigid..Extreme....and Scary !!​

It's true that such understanding is dangerous on our societies and there are Muslim youth who are victims to such thinking but I don't understand what he is trying to do and what he is trying to present to non Muslims if 3/4 of his posts is about violence, the sword, "offensive Jihad", kufr and apostasy. Where are the other aspects of Islam? Where is mercy, tolerance, conviction and justice that Islam aims at?

At least there should be moderation of the amount while discussing these topics but apparently moderation is not in his dictionary.

It's really true that Muslims can harm the da'wa more than hateful non-Muslims.

 

[Breathe]

An example of Qiyas would be that the Quran forbids alcohol so the scholars can reason that drugs are also haram, despite them not being mentioned in the Quran or Sunnah.

About this! I've been meaning to ask... the Qur'an says "if much intoxicates, even a little is haram", which I think makes it quite obvious.
What about those who use khat, for example (as they do in Somalia)? Does this make them kufr? And, is it permissible to drink non-alcoholic wine or non-alcoholic beer, for example?

This may be a bit hijack-thread-y though!

 

[AbuKhalid]

It's true that such understanding is dangerous on our societies and there are Muslim youth who are victims to such thinking but I don't understand what he is trying to do and what he is trying to present to non Muslims if 3/4 of his posts is about violence, the sword, "offensive Jihad", kufr and apostasy. Where are the other aspects of Islam? Where is mercy, tolerance, conviction and justice that Islam aims at?

At least there should be moderation of the amount while discussing these topics but apparently moderation is not in his dictionary.

It's really true that Muslims can harm the da'wa more than hateful non-Muslims.

Well quite obviously as the topic is on this subject then its natural that thats what I will talk about. If I began talking about salat in this thread would it make any sense?

I think if you actually looked at the threads I started on this forum you will find that almost all of them are about the other aspects of Islam. Maybe you should have done that before coming to your judgement of me.

So please inform yourself before making such claims about myself.

As for dawah, I am not going to hide some parts of Islam just so as the dawah isnt harmed which seems to be what you are suggesting. It seems some Muslims are ashamed of Islam and Islamic history.

I think one of the noticable things on these threads is that I present evidence after evidence after evidence. Nothing which I say is based on my own reasoning, yet all I get in reply is personal opinion. I am sure I am much less educated on these issues than many of the other posters here, however the fact that I can show so much evidence is because it is there. The fact that those who oppose me cant produce evidence and have to resort to their own opinion and make their own tafseer of Quran is because the evidence is not there.

If other Muslims dont like what I say then oppose it with proofs, dont attack me.

 

[AbuKhalid]

About this! I've been meaning to ask... the Qur'an says "if much intoxicates, even a little is haram", which I think makes it quite obvious.
What about those who use khat, for example (as they do in Somalia)? Does this make them kufr? And, is it permissible to drink non-alcoholic wine or non-alcoholic beer, for example?

This may be a bit hijack-thread-y though!

I dont really know what khat is, though I have heard of it. If it is an intoxicant or hallucinogen then its totally haram. The only exception would be if it was necessary for some reason and there was no halal alternative.

As for non alocholic drinks then I believe they are allowed. They are widely drunk here, though that doesnt mean much. But I cannot really see a reason why they would be haram as its the alcohol, not the beer which is haram.

 

[Breathe]

I dont really know what khat is, though I have heard of it. If it is an intoxicant or hallucinogen then its totally haram. The only exception would be if it was necessary for some reason and there was no halal alternative.

Khat contains the alkaloid called cathinone, an amphetamine-like stimulant which is said to cause excitement, loss of appetite and euphoria. In 1980 the World Health Organization classified khat as a drug of abuse that can produce mild to moderate psychological dependence. The plant has been targeted by anti-drug organizations like the DEA.[1] It is a controlled/illegal substance in many countries.

..snip...

It is estimated that several million people are frequent users of khat. Many of the users originate from countries between Sudan and Madagascar and in the southwestern part of the Arabian Peninsula, especially Yemen. In Yemen, 80% of the males and 45% of the females were found to be khat users who had chewed daily for long periods of their life. The traditional form of khat chewing in Yemen involves only male users; khat chewing by females is less formal and less frequent.

...snip...

In Somalia, 61% of the population reported that they do use khat, 18% report habitual use, and 21% are occasional users.[citation needed]

What would you make of this?
By the way; if someone continues to use something that is haram, can they ever become considered as a kufr or anything - or will they be fajir, fasiq or munafiq?

 

[Sahar]

As for dawah, I am not going to hide some parts of Islam just so as the dawah isnt harmed which seems to be what you are suggesting. It seems some Muslims are ashamed of Islam and Islamic history.

I have seen different Muslims here, and most of the Muslims are NOT ashamed of their religion or their history. I have seen them very frank with non-Muslims. I never said to hide any parts of the religion.
What you preach (regarding this topic) is extermist and terrorizing ideologies that I am fed up with. Any person (whether Muslim or non-Muslim) can cite verses of the Qur'an and ahadeeth to make them suit their own agenda.

I myself started a thread about this topic in the Islam DIR and it was by a prominent scholar: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/81338-jihad-renegotiated.html, we are not talking from our minds or our vain desires. What we present here is what many knowledgeable Muslim scholars say.

So don't think that Shari'a is on your side only.

 

[AbuKhalid]

I have seen different Muslims here, and most of the Muslims are NOT ashamed of their religion or their history. I have seen them very frank with non-Muslims. I never said to hide any parts of the religion.
What you preach (regarding this topic) is extermist and terrorizing ideologies that I am fed up with. Any person (whether Muslim or non-Muslim) can cite verses of the Qur'an and ahadeeth to make them suit their own agenda.

Yes any person can take the Quran and hadith to suit their agenda. I however have used tafseer and statements of the scholars to support what I have said and I also have addressed the other verses given by other posters which they claim contradicts what I say. The same has not occurred from the other side sadly in that there is no supporting evidence and the ayats I give dont seem to be addressed or expalined.

There is nothing extreme about what I say at all. Islam is not extreme and what I say is Islam as I have shown and given evidences for.

As for terrorising well again I dont see how? But before you start saying people are terrorising, remember:

Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of God and your enemies.
8:60

So obviously sometimes terrorising is necessary.

I myself started a thread about this topic in the Islam DIR and it was by a prominent scholar, we are not talking from our minds or our vain desires. What we present here is what many knowledgeable Muslim scholars say.

So don't think that Shari'a is on your side only.

But then why not present these evidences. Thats one thread (and a good one) but how many times in how many threads have I asked for evidences only to get opinion in reply?

I do believe Sharia is on my side or else I wouldnt believe what I say. However I do stand open to correction and will examine new evidence if and when I see it and adjust my opinion accordingly. We all make mistakes.

 

[AbuKhalid]

What would you make of this?
By the way; if someone continues to use something that is haram, can they ever become considered as a kufr or anything - or will they be fajir, fasiq or munafiq?

It would be haram. They wouldnt be kufr or anything like that, just a Muslim who sins.

 

[AbuKhalid]

At least there should be moderation of the amount while discussing these topics but apparently moderation is not in his dictionary. .

Just to add, here is a list of all the topics I have ever started on this forum:

Muslims ONLY: Types of Kufr
Description of the Prophet (SAW)
Pearls and Gems
Signs of Ar Rahman in the Afghan Jihad
Spinning Dervishes
Where should the hands be placed after ruku?
Do you follow a Madhhab?
Beautiful recitation of Quran
The Woman: A parable
The Existence of Allah
Islamic Quiz
Salahudeen
Zakat?
New revelation?
What Can You Do In Ten Minutes?
Ten Lessons Ibn al-Mubarak Taught Us
Islam = Qur'an + Sunnah
Inspiring Muslims throughout history
A slap from a learned scholar answers a young man...
Adultery of the Eyes
The story of the boy and the king

Hopefully that proves your claim about me is wrong.


http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/

 

[Sahar]

I chose the thread approach for two reasons; I don't have the time (unlike you) and I don't like debating. Even with the so-called Qur'anic Muslims, I never debated with them, I just say what I have in my mind and leave. And I avoid debating with new Muslims and opposing what they say the way I did with you and I apologize for this.
But God, you can't imagine how what you say is seriously alarming and dangerous. That's why I couldn't hold myself.

My reply to you is thread that I started and I am willing to post more at it, isA.

Maybe Maro or other Muslims can continue the debates with you.

 

[AbuKhalid]

I chose the thread approach for two reasons; I don't have the time (unlike you) and I don't like debating. Even with the so-called Qur'anic Muslims, I never debated with them, I just say what I have in my mind and leave. And I avoid debating with new Muslims and opposing what they say the way I did with you and I apologize for this.
But God, you can't imagine how what you say is seriously alarming and dangerous. That's why I couldn't hold myself.

My reply to you is thread that I started and I am willing to post more at it, isA.

Maybe Maro or other Muslims can continue the debates with you.

I will reply to your thread when I get time but I fear we will just get into the same circle again.

 

[.lava]

No, its her opinion of the Quran. You, her nor me have not the ability to do tafseer despite what we may think. And the Sharia is written in more than the Quran.

Is what I said not in the Quran and do you reject Ibn Kathirs Tafseer, which is the most widely accepted Tafseer of the Quran?

i do not know who Ibn Kathirs. i do not understand how his tafseer is the most widely accepted.

Muslims should not talk like this about the scholars.

why? i do not even know them. i am also taught and still learning Islam (both sunnah and Qur'an) and what you've learned and what i've learned does not match. i would follow what brings peace, love and happiness to both Muslims and non-Muslims. therefor i can not agree with you or people who taught you. i honestly find it very disturbing to hear you warn me when i disagree with you.

logicly, morally and emotionally i can't seem to find anything wrong in what i've said. you can not put faith in someone else's heart by force.


.

 

[AbuKhalid]

i do not know who Ibn Kathirs. i do not understand how his tafseer is the most widely accepted.

Then you must agree you cant make a judgement on the issue, yet you still do. This is speaking without knowledge which is forbidden in Islam.

why? i do not even know them. i am also taught and still learning Islam (both sunnah and Qur'an) and what you've learned and what i've learned does not match. i would follow what brings peace, love and happiness to both Muslims and non-Muslims. therefor i can not agree with you or people who taught you. i honestly find it very disturbing to hear you warn me when i disagree with you.

I am not warning you. I am advising you as it is not the way of Muslims to speak of the scholars in such a way, especially if you don't even know who they are. These scholars I have been quoting are some of the greatest scholars there have been.

You should follow what is in the Quran and Sunnah, no matter what it brings. You don't have to agree with me and in many cases disagreement is good. But as Muslims we must use the correct methodology to do so. This doesn't include just dismissing what we believe opposes Islam, because if this is coming from scholars then it deserves us to at least examine it. We have to understand that sometimes we wont understand the issues and sometimes they are not straight forward as they seem.

logicly, morally and emotionally i can't seem to find anything wrong in what i've said. you can not put faith in someone else's heart by force.

Quite obviously you are ignoring everything I have said on this thread as I have never once, ever said that you can put faith in a persons heart by force.

If I have done so then direct me to where I have said this. If you do so then I will withdraw my comment and apologise.

 

[.lava]

Then you must agree you cant make a judgement on the issue, yet you still do. This is speaking without knowledge which is forbidden in Islam.

i've already said it for a few times that i do not come with personal ideas on verses or hadiths.

I am not warning you. I am advising you as it is not the way of Muslims to speak of the scholars in such a way, especially if you don't even know who they are. These scholars I have been quoting are some of the greatest scholars there have been.

You should follow what is in the Quran and Sunnah, no matter what it brings. You don't have to agree with me and in many cases disagreement is good. But as Muslims we must use the correct methodology to do so. This doesn't include just dismissing what we believe opposes Islam, because if this is coming from scholars then it deserves us to at least examine it. We have to understand that sometimes we wont understand the issues and sometimes they are not straight forward as they seem.

but that is not the case here, AbuKhalid. i am willing to follow footsteps of Mohammad (PBUH) hopefully. if scholars go against it, then i would not join them.

Quite obviously you are ignoring everything I have said on this thread as I have never once, ever said that you can put faith in a persons heart by force.

If I have done so then direct me to where I have said this. If you do so then I will withdraw my comment and apologise.

OK maybe i was not clear enough. i was referring to your idea of forcing Sharia on people. even Mohammad (PBUH) did not do it.

.

 

[Fatihah]

As salaamu alaikum AbuKhalid,

I'm having a very difficult time trying to understand your points on the thread and I don't want to put words in your mouth so, in an effort for better clarification, I would like to ask you a few questions to grasp your understanding. My first question would be, do you believe that muslims are to start a war with a nation that doesn't apply the teachings of islam even when the nation is peaceful and just to both muslims and non-muslims?