Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
He already has.
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Mormon Scriptures
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sniper762
Well-Known Member
i hav e nothing against you, but i do dislike the way in which you respond to an individual for simply trying to learn about lds subjects, one which i presented in my op
(note: Caps are just to differenciate my words from yours)
I understand that you see yourself as “doing research”. My sister learned as a toddler through research that one had to add enough water to mud pies, else they simply crumbled.
Authentic research regarding profound principles that will give us essential knowledge and authentic and deep wisdom is a good thing, especially when so many individuals will spend their lives in trivial and mundane pursuits and learn very little of import if their hearts are not really seeking after knowledge that is important.
If you truly feel in your heart that your current "research" on WHERE Book of Mormon events took place is going to reveal "profound principles" that will give you "essential knowledge" and will ultimately provide you with "authentic and deep wisdom" then I understand why you will not let go of your current millwheel. If, after years of research, you ultimately discover what other scholars have failed to discover, and if it turns out to be important somehow, let us know.
Good luck in your “research” and in discovering the point sniper762.
Clear
vifufutt
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POST ONE OF HOWEVER MANY
THESE are good questions Sniper762.
Specific research into HOW guidance and communication with God takes place has more potential to give you religious insight, understanding and wisdom than WHERE such communication or other events occurred in the past. IF we can remain focused on truly profound salvational principles, then I think our research will bring us insight and wisdom and knowledge. I will tell you how I received the answers I was looking for. (Unless this post is to resemble a lengthy book, of necessity, a great deal will be left out that I can add as we progress if needed)
2) I HAD MANY INITIAL MISCONCEPTIONS
Like you, I had many misconceptions regarding the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, that I was both unaware of and was reluctant to let go of. Until I learned to let go of my misconceptions, I could not replace them with more correct data that was certainly available. This is true whether one is learning chemistry or physical science, or religious principles.
3) MY INITIAL INTRODUCTION TO THE LDS
Though I grew up having believed in God and having attended a few churches , I was not knowledgeable about nor particularly interested in the LDS church until a Lutheran scholar-friend revealed they had been studying the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS as a restoration of principles of salvation of ancient Christianity and that they had experienced a revelation and were going to be baptized into the LDS church.
Had I not had such tremendous respect for the integrity and intellectual capability of this person, the claim to and description of specific revelation would not have generated such intense interest for me. This person described an awake revelation that was both visual and in their heart and mind. Had it been almost anyone else, I might have concluded “delusion” or “drugs”. However, the quality of this persons intellect and integrity; and the power of their experience piqued my interest in authentic and specific communication with God and in the early principles of salvation.
This scholar told me that they felt the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints represented the restoration of ancient Gospel Principles of Salvation and showed me this promise in the Book of Mormon as follows :
4) THE CHALLENGE REGARDING THE RESTORATION OF PRINCIPLES OF SALVATION
The thought occurred to me that I did not believe THIS person was deluded or hallucinating and secondly, IF the promise was true, that God would reveal an honest search with revelation and confirmation, then I also could bring myself to qualify for an answer from God, either confirming or denying that original principles of salvation had been restored to the Earth.
I analyzed the promise and felt that I could 1) remember and consider the great mercies of God throughout the ages. I felt that I could 2) read these things and could generate a “sincere heart”, (that is, I felt I could overcome any prejudice and give up any current belief as trade for the knowledge of true salvational principles). I felt that I could overcome my desire to claim that I already knew “the truth” and could then 3) Ask with authentic and “real intent” what WAS true if what I presently had was not completely true. I felt that I could 4) exercise faith in Jesus Christ.
I felt that I did all of these things, then I believed that I could claim access to such a promise, either to the confirming of the restoration of salvational principles or to the denial that salvational principles were restored. I did not need to trust the LDS members, I did not need to trust the missionaries, I simply needed to have fulfill the promise and trust God.
I’m writing this at work between appointments, so I’ll have to add a more over the next few hours in installments. Please allow me to at least post a couple more installments and then feel free to discuss what I am going to claim.
Clear
viactzoo
POST TWO FOLLOWS
1) THE CHANGE IN QUALITY OF YOUR QUESTIONS
THESE are good questions Sniper762.
Specific research into HOW guidance and communication with God takes place has more potential to give you religious insight, understanding and wisdom than WHERE such communication or other events occurred in the past. IF we can remain focused on truly profound salvational principles, then I think our research will bring us insight and wisdom and knowledge. I will tell you how I received the answers I was looking for. (Unless this post is to resemble a lengthy book, of necessity, a great deal will be left out that I can add as we progress if needed)
2) I HAD MANY INITIAL MISCONCEPTIONS
Like you, I had many misconceptions regarding the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, that I was both unaware of and was reluctant to let go of. Until I learned to let go of my misconceptions, I could not replace them with more correct data that was certainly available. This is true whether one is learning chemistry or physical science, or religious principles.
3) MY INITIAL INTRODUCTION TO THE LDS
Though I grew up having believed in God and having attended a few churches , I was not knowledgeable about nor particularly interested in the LDS church until a Lutheran scholar-friend revealed they had been studying the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS as a restoration of principles of salvation of ancient Christianity and that they had experienced a revelation and were going to be baptized into the LDS church.
Had I not had such tremendous respect for the integrity and intellectual capability of this person, the claim to and description of specific revelation would not have generated such intense interest for me. This person described an awake revelation that was both visual and in their heart and mind. Had it been almost anyone else, I might have concluded “delusion” or “drugs”. However, the quality of this persons intellect and integrity; and the power of their experience piqued my interest in authentic and specific communication with God and in the early principles of salvation.
This scholar told me that they felt the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints represented the restoration of ancient Gospel Principles of Salvation and showed me this promise in the Book of Mormon as follows :
This was the first time I’d seen a Book of Mormon.
4) THE CHALLENGE REGARDING THE RESTORATION OF PRINCIPLES OF SALVATION
The thought occurred to me that I did not believe THIS person was deluded or hallucinating and secondly, IF the promise was true, that God would reveal an honest search with revelation and confirmation, then I also could bring myself to qualify for an answer from God, either confirming or denying that original principles of salvation had been restored to the Earth.
I analyzed the promise and felt that I could 1) remember and consider the great mercies of God throughout the ages. I felt that I could 2) read these things and could generate a “sincere heart”, (that is, I felt I could overcome any prejudice and give up any current belief as trade for the knowledge of true salvational principles). I felt that I could overcome my desire to claim that I already knew “the truth” and could then 3) Ask with authentic and “real intent” what WAS true if what I presently had was not completely true. I felt that I could 4) exercise faith in Jesus Christ.
I felt that I did all of these things, then I believed that I could claim access to such a promise, either to the confirming of the restoration of salvational principles or to the denial that salvational principles were restored. I did not need to trust the LDS members, I did not need to trust the missionaries, I simply needed to have fulfill the promise and trust God.
I’m writing this at work between appointments, so I’ll have to add a more over the next few hours in installments. Please allow me to at least post a couple more installments and then feel free to discuss what I am going to claim.
Clear
viactzoo
POST TWO FOLLOWS
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sniper762
Well-Known Member
i can relate to your concepts of the church "as a whole" but i was referring to "particular" scriptures, incidents or events.
to narrow it down; when you read the account of lehi and the brother of jared's journy, did you not picture in your mind, their route?
when i read books like "moby dick", i was drawn into the author's description of the event as though i was there with him. i was drawn into the same description of these early mormon characters also. this is a sign of a good writer. the difference is that "moby dick" is fictional, the bom is not, therefore the setting was more vivid and drew me in stronger.
when i read about china, i like to get out a map and familiarize myself with just where china is.
am i wrong for wanting to do the same when reading the bom?
did you not do the same or did you just read the words without taking the journey (of which you could identify with)?
in my attempt to identify with this journey (by googlinng and learning of other learned mormon
scholars like, byu's john sorenson), i arrived at my op question.
i dont mean to try and oppose your nor katzpur's beliefs and am merely trying to understand what i read. this forum is just one of many sources for which i try to gain that understanding.
btw, i speak to many of my lds friends, some even high priests, who do not understand this journey, some even telling me that the journey took place across the atlantic, which is not how i see it portrayed in the bom.
to narrow it down; when you read the account of lehi and the brother of jared's journy, did you not picture in your mind, their route?
when i read books like "moby dick", i was drawn into the author's description of the event as though i was there with him. i was drawn into the same description of these early mormon characters also. this is a sign of a good writer. the difference is that "moby dick" is fictional, the bom is not, therefore the setting was more vivid and drew me in stronger.
when i read about china, i like to get out a map and familiarize myself with just where china is.
am i wrong for wanting to do the same when reading the bom?
did you not do the same or did you just read the words without taking the journey (of which you could identify with)?
in my attempt to identify with this journey (by googlinng and learning of other learned mormon
scholars like, byu's john sorenson), i arrived at my op question.
i dont mean to try and oppose your nor katzpur's beliefs and am merely trying to understand what i read. this forum is just one of many sources for which i try to gain that understanding.
btw, i speak to many of my lds friends, some even high priests, who do not understand this journey, some even telling me that the journey took place across the atlantic, which is not how i see it portrayed in the bom.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Sniper, if I have misjudged you, I sincerely apologize. I have to tell you, though, that having participated on forums of this sort for some ten years now, I have developed a pretty accurate sense of who is sincerely looking for answers and who is just looking for an argument. Your initial question concerning the location at which the events described in the Book of Mormon took place did (and still does) strike me as odd, particularly since you didn't seem to want to let go of it even after several of us explained to you that it was a question that has no definitive answer. It seemed as if your focus was not on what I would expect from someone who was genuinely interested in learning about the Church.
My response reflected my suspicions and you picked up on that. You responded by implying that I don't know my religion. Not a good button to push. Regardless of what your first impression of me might have been, I can assure you that many, many individuals over the years have found me to be knowledgable, patient and courteous in answering their questions. I'm sorry you don't agree with them, but I can assure you that if I sense at any time a change in your tone, you'll see a change in mine.
sniper762
Well-Known Member
first of all, your sense deceives you as of my intent.
it doesn't take a rocket scientist to derive from reading the bom and furher investigation as to the question that i presented. i have heard from many including the church, the same response that you have given. i still search for something more definitive than "we dont really know".
as i told clear, it was byu's john sorenson's words that created my question of which i thought that maybe a seasoned lds member, like yourself could non-biasly discuss.
please forgive me for seeming to offend your belief or insulting your intelligence.
it doesn't take a rocket scientist to derive from reading the bom and furher investigation as to the question that i presented. i have heard from many including the church, the same response that you have given. i still search for something more definitive than "we dont really know".
as i told clear, it was byu's john sorenson's words that created my question of which i thought that maybe a seasoned lds member, like yourself could non-biasly discuss.
please forgive me for seeming to offend your belief or insulting your intelligence.
POST TWO
5) THE MOST BASIC PRINCIPLE
I’ve considered how to approach the principle of revelations given to men, and how revelations then generally seem to come to one who seeks them incrementally and specifically; upon the subject one needs, and to the extent that one is able to receive them. For me, the first and most basic question and principle of consideration was existence and the nature of existence. I was driving long distances at the time I started analyzing the principles I was reading in the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price (the two books I had). Upon first reading these books specifically for principles of salvation, while driving through downtown Alpine Texas, I saw two LDS missionaries. I stopped and asked for a lesson to do with “the basics” of Salvation. I considered what they had said and upon my return trip I was traveling through the marfa plains westward.
6) SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES UNDERLYING AND UNDERGIRDING DOCTRINAL BELIEFS
(I feel ambivalent describing experiences that have become sacred to me, but I also realize that by withholding such descriptions, you will not have a true feel for the reasons behind the depth of commitment and confidence the LDS have in what they believe.)
While driving and looking out over the incredibly flat, Marfa plain, I was praying about principles of salvation and I had a waking vision of the world as a globe, upon which pre-existing spirits of mankind were placed into both bodies and mortality in order order to learn and experience and gain specific moral knowledge. I could see the Sun as a globe and, in a word, “understood” the temporal nature of these things. It was as though the understanding was poured into me and was one of the most singular experiences I’d ever had up to that point in my life. I returned home and described this experience to my brother and he was the one who pointed out the revelatory nature of it. It simply felt so natural that I had overlooked the obvious. The value of such an experience is that it explains and contextually clarifies the nature of all other salvational principles and revelations that follow throughout out lives.
The knowledge of the nature of the spirits existence and it’s characteristics and associations is one of “the most basic principles” upon which all other salvational principles can be placed in their proper context. Without this principle, all other salvational principles become skewed and distorted to the extent that they are forced in line with other theories. Though I have had some introduction to the earliest Judao-Christian texts and their descriptions of the pre-existence of man’s spirit, I had never been taught the principle of pre-existence in any other church, this knowledge was simply given as a gift and it simply confirmed this most basic principle of salvation taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint.
I’ve had and considerede same questions that the Philosophers and theists have plagued multiple versions of Christianity with for 1700 years.
For example, the philosophers, theists, agnostics and athiests have complained about the inherent unfairness of christianities that claim one MUST accept Jesus while in this life, or suffer hell-fire (despite some of them not HAVING this opportunity to accept Jesus). Many members of my own prior congregation felt the inherent unfairness of this (as did Augustine), especially for children or those who had no chance to hear about Jesus before dying. Neither my prior christianity, nor almost all others had any soothing answer for this inherent unfairness. It was the LDS restoration of a principle of salvation that finally made fair what 1700 years of Catholic and Protestant theory could not. The restoration of the knowledge of the nature of the spirit-world between death and resurrection as a time for spirits to learn of Jesus; where knowledge continues to accumulate and repentance is still to be had was not merely illuminating to me, but it cleared 1700 years of catholic-protestant versus philosopher complaints away. Importantly, as I study further into the early Judao-Christian texts, I find that this doctrine was THE early doctrine. Often, the salvational principles that one is taught spiritually, one is able to re-learn intellectually (a multi-post example will follow).
The true and authentic journey for spiritual truth, is, if one attempts to remain faithful, a decisional door that, once one walks through, takes them in unexpected and wonderful directions. It’s not merely a matter of the LDS having a single revelation in their lives that confirms a single and simple principle, but multiple revelations under varying conditions come to them throughout their lives.
For example : After my baptism, I happened to meet an old friend “Ray”, from school. Ray had also just been baptized. After we expressed surprise and joy we discussed the experiences we both were having. Not long thereafter Ray was killed. And despite having learned the doctrine of God’s fairness, I was saddened that Ray had not yet experienced so much that I was, presumably, going to be able to experience. It did not seem fair. Time went by and I was having wonderful experiences but the fairness of Ray’s death still caused me some melancholic moments. Then one night I had what was, for me, much more than a dream. It was a night-vision. Ray came to me and took me where he was; in the world of spirits. He explained that he was teaching the gospel to those who had not had adequate opportunity to hear it. He explained many other things and showed me things that gave me greater insight and knowledge. Finally, he taught me that everything WAS fair. There was no opportunity of importance to salvation, that I would have that he would not be given. Again, the early Judao-Christian texts describe precisely what I saw and was told.
POST THREE FOLLOWS
5) THE MOST BASIC PRINCIPLE
I’ve considered how to approach the principle of revelations given to men, and how revelations then generally seem to come to one who seeks them incrementally and specifically; upon the subject one needs, and to the extent that one is able to receive them. For me, the first and most basic question and principle of consideration was existence and the nature of existence. I was driving long distances at the time I started analyzing the principles I was reading in the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price (the two books I had). Upon first reading these books specifically for principles of salvation, while driving through downtown Alpine Texas, I saw two LDS missionaries. I stopped and asked for a lesson to do with “the basics” of Salvation. I considered what they had said and upon my return trip I was traveling through the marfa plains westward.
6) SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES UNDERLYING AND UNDERGIRDING DOCTRINAL BELIEFS
(I feel ambivalent describing experiences that have become sacred to me, but I also realize that by withholding such descriptions, you will not have a true feel for the reasons behind the depth of commitment and confidence the LDS have in what they believe.)
While driving and looking out over the incredibly flat, Marfa plain, I was praying about principles of salvation and I had a waking vision of the world as a globe, upon which pre-existing spirits of mankind were placed into both bodies and mortality in order order to learn and experience and gain specific moral knowledge. I could see the Sun as a globe and, in a word, “understood” the temporal nature of these things. It was as though the understanding was poured into me and was one of the most singular experiences I’d ever had up to that point in my life. I returned home and described this experience to my brother and he was the one who pointed out the revelatory nature of it. It simply felt so natural that I had overlooked the obvious. The value of such an experience is that it explains and contextually clarifies the nature of all other salvational principles and revelations that follow throughout out lives.
The knowledge of the nature of the spirits existence and it’s characteristics and associations is one of “the most basic principles” upon which all other salvational principles can be placed in their proper context. Without this principle, all other salvational principles become skewed and distorted to the extent that they are forced in line with other theories. Though I have had some introduction to the earliest Judao-Christian texts and their descriptions of the pre-existence of man’s spirit, I had never been taught the principle of pre-existence in any other church, this knowledge was simply given as a gift and it simply confirmed this most basic principle of salvation taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint.
I’ve had and considerede same questions that the Philosophers and theists have plagued multiple versions of Christianity with for 1700 years.
For example, the philosophers, theists, agnostics and athiests have complained about the inherent unfairness of christianities that claim one MUST accept Jesus while in this life, or suffer hell-fire (despite some of them not HAVING this opportunity to accept Jesus). Many members of my own prior congregation felt the inherent unfairness of this (as did Augustine), especially for children or those who had no chance to hear about Jesus before dying. Neither my prior christianity, nor almost all others had any soothing answer for this inherent unfairness. It was the LDS restoration of a principle of salvation that finally made fair what 1700 years of Catholic and Protestant theory could not. The restoration of the knowledge of the nature of the spirit-world between death and resurrection as a time for spirits to learn of Jesus; where knowledge continues to accumulate and repentance is still to be had was not merely illuminating to me, but it cleared 1700 years of catholic-protestant versus philosopher complaints away. Importantly, as I study further into the early Judao-Christian texts, I find that this doctrine was THE early doctrine. Often, the salvational principles that one is taught spiritually, one is able to re-learn intellectually (a multi-post example will follow).
The true and authentic journey for spiritual truth, is, if one attempts to remain faithful, a decisional door that, once one walks through, takes them in unexpected and wonderful directions. It’s not merely a matter of the LDS having a single revelation in their lives that confirms a single and simple principle, but multiple revelations under varying conditions come to them throughout their lives.
For example : After my baptism, I happened to meet an old friend “Ray”, from school. Ray had also just been baptized. After we expressed surprise and joy we discussed the experiences we both were having. Not long thereafter Ray was killed. And despite having learned the doctrine of God’s fairness, I was saddened that Ray had not yet experienced so much that I was, presumably, going to be able to experience. It did not seem fair. Time went by and I was having wonderful experiences but the fairness of Ray’s death still caused me some melancholic moments. Then one night I had what was, for me, much more than a dream. It was a night-vision. Ray came to me and took me where he was; in the world of spirits. He explained that he was teaching the gospel to those who had not had adequate opportunity to hear it. He explained many other things and showed me things that gave me greater insight and knowledge. Finally, he taught me that everything WAS fair. There was no opportunity of importance to salvation, that I would have that he would not be given. Again, the early Judao-Christian texts describe precisely what I saw and was told.
POST THREE FOLLOWS
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POST THREE
7) INTELLECTUAL CONFIRMATION OF SPIRITUAL CONFIRMATION
If we consider just these two doctrines that I learned as much through spiritual revelation as through reading, the intellectual process and experience confirms. It is as though God set out the perfect supplies at needed spots along this journey of discovery, which also serves as evidence, that he knew we would be traveling along this particular path.
THE ANCIENT DOCTRINE OF PRE-EXISTENCE AS A SALVATIONAL TRUTH
Many, many, many of the earliest Judao-Christian sacred Texts, relate the expansive doctrine of the pre-mortal realm and the nature of spirits there and God’s purposes for creation. The theme of pre-creation and what happened there is written into the early sacred texts, their hymns contain the doctrine; virtually ALL of the ascension literature contains the doctrine, the war in heaven texts certainly contain the doctrine; the earliest liturgies contain the doctrine; the midrashic texts contain the doctrine, the Jewish Haggadah contains the doctrine, the Zohar contains it; the testament literature is full of it. One simply cannot READ the earliest sacred Judao-Christian texts without reference to this early Christian doctrine. This vast early literature is part of the context for early christians and illuminates their understanding of biblical texts that reference this pre-creation time period and what happened there.
For examples :
Enoch, in his vision of pre-creation heaven, relates :
Under this early context, the question God asked Job was NOT rhetorical, but it was a reminder :
POST FOUR FOLLOWS
7) INTELLECTUAL CONFIRMATION OF SPIRITUAL CONFIRMATION
If we consider just these two doctrines that I learned as much through spiritual revelation as through reading, the intellectual process and experience confirms. It is as though God set out the perfect supplies at needed spots along this journey of discovery, which also serves as evidence, that he knew we would be traveling along this particular path.
THE ANCIENT DOCTRINE OF PRE-EXISTENCE AS A SALVATIONAL TRUTH
Many, many, many of the earliest Judao-Christian sacred Texts, relate the expansive doctrine of the pre-mortal realm and the nature of spirits there and God’s purposes for creation. The theme of pre-creation and what happened there is written into the early sacred texts, their hymns contain the doctrine; virtually ALL of the ascension literature contains the doctrine, the war in heaven texts certainly contain the doctrine; the earliest liturgies contain the doctrine; the midrashic texts contain the doctrine, the Jewish Haggadah contains the doctrine, the Zohar contains it; the testament literature is full of it. One simply cannot READ the earliest sacred Judao-Christian texts without reference to this early Christian doctrine. This vast early literature is part of the context for early christians and illuminates their understanding of biblical texts that reference this pre-creation time period and what happened there.
For examples :
Enoch, in his vision of pre-creation heaven, relates :
The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to :
In his vision the angel bids Enoch, “Come and I will show you the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created.” After seeing various souls, a midrashic explanation is given us by Enoch regarding these many souls
The vast ascension literature, describes the pre-creation realm of spirits. Abraham, in his ascension Vision describes the unnumbered spirits he sees, many of whom are waiting to come into mortality. The angel says to Abraham :
The doctrine of pre-mortal existence of the spirits within men permeates the Old Testament biblical text as well. A knowledge of this simple principle explains and underlying so many of the quotes in many other texts as well. In the Old testament it was said : “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (ecclesiates 12:7). This principle is mirrored in multiple other early Judao Christian texts as well : When God the Father commands the son to “Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.” The only begotten Son said to Sedrach, “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5). When the Son finally DOES take the Soul of the Mortal Sedrach, he simply takes it back to God “where it came from”. It is simply a rephrase of Ecclesiates 12:7. And this principle is repeated in many different texts.“Look now beneath your feet at the firmament and understand the creation that was depicted of old (i.e. planned). Among other things Abraham says “I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal.”... He asks : “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?” 2 And he said to me, “This is my will with regard to what is in the council and it became good before my face (i.e. according to his plan).. “These who are on the left side are a multitude of tribes who existed previously...and through you. some (who have been) prepared for being put in order (slav” restoration”, others for revenge and perdition at the end of the age....those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with azazel; these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you and to be called my people The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5 and 23:1-3;
The Early Christian usage of Ecclesiates 12:7 was used in this same way by the Apostle Peter as he explained to Clement that "This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." (Recognitions)
Under this early context, the question God asked Job was NOT rhetorical, but it was a reminder :
Under the early context, Job KNEW the answer when God asked where Job was when God laid the foundations of the earth “and all the sons of God shouted for joy”.
POST FOUR FOLLOWS
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POST FOUR
The texts are explicit that the spirits were taught regarding God’s plan to send the spirits of men to earth. They knew they would undergo a fall of Adam and Of the pre-mortal Redeemer. Seth relates this time period when these sons of God shouted for Joy. The redeemer said regarding this time period before creation in a assembly of spirits :
Many early Judao-Christian texts are quite explicit in explaining the doctrines underlying the New Testament Theology on this subject. For example : Speaking of the souls of men and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth, the Haggadah relates :
POST FIVE FOLLOWS
The texts are explicit that the spirits were taught regarding God’s plan to send the spirits of men to earth. They knew they would undergo a fall of Adam and Of the pre-mortal Redeemer. Seth relates this time period when these sons of God shouted for Joy. The redeemer said regarding this time period before creation in a assembly of spirits :
In explaining the relationship of this life to the pre-mortal realm of spirits, the messiah explained
The early doctrine of Pre-mortal existence of the spirits of men took the arbitrariness out of God have created spirits unequally. IN this model, the spirits are partly responsible for their nature upon entering this life. Instead of arbitrarily creating spirits with defects (which spirits may be punished for later), in this early christian context, the Lord creates the body in relationship to certain characteristics the spirit has already obtained (or did not obtain) in it’s heavenly abode over vast periods of time. For example from the testament literature :
In the context of the spirit of man existing long before other spirits, Jewish Haggadah relates that
This it the very same teaching the Apostle Peter taught Clement in the Clementine Recognitions, (remember, Clement was ALSO in the earlier New Testament Canon), the apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and man’s place within this plan :
This principle (that man’s spirit pre-exists the creation) was one of the FIRST things the Apostle Peter teaches Clement. I believe there is a reason for this. Perhaps, for such theists, the key to understanding what God is doing with mankind is contained inside of the concept that we are eternally spiritual.
Many early Judao-Christian texts are quite explicit in explaining the doctrines underlying the New Testament Theology on this subject. For example : Speaking of the souls of men and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth, the Haggadah relates :
Occasionally the spirit is reluctant to leave the untainted pre-mortal heaven for an earth where she knows her existence will be more difficult as she gains her moral education by coming to earth. In such accounts, God is NOT angry but the text says “ God consoles her. The text relates God telling the soul that
The entire chapter regarding the soul of man discussed in detail what happens with spirits before they enter the body and it relates their forgetting of their prior preparation and existence with God. (I might mention that souls anciently are all described in the female gender - like ships are - in modern parlance)
POST FIVE FOLLOWS
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POST FIVE
Such principles in the Haggadic text (which is related to the talmudic history) is mirrored in several other texts. For example, the Zohar confirms the doctrine as it relates essentially the same description. :
KATZPUR -
I do not think you need to feel like back-peddaling with Sniper762. I believe you were correct in your prior assessment (however uncomfortable it was to say it). I believe he is still turning his millstone of lehi's route and was simply pressured to ask about more important issues (judging by his post #46 which returns to the issue of speculations regarding Lehi's route). If he is unwilling to let go of the petty and insignificant data, he will never be able to pay attention to the profound and important data. What you are trying to teach him WAS and still IS more important than his current insistent questioning which, has speculation and endless debate written all over it.
What will happen in our lives if we habitually abandon the profound in order to consider the petty?
If Sniper762 will not understand that there are salvational principles (such as the nature of existence, a principle upon which all other authentic theology rests...) staring him in the face that are more important than speculating about ancient routes of travel, then I do NOT think he is ready to have discussions regarding profound, salvational principles.
Sniper762 - you asked if I had questions regarding the principles that I was reading and you asked how my questions were answered.
The point is that I spent my time asking the IMPORTANT QUESTIONS and trying to learn about the basic but profoundly important questions relating to principles of SALVATION and obedience to God and faith in his promises rather than becoming bogged down in speculations of lehi's route. When I did what God said to do, and tried my best to fulfill the conditions of God's promise in Book of Mormon, Moroni 10:6 that he would confirm the truth of what I was reading, God gave me answers by revelation and by diligent study.
I also pointed out to you that the very doctrines I was being taught by the LDS and by reading the Pearl of Great Price WERE the same doctrines as the ancient sacred Judao-Christian texts taught (but which have been abandoned by the majority of Modern Christians).
I also pointed out that profoundly important questions that philosophers and religionists have debated and argued about for the past 1700 years have been neatly answered simply by a restoration to the earliest doctrines. To discover and to understand such principles of salvation are much more important than spending time trying to speculate on the route of travel of a character in the book of Mormon (or in the Bible or any other book).
I think I'll stop here unless I feel there is an authentic reason to continue -
clear
vinedrgh
Such principles in the Haggadic text (which is related to the talmudic history) is mirrored in several other texts. For example, the Zohar confirms the doctrine as it relates essentially the same description. :
“” The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul [/quote]In very symbolic language, the Zohar relates the creation of the souls in heaven to the point that they become formed and cognizant and take on characteristics they will keep with them when they are placed into bodies at birth, even to the point of having gender. Speaking of which fully developed souls it says :
The point is, that despite the criticisms leveled against the LDS for their "introduction" of this specific doctrine, it IS a RESTORATION of the ancient doctrine that was believed and taught in early Judao-Christian sacred texts. Another profound principle is that I have experienced this same principle over and over. Each "new" salvational doctrine I was exposed to by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints whether by revelation or by Sunday School; it is (so far) confirmed abundantly by early Judao-Christian Texts to BE THE EARLY SALVATIONAL DOCTRINES.
KATZPUR -
I do not think you need to feel like back-peddaling with Sniper762. I believe you were correct in your prior assessment (however uncomfortable it was to say it). I believe he is still turning his millstone of lehi's route and was simply pressured to ask about more important issues (judging by his post #46 which returns to the issue of speculations regarding Lehi's route). If he is unwilling to let go of the petty and insignificant data, he will never be able to pay attention to the profound and important data. What you are trying to teach him WAS and still IS more important than his current insistent questioning which, has speculation and endless debate written all over it.
What will happen in our lives if we habitually abandon the profound in order to consider the petty?
If Sniper762 will not understand that there are salvational principles (such as the nature of existence, a principle upon which all other authentic theology rests...) staring him in the face that are more important than speculating about ancient routes of travel, then I do NOT think he is ready to have discussions regarding profound, salvational principles.
Sniper762 - you asked if I had questions regarding the principles that I was reading and you asked how my questions were answered.
Some theological questions are simply more important than others and, when I first started learning about the LDS restoration of early salvational principles, I attempted to answer the most important questions FIRST rather than pursuing answers to trivial and unimportant questions that do not provide significant benefit to anyone. Questions relating to principles of salvation are, to me, among the most important ones to have answered correctly.
The point is that I spent my time asking the IMPORTANT QUESTIONS and trying to learn about the basic but profoundly important questions relating to principles of SALVATION and obedience to God and faith in his promises rather than becoming bogged down in speculations of lehi's route. When I did what God said to do, and tried my best to fulfill the conditions of God's promise in Book of Mormon, Moroni 10:6 that he would confirm the truth of what I was reading, God gave me answers by revelation and by diligent study.
I also pointed out to you that the very doctrines I was being taught by the LDS and by reading the Pearl of Great Price WERE the same doctrines as the ancient sacred Judao-Christian texts taught (but which have been abandoned by the majority of Modern Christians).
I also pointed out that profoundly important questions that philosophers and religionists have debated and argued about for the past 1700 years have been neatly answered simply by a restoration to the earliest doctrines. To discover and to understand such principles of salvation are much more important than spending time trying to speculate on the route of travel of a character in the book of Mormon (or in the Bible or any other book).
I think I'll stop here unless I feel there is an authentic reason to continue -
clear
vinedrgh
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search the scriptures
Member
noone answered my question
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Hi, Search. This is probably the question you said nobody has answered.the Apostasy:
i really dont understand if some of the truth was lost or hidden. or if it was always present with humanity(like the bible), but we rejected it as willing act of man...
"i really dont understand if something was lost or hidden"
if this were true, it would make this false:
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
the verse to me implies either from the apostles death until joseph smith all man was lost... : 2co 4:3 "are lost:"
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
"or, if it(the truth) was always present with humanity(like the bible), but we rejected it as a willing act of man... "
the problem with that is:
the book of mormon -scripture = "fulness of the gospel", in some form would have to be here(on earth/avalable), before joseph smith. that is, if the gospel was not hidden from humanity until joseph smith.
or am i simply confused, please explain the apostasy in deatail for me
The Greek word for "Apostasy" is "apostasia," which means "falling away." We believe, as you probably know, that there was a more or less universal apostasy, or falling away from the truth after the death of Christ's Apostles.
Even in Old Testament times, God's prophets warned that the time would come when the word of the Lord would not be found anywhere in the world.
In Amos 8:11-12, we are told, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord; And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it."
Contrary to most other Christian denominations, we contend that this prophesy did, in fact, come to pass, and that shortly after the deaths of Christ's Apostles, the Church He personally established ceased to exist in its original form -- in other words that there was, for many, many years, a famine in the world "a famine of hearing the words of the Lord" and that, regardless of where one might wander in search of God's word, it could not be found.
Throughout the New Testament, the Apostles also warned that this was to happen. Paul seemed particularly concerned about the infant Church and frequently voiced his concerns to the early Christians. Among his statements to Christ's followers, are these:
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel…
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears…
Paul made it absolutely clear that (1)the flock would not only be attacked, it would not be spared, (2) Christ would not return to the earth until this universal "falling away" or "apostasy" had taken place, (3) these things were already beginning to take place as he spoke, and (4) the doctrines taught by the Savior would, in time, cease to endure.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds that during the first few centuries after the Savior and His Apostles died, Christianity began to evolve into something quite different than it had originally been. While the Apostles, who assumed leadership over the Church after Christ's death, undoubtedly did everything within their power to preserve and strengthen the Church, there were, unfortunately, other forces at work. Within a matter of just a few years following their deaths, the simplicity and purity of Christ’s teachings had begun to undergo some rather significant changes. Greek philosophical thought corrupted such basic doctrines as the true nature of God and man’s relationship to Him, as learned but uninspired men sought to make this new religion more acceptable to the masses, and especially to the non-Jewish convert. Finally, and probably most important of all, God withdrew His priesthood from the earth. What did this mean? It meant that there was no one left who held the authority to act in His name. With God no longer directing the affairs of His Church, man was on his own. Through debate and discussion, by vote and by compromise, what we now know as “mainstream” Christianity emerged.
Religious scholars describe this as "The Helenization of Christianity." We call it simply, "The Great Apostasy."
Does this mean that Christianity ceased to exist entirely? No. There have been devout Christians ever since the time of Christ. But the "fullness" of His gospel was taken from the earth, just as the ancient prophets said it would be.
Does that help?
search the scriptures
Member
hey katzpur thanks for answering, but here is how i come to my conclusions so far
"2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first"
falling away :
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), ("apostasy"): - falling away, forsake.
defection : An instance of defecting from or abandoning a cause.(truth)
when you abandon a child, it is still there... willingly forsaking the child. half the child is not there, the whole child..
when you "forsake assembly" the assembling of the saints happens without you.
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together
why did the fulness of the gospel become lost, until joseph smith's restoration?
it should have always been present, and we willingly forsook it/ abandoned it.
"
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
gal 1:6 :
"removed from him that called you into the grace of christ unto another gospel
"removed from" = taken away / converted from
him that called you = jesus/god = through the gospel- (called by the gospel - 2th 2:14)
" into" = unto = to = in
" the grace of christ " = the true gospel = god's gift of love to humainty = undeserved favor from god = the good message
"unto" = into = to = in
"another gospel" = false gospel = false good message
"In Amos 8:11-12, we are told, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord; And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it." "
Amo 8:13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
Amo 8:14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.
so from the apostles death until joseph smith everyone was damned?
"the sin of Samaria"
Hos 7:1 When I would have healed Israel, then the iniquity of Ephraim was discovered, and the wickedness of Samaria: for they commit falsehood; and the thief cometh in, and the troop of robbers spoileth without.
Hos 7:2 And they consider not in their hearts that I remember all their wickedness: now their own doings have beset them about; they are before my face.
Hos 7:3 They make the king glad with their wickedness, and the princes with their lies.
Hos 7:4 They are all adulterers, as an oven heated by the baker, who ceaseth from raising after he hath kneaded the dough, until it be leavened.
Hos 7:5 In the day of our king the princes have made him sick with bottles of wine; he stretched out his hand with scorners.
Hos 7:6 For they have made ready their heart like an oven, whiles they lie in wait: their baker sleepeth all the night; in the morning it burneth as a flaming fire.
Hos 7:7 They are all hot as an oven, and have devoured their judges; all their kings are fallen: there is none among them that calleth unto me.
Hos 7:13 Woe unto them! for they have fled from me: destruction unto them! because they have transgressed against me: though I have redeemed them, yet they have spoken lies against me.
Hos 7:14 And they have not cried unto me with their heart, when they howled upon their beds: they assemble themselves for corn and wine, and they rebel against me.
thanks for answering, but here is how i come to my conclusions so far"2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first"
falling away :
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), ("apostasy"): - falling away, forsake.
defection : An instance of defecting from or abandoning a cause.(truth)
when you abandon a child, it is still there... willingly forsaking the child. half the child is not there, the whole child..
when you "forsake assembly" the assembling of the saints happens without you.
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together
why did the fulness of the gospel become lost, until joseph smith's restoration?
it should have always been present, and we willingly forsook it/ abandoned it.
"
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
gal 1:6 :
"removed from him that called you into the grace of christ unto another gospel
"removed from" = taken away / converted from
him that called you = jesus/god = through the gospel- (called by the gospel - 2th 2:14)
" into" = unto = to = in
" the grace of christ " = the true gospel = god's gift of love to humainty = undeserved favor from god = the good message
"unto" = into = to = in
"another gospel" = false gospel = false good message
"In Amos 8:11-12, we are told, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord; And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it." "
Amo 8:13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
Amo 8:14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.
so from the apostles death until joseph smith everyone was damned?
"the sin of Samaria"
Hos 7:1 When I would have healed Israel, then the iniquity of Ephraim was discovered, and the wickedness of Samaria: for they commit falsehood; and the thief cometh in, and the troop of robbers spoileth without.
Hos 7:2 And they consider not in their hearts that I remember all their wickedness: now their own doings have beset them about; they are before my face.
Hos 7:3 They make the king glad with their wickedness, and the princes with their lies.
Hos 7:4 They are all adulterers, as an oven heated by the baker, who ceaseth from raising after he hath kneaded the dough, until it be leavened.
Hos 7:5 In the day of our king the princes have made him sick with bottles of wine; he stretched out his hand with scorners.
Hos 7:6 For they have made ready their heart like an oven, whiles they lie in wait: their baker sleepeth all the night; in the morning it burneth as a flaming fire.
Hos 7:7 They are all hot as an oven, and have devoured their judges; all their kings are fallen: there is none among them that calleth unto me.
Hos 7:13 Woe unto them! for they have fled from me: destruction unto them! because they have transgressed against me: though I have redeemed them, yet they have spoken lies against me.
Hos 7:14 And they have not cried unto me with their heart, when they howled upon their beds: they assemble themselves for corn and wine, and they rebel against me.
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
No, of course not. Everyone will have the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ taught in the Spirit World if they did not have that opportunity during their mortality.
search the scriptures
Member
well "Amos 8:11-12" mention "they", who will be thirsty but not find truth.
in amos 8:13 "in that day" of fufilment, amos 8:14 "they" will be complete by the sin of samaria.
amos 8:14 "they that swear" =　shâba‛ shaw-bah' A primitive root; properly to be complete
samaria was guilty of falsehood : Hos 7:1 the wickedness of Samaria: for they commit falsehood;
and "they in amo 8:14 will :
"they shall fall, and never rise up again. "
was everyone during the apostasy damned?
in amos 8:13 "in that day" of fufilment, amos 8:14 "they" will be complete by the sin of samaria.
amos 8:14 "they that swear" =　shâba‛ shaw-bah' A primitive root; properly to be complete
samaria was guilty of falsehood : Hos 7:1 the wickedness of Samaria: for they commit falsehood;
and "they in amo 8:14 will :
"they shall fall, and never rise up again. "
was everyone during the apostasy damned?
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Orontes
Master of the Horse
Orontes
Master of the Horse
It may be helpful to take note Apostasia in Greek is a military term. It is an internal rejection of authority. This is why the qualifier in your noted definition includes "from the state". Mutiny is the best single word to describe the notion, over the King James' use of "falling away".
To your question: "(W)as everyone during the apostasy damned?" Yes.
Apostasy is a negative thing. It is the loss of authority. A loss of the sealing power. Any born during the Apostasy was unable to progress. This is why part and parcel of the Restoration includes a redemption of the dead*, whereby those who died can have the ordinances and covenants performed on their behalf by those with authority still on the earth, so they may move forward. A reindeer herdsman born a 1000 years ago on the Mongolian Stepp who never heard of Christ must have the same opportunity to know and embrace his Savior as any other man. Mormonism is able to fully accept principles such as all must be born again to be fully redeemed with the reality, large numbers have lived and died without ever knowing the truth. Divine justice is preserved.
*Mormons hold that after death the souls of the departed go into the spirit world. This is not their final state, but an interim condition before the Final Judgment tied to Christ's Second Coming."
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