More Internal Spying

[Booko]

Who said there were millions of Anti-American people in this country? Again, the phone calls that have actually been monitored for content have been calls with people OUTSIDE the country. When you call your parents in the next town, the government isn't listening in.

And you know that....how? Because someone said so? If we all start posting the things that our gov't has said over the years that were absolutely untrue, Todd would run out of server space.

Hm, I believe in this thread I posted the story of the peace group that was infiltrated by a cop. Very dangerous people, those, to get spyed on. Oh, but no one will spy on you unless you're doing something wrong.

I'm sorry FGS, but there's just too much history of gov'ts abusing power to believe that it couldn't be happening right now. Frankly I would've thought the fact that the White House has broken the law by not bringing matters to FISA court would be a reason to reconsider this.

The Prez' excuse for this was that it was "an old law." Apparently his oath of office to uphold the laws of this country only counts if he feels like it that day.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

And you know that....how? Because someone said so? If we all start posting the things that our gov't has said over the years that were absolutely untrue, Todd would run out of server space.

How do you know it's absolutely untrue?

Hm, I believe in this thread I posted the story of the peace group that was infiltrated by a cop. Very dangerous people, those, to get spyed on. Oh, but no one will spy on you unless you're doing something wrong.

Cops and the federal government are two diffrent things. The President doesn't give orders to local police every morning.

I'm sorry FGS, but there's just too much history of gov'ts abusing power to believe that it couldn't be happening right now. Frankly I would've thought the fact that the White House has broken the law by not bringing matters to FISA court would be a reason to reconsider this.

So because OTHER governments have abused power, that means our government MUST be abusing power in this instance? What good does it do for the government to listen in on you calling your husband to tell him what's for dinner tonight? That's a complete waste of time, and there's simply no reason that the government would waste their time on such things. It would be impossible for the government to listen to every phone call that goes on in the US all day and all night long. Thus, they selectively chose the very few calls which are with someone from outside the US, who has suspected ties to terrorism. There's just not anything wrong with that, and it doesn't affect the average American at all.

FerventGodSeeker

 

[Booko]

How do you know it's absolutely untrue?

Well, that's rather the point, isn't it? We don't know, and we have no way of knowing. When our gov't has spied on innocent Americans, it's always been denied at first, then they deem it "classified" and eventually some decent civil servant blows the lid off the mess.

So because OTHER governments have abused power, that means our government MUST be abusing power in this instance? What good does it do for the government to listen in on you calling your husband to tell him what's for dinner tonight? That's a complete waste of time, and there's simply no reason that the government would waste their time on such things. It would be impossible for the government to listen to every phone call that goes on in the US all day and all night long. Thus, they selectively chose the very few calls which are with someone from outside the US, who has suspected ties to terrorism. There's just not anything wrong with that, and it doesn't affect the average American at all.

Where did you get "other" gov'ts in my remarks, FGS? I've been talking in this thread about OUR gov'ts history of spying on American citizens where there was no justification.

And lest you think our gov't scattergun methods to supposedly deter terrorism don't affect real people, read the story about my business partner's husband who's license was pulled because of the Patriot Act and a dumb typo. He darned near got himself tossed in jail over that, and missed 3 days of income to straighten it out. They're just now getting back up to speed on paying their bills, because they couldn't afford missing 3 days of income.

Oh yeah, and my partner has an FBI file because she walked in a Vietnam era peace parade once. That's worth spying on someone?

C'mon FGS, our history for nearly the past century has plenty of examples of abuses of power. If we all stick our head in the sand like it never happens, that just ensures it *will* happen.

edit: Oh, and btw it wouldn't surprise me at all if I found out that someone was listening in on my conversations. You see, I have all these friends who are Iranian immigrants, who call their families back home.

When you understand how the latest NSA data-mining effort works, it's entirely possible that they might make one more step along the line and wonder if I'm up to no good.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

A tad. But, of course, the most extreme examples are usually the easiest to present. Is "I plan to vote for.... (a non Right-wing candidate)" anti-American? Is "Are you going to that peace protest?" anti-American? Is "I disagree with our government's current opinion on gay marriage" anti-American? Is "I kind of wish that we could focus less energy on (fill in the blank) and actually try to help Darfur!" anti-American? Is "Please come to my pagan circle (or whatever religion is not concurrent with those in power) next week!" anti- American?

The fact that you would only say "a tad" to what you then call "the most extreme examples" kinda worries me.
In my view, none of those things are anti-American. Sadly, many people in this world go far beyond such examples, even to the examples I presented, in expressing their views on the United States. Such sentiments are most certainly anti-American.

FerventGodSeeker

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Well, that's rather the point, isn't it? We don't know, and we have no way of knowing. When our gov't has spied on innocent Americans, it's always been denied at first, then they deem it "classified" and eventually some decent civil servant blows the lid off the mess.

Well unfortunately, Booko, sometimes countries go through times of war. In such times, some information, technology, etc. used by the government needs to be kept classified so that our country doesn't suffer the consequences. Also, some renegade media journalist isn't always (or even usually) the one who "blows the lid" off classified info. The government reveals classified information to the public. Yes, the big bad government actually tells us what they've been up to when we're not in the middle of a war. Shocking, I know.

Where did you get "other" gov'ts in my remarks, FGS? I've been talking in this thread about OUR gov'ts history of spying on American citizens where there was no justification.

Did you not say, "I'm sorry FGS, but there's just too much history of gov'ts abusing power to believe that it couldn't be happening right now".
Maybe that was a typo, but I believe "gov'ts" is short for "governments".

And lest you think our gov't scattergun methods to supposedly deter terrorism don't affect real people, read the story about my business partner's husband who's license was pulled because of the Patriot Act and a dumb typo. He darned near got himself tossed in jail over that, and missed 3 days of income to straighten it out. They're just now getting back up to speed on paying their bills, because they couldn't afford missing 3 days of income.

So we should toss out such measures because they're not perfect? Because there was a typo? I really don't think the average American has been affected at all by the Patriot Act, other than increased stress over opposing it or opposing those who oppose it.

Oh yeah, and my partner has an FBI file because she walked in a Vietnam era peace parade once. That's worth spying on someone?

If she has an FBI file she was probably arrested, am I correct?

C'mon FGS, our history for nearly the past century has plenty of examples of abuses of power. If we all stick our head in the sand like it never happens, that just ensures it *will* happen.

And to pretend as though past abuses indicate that there MUST be abuse going on now is simply erroneous logic.

FerventGodSeeker

 

[Sunstone]

And I believe that all conservatives, especially those in elected positions, are out to get me. They probably have tiny cameras hidden all over my house to see what I talk about, and if I vote Democrat they'll probably come and take me away in an unmarked van. Haven't you heard about this stuff? It's all totally documented, just read up on it. I'm actually convinced that President Bush is the Anti-Christ. As a matter of fact, America is just a big mean bully all around, we're practically Nazis, especially our President. But don't worry, I'm TOTALLY a patriot.

FerventGodSeeker

Certainly not all political opponents of conservatives believe as you characterize them. On the other hand, I have heard even from mainstream conservatives such naive notions as the government will not abuse powers given to it to fight terrorists, and that anyone who is investigated by the government deserves to be investigated. Do you hold either of those notions? If so, what history backs up your views? Or, do you take those notions on faith?

 

[ChrisP]

I see from our local newspapers that the spin control has begun. Even CNN is getting in on the act.

I'm not sure how to put this, so here's hoping the usual blunt bludgeon won't raise too many hackles stateside.

The US's civic freedom's were utterly unprecedented when created back when the "Declaration of Independence" was signed. No Country in the world had had that freedom since those few short years when the US was finding it's feet, and none have had it since. It is in the nature of those who wish to govern to want control. One of the advantages of a stable Monarchy is that it was handed down through families allowing people out there to know what standard of governance they could expect in their country, and to what level they were free.

The freedom that Americans expect for themselves have been non-existant since the early 20th Century. People who want power can only have it by limiting the control of other people over their lives (ie if you want something you have to take it from somewhere/one else. Control should be no different). So really what we are seeing now, is the effect of free information flow through the internet. Internet uptake internationally is incredible, and people internationally are increasing their understanding of how governments and those with influence contort our views to suit their needs. Awareness Understanding. Two beautiful, beautiful things.

Think for yourselves dear people. Question authority.

 

[Booko]

Well unfortunately, Booko, sometimes countries go through times of war. In such times, some information, technology, etc. used by the government needs to be kept classified so that our country doesn't suffer the consequences. Also, some renegade media journalist isn't always (or even usually) the one who "blows the lid" off classified info. The government reveals classified information to the public. Yes, the big bad government actually tells us what they've been up to when we're not in the middle of a war. Shocking, I know.

FGS, this is not a time of war. That's what any smart gov't tells its sheeple to make them roll over and put up with all sorts of things in the name of safety.

I'm quite aware the gov't leak information for their own interests. Where the heck do you think Plame's identity came from -- her husband? Just because I refuse to take any political sides doesn't mean I'm some kind of political neophyte.

Did you not say, "I'm sorry FGS, but there's just too much history of gov'ts abusing power to believe that it couldn't be happening right now".
Maybe that was a typo, but I believe "gov'ts" is short for "governments".

Yes, and what's your point? I'm not at all following you. I was making a point about *human behaviour* in regards to positions of power. The fact that the same things happen in gov'ts throughout history does not change the fact that the same things happen here. It only proves that "it's happened before, and it'll happen again." People have not changed that much. Is this clearer?

So we should toss out such measures because they're not perfect? Because there was a typo? I really don't think the average American has been affected at all by the Patriot Act, other than increased stress over opposing it or opposing those who oppose it.

No, and I never suggest that. But the alternative, which is what you seem to be proposing, is that we just play "don't worry, be happy" and never think any gov't in this country would be capable of unjustly spying on innocent citizens as a matter of politics. That's opposed to just being a mistake -- I don't expect perfection or anything like that.

I have news for you -- our gov't has, in the past, spied on its citizens for no more reason than political gain, and further has used information to abuse people and oppress entire groups it disagrees with. Since it's happened before, why can it not happen again? Do you suggest we sit idly by here and not object? There are ways to keep the gov't in check that the Founders provided us. And why should we not take the Founders' warnings about gov'ts seriously and use the tools they were wise enough to give us?

If we must use measures, that's fine. But there are CONSTITUTIONAL ways to use them, as opposed to the ILLEGAL ones that we've seen of late. Remeber the FISA court? Ignored as "an old law." Did you notice that the NSA sought to get legal approval for the NSA spying program that would allow them to go to FISA, but *they couldn't* (they even went to Ashcroft in the hospital, and he turned them down). So their response -- oh, just do it anyway!

If she has an FBI file she was probably arrested, am I correct?

No, she was never arrested. Do you really have no idea what the FBI was up to during the Vietnam War or the McCarthy era? Please read up on this.

And to pretend as though past abuses indicate that there MUST be abuse going on now is simply erroneous logic.

I submit that there are *current* abuses, right now, one of which I outlined above. There are others as well. And if there are abuses already, why should I not suspect there's more that we don't know about all in the name of "it's classified because we have to get terrorists?" Congress itself is starting to make noise about them not doing their job. I don't think I personally need to see classified information, but there needs to be oversight, and for purely partisan reasons there hasn't been any. There won't be any until our Congresscritters of whatever political stripe fear for their political careers.