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Morality

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Like all people likely think, I believe the moral system I adhere to is not only reasonable, but more moral, effective, and ethical than that of other philosophies. The Law of Thelema is a moral axiom that states that the only law is to do ones true will. True will is then defined and explained as ones "proper course through life." For example, if you've decided all your life to be a counselor, have the natural born skills it takes, desire such a course, etc, this would be considered ones true will. If instead you become a dentist like mom and dad, you are putting their will over yours, and in the end will be less happy as well as useful to others as well. In other words, it's a moral axiom of individual freedom, allowing and aiding those to find and achieve their true will.

As far a Setianism, I think it can be simplified and expanded upon. We are each unique, isolate, self owned individuals, and control over that individual self is central. Through respecting individuals as free, independent agents, individuality becomes the center of morality, as opposed to something external. Setianism also accepts the fact that self care and actualization is key to a better life, both for the individual and, in effect, society as a whole. It's not about pleasing a deity, it's about taking care of oneself and society. People should be judged on individual merit and action alone, and they should be encouraged and aided in attaining their goals, in reaching self actualization.

Obviously in religions like Christianity and Islam, this is a big problem. Probably for all religions who sacrifice the self to the greater whole, or rely on external morality. In these religions, morals are valuable because they are the will of the creator, and not adhering to them can cause eternal punishment. Some individuals do not even understand how morality can be valid without god, a fact I find quite terrifying.

On the other hand, certain morals systems do not accept human free will, which generally leads to a more nihilistic (strick relativism) moral system, rather than an existential (soft relativism) or divine (moral objectivity) moral systems. I personally believe that we do indeed have at least some degree of free will, an ability to fight against natural drives, reactions, emotions, and so on. If we do not have free will, even existential morality is useless because people are not responsible for their own actions. A judicial system absolutely relies on the idea that people are responsible for their actions.

To summarize:

I think the individual is the center of the morality. We must take care of the self first, otherwise we cannot even help others to any extent. Selfless systems of morality are invalid, because in the end you need to care for your own well being in order to be of any use to others. I also think that we are responsible for our own actions, at least in general (allowing of course for mental disability, things of that nature). Therefore, systems of morality which do not accept free will are also invalid, or at least must be treated as so, else no system of judgement could work. This places me at odds with probably a vast majority on both sides, haha. In the end I think a more self focused system that puts an influence on free agency is the most reasonable and effective moral system.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Like all people likely think, I believe the moral system I adhere to is not only reasonable, but more moral, effective, and ethical than that of other philosophies. The Law of Thelema is a moral axiom that states that the only law is to do ones true will. True will is then defined and explained as ones "proper course through life." For example, if you've decided all your life to be a counselor, have the natural born skills it takes, desire such a course, etc, this would be considered ones true will. If instead you become a dentist like mom and dad, you are putting their will over yours, and in the end will be less happy as well as useful to others as well. In other words, it's a moral axiom of individual freedom, allowing and aiding those to find and achieve their true will.

As far a Setianism, I think it can be simplified and expanded upon. We are each unique, isolate, self owned individuals, and control over that individual self is central. Through respecting individuals as free, independent agents, individuality becomes the center of morality, as opposed to something external. Setianism also accepts the fact that self care and actualization is key to a better life, both for the individual and, in effect, society as a whole. It's not about pleasing a deity, it's about taking care of oneself and society. People should be judged on individual merit and action alone, and they should be encouraged and aided in attaining their goals, in reaching self actualization.

Obviously in religions like Christianity and Islam, this is a big problem. Probably for all religions who sacrifice the self to the greater whole, or rely on external morality. In these religions, morals are valuable because they are the will of the creator, and not adhering to them can cause eternal punishment. Some individuals do not even understand how morality can be valid without god, a fact I find quite terrifying.

On the other hand, certain morals systems do not accept human free will, which generally leads to a more nihilistic (strick relativism) moral system, rather than an existential (soft relativism) or divine (moral objectivity) moral systems. I personally believe that we do indeed have at least some degree of free will, an ability to fight against natural drives, reactions, emotions, and so on. If we do not have free will, even existential morality is useless because people are not responsible for their own actions. A judicial system absolutely relies on the idea that people are responsible for their actions.

To summarize:

I think the individual is the center of the morality. We must take care of the self first, otherwise we cannot even help others to any extent. Selfless systems of morality are invalid, because in the end you need to care for your own well being in order to be of any use to others. I also think that we are responsible for our own actions, at least in general (allowing of course for mental disability, things of that nature). Therefore, systems of morality which do not accept free will are also invalid, or at least must be treated as so, else no system of judgement could work. This places me at odds with probably a vast majority on both sides, haha. In the end I think a more self focused system that puts an influence on free agency is the most reasonable and effective moral system.
Indeed, early Buddhism also teaches similarly in regards to improving one's self first: see the Sedaka Sutta (SN 47.19).

Also, early Buddhism teaches a combination of free will and determinism. The acts which we've performed in the past forces many specific circumstances in our present (cause & effect/kamma/determinism). However, intention in the present can be applied consciously to modify those circumstances (free will), to produce a change of circumstances in the future. A feedback loop, so to speak.

E.g. A person performs evil deeds in his past and is thus filled with negative states of mind in the present. He can either 1. instinctually go along with his negative states of mind and continue to perform evil deeds, or 2. apply intention to resist or ignore those negative states of mind to act according to wisdom instead of blindly allowing instinct to propel him along the same negative states of mind.
 

Blastcat

Active Member
he Law of Thelema is a moral axiom that states that the only law is to do ones true will. True will is then defined and explained as ones "proper course through life."

What if I decide that my "proper course through life is to be the best psychotic killer that ever was"?
 

Paradox22

I'm only Hume ian
If we do not have free will, even existential morality is useless because people are not responsible for their own actions. A judicial system absolutely relies on the idea that people are responsible for their actions.

I think the individual is the center of the morality. We must take care of the self first, otherwise we cannot even help others to any extent. Selfless systems of morality are invalid, because in the end you need to care for your own well being in order to be of any use to others.
... systems of morality which do not accept free will are also invalid, or at least must be treated as so, else no system of judgement could work. .

I would not be so quick to judge different theories of morality as invalid. Regarding a normative theory that focuses on selfless altruism, I would say that it is impractical, but not invalid.

Nor do I think that one has to believe in free will to have a valid normative theory of morality. We could say in a deterministic world, it is unjust to judge/punish people based on conduct that is contrary to a moral theory, but that isn't to say a normative theory of morality is worthless.

That said, I appreciate the value of respecting people's autonomy, but wouldn't you say there are some things that are more important than just freedom from interference? If I find myself in a position where I can aide someone by influencing their actions, in order that they can gain some benefit, what does your normative moral theory guide me to do? What can count as worthwhile reasons to aide someone even if it means influencing their behavior? Am I to watch someone burn all their money, literally, when I know they have no other money to feed their children? Surely a complete moral theory has to have a way to give guidance on what I should do in various different situations. So ask yourself, what has moral value in addition to autonomy? I would suggest having sufficient resources to fulfill one's basic needs is good and important. Therefore, in my moral view, there is some moral imperative for me to assist other's if it does not involve a large sacrifice of my own resources. That is just an example
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I believe in the moral direction of what the Golden Rule says.

Doesn't that get you only so far?

What if I decide that my "proper course through life is to be the best psychotic killer that ever was"?

Then it would see you are a danger to society, and should be removed and hopefully treated for it. It's not a simply matter of "do whatever you want," but about doing what you want while allowing others to do the same.

I would not be so quick to judge different theories of morality as invalid. Regarding a normative theory that focuses on selfless altruism, I would say that it is impractical, but not invalid.

Nor do I think that one has to believe in free will to have a valid normative theory of morality. We could say in a deterministic world, it is unjust to judge/punish people based on conduct that is contrary to a moral theory, but that isn't to say a normative theory of morality is worthless.

That said, I appreciate the value of respecting people's autonomy, but wouldn't you say there are some things that are more important than just freedom from interference? If I find myself in a position where I can aide someone by influencing their actions, in order that they can gain some benefit, what does your normative moral theory guide me to do? What can count as worthwhile reasons to aide someone even if it means influencing their behavior? Am I to watch someone burn all their money, literally, when I know they have no other money to feed their children? Surely a complete moral theory has to have a way to give guidance on what I should do in various different situations. So ask yourself, what has moral value in addition to autonomy? I would suggest having sufficient resources to fulfill people's needs is good and important. Therefore, in my moral view, there is some moral imperative for me to assist other's if it does not involve a large sacrifice of my own needs. That is just an example

I would agree that we have a responsibility for each other. Like I said, we're not only concerned with our own freedom and development, but allowing and aiding other to do the same.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Then it would see you are a danger to society, and should be removed and hopefully treated for it. It's not a simply matter of "do whatever you want," but about doing what you want while allowing others to do the same.
"treated for it"?
How would that be different, other than no say in the matter, than the counselor becoming a dentist?
 

Bill Van Fleet

Active Member
There is no absolute ethics. Our species has two basic sets of interpersonal interactive behaviors as a part of our basic animal nature. We have that set that is especially enhanced by oxytocin: affection, attachment, mutual pleasuring, cooperation, etc. And we have that set that basically consists of fighting, struggling for dominance, etc., essentially the infliction of pain, suffering, disability, and/or early death (PSDED) of all levels of intensity and sophistication, from the arching of the eyebrow to genocide, and all in between. Our ethics is primarily authoritarian-ethical (obedience to the most powerful). We are beginning to manifest Humanian ethics, but we are probably only about 2% along the way. There is nothing that makes one kind of ethics the right one. We simply can choose what we want. I want Humanian ethics, and am doing what I can to advocate for our inhibiting our tendency to fight. But that tendency is strong within all of us. And we are picking as our leaders those that we see as strong fighters. And we are dividing up our big nuclear bombs into many small ones that can be sprinkled widely over the planet, fulfilling our fantasy of the apocalypse. Doesn't anyone want to join me in advocating for Humanian ethics?
HUMANIANITY HOME
 
Like all people likely think, I believe the moral system I adhere to is not only reasonable, but more moral, effective, and ethical than that of other philosophies. The Law of Thelema is a moral axiom that states that the only law is to do ones true will. True will is then defined and explained as ones "proper course through life." For example, if you've decided all your life to be a counselor, have the natural born skills it takes, desire such a course, etc, this would be considered ones true will. If instead you become a dentist like mom and dad, you are putting their will over yours, and in the end will be less happy as well as useful to others as well. In other words, it's a moral axiom of individual freedom, allowing and aiding those to find and achieve their true will.

As far a Setianism, I think it can be simplified and expanded upon. We are each unique, isolate, self owned individuals, and control over that individual self is central. Through respecting individuals as free, independent agents, individuality becomes the center of morality, as opposed to something external. Setianism also accepts the fact that self care and actualization is key to a better life, both for the individual and, in effect, society as a whole. It's not about pleasing a deity, it's about taking care of oneself and society. People should be judged on individual merit and action alone, and they should be encouraged and aided in attaining their goals, in reaching self actualization.

Obviously in religions like Christianity and Islam, this is a big problem. Probably for all religions who sacrifice the self to the greater whole, or rely on external morality. In these religions, morals are valuable because they are the will of the creator, and not adhering to them can cause eternal punishment. Some individuals do not even understand how morality can be valid without god, a fact I find quite terrifying.

On the other hand, certain morals systems do not accept human free will, which generally leads to a more nihilistic (strick relativism) moral system, rather than an existential (soft relativism) or divine (moral objectivity) moral systems. I personally believe that we do indeed have at least some degree of free will, an ability to fight against natural drives, reactions, emotions, and so on. If we do not have free will, even existential morality is useless because people are not responsible for their own actions. A judicial system absolutely relies on the idea that people are responsible for their actions.

To summarize:

I think the individual is the center of the morality. We must take care of the self first, otherwise we cannot even help others to any extent. Selfless systems of morality are invalid, because in the end you need to care for your own well being in order to be of any use to others. I also think that we are responsible for our own actions, at least in general (allowing of course for mental disability, things of that nature). Therefore, systems of morality which do not accept free will are also invalid, or at least must be treated as so, else no system of judgement could work. This places me at odds with probably a vast majority on both sides, haha. In the end I think a more self focused system that puts an influence on free agency is the most reasonable and effective moral system.

It puts you at odds with Christianity and Islam in that they both profess deity to be omniscient. That is he knew the end before the beginning.
"You know my thoughts before I think them."
OMNISCIENCE precludes free will.
 

neologist

Member
It puts you at odds with Christianity and Islam in that they both profess deity to be omniscient. That is he knew the end before the beginning.
"You know my thoughts before I think them."
OMNISCIENCE precludes free will.
Be careful how you define.
The Bible credits the creator with the ability to know all things, even to see into the future. But having the ability in no way creates a necessity. God is under no such constraint any more than you or I must be compelled to read the last page of the whodunit.
 

Dave Smith

Member
Like all people likely think, I believe the moral system I adhere to is not only reasonable, but more moral, effective, and ethical than that of other philosophies. The Law of Thelema is a moral axiom that states that the only law is to do ones true will. True will is then defined and explained as ones "proper course through life." For example, if you've decided all your life to be a counselor, have the natural born skills it takes, desire such a course, etc, this would be considered ones true will. If instead you become a dentist like mom and dad, you are putting their will over yours, and in the end will be less happy as well as useful to others as well. In other words, it's a moral axiom of individual freedom, allowing and aiding those to find and achieve their true will.

As far a Setianism, I think it can be simplified and expanded upon. We are each unique, isolate, self owned individuals, and control over that individual self is central. Through respecting individuals as free, independent agents, individuality becomes the center of morality, as opposed to something external. Setianism also accepts the fact that self care and actualization is key to a better life, both for the individual and, in effect, society as a whole. It's not about pleasing a deity, it's about taking care of oneself and society. People should be judged on individual merit and action alone, and they should be encouraged and aided in attaining their goals, in reaching self actualization.

Obviously in religions like Christianity and Islam, this is a big problem. Probably for all religions who sacrifice the self to the greater whole, or rely on external morality. In these religions, morals are valuable because they are the will of the creator, and not adhering to them can cause eternal punishment. Some individuals do not even understand how morality can be valid without god, a fact I find quite terrifying.

On the other hand, certain morals systems do not accept human free will, which generally leads to a more nihilistic (strick relativism) moral system, rather than an existential (soft relativism) or divine (moral objectivity) moral systems. I personally believe that we do indeed have at least some degree of free will, an ability to fight against natural drives, reactions, emotions, and so on. If we do not have free will, even existential morality is useless because people are not responsible for their own actions. A judicial system absolutely relies on the idea that people are responsible for their actions.

To summarize:

I think the individual is the center of the morality. We must take care of the self first, otherwise we cannot even help others to any extent. Selfless systems of morality are invalid, because in the end you need to care for your own well being in order to be of any use to others. I also think that we are responsible for our own actions, at least in general (allowing of course for mental disability, things of that nature). Therefore, systems of morality which do not accept free will are also invalid, or at least must be treated as so, else no system of judgement could work. This places me at odds with probably a vast majority on both sides, haha. In the end I think a more self focused system that puts an influence on free agency is the most reasonable and effective moral system.

Serpent - If you believe that morality is absolutely self centered then how do you test this hypothesis if you have no external reference? I think that you must agree that Morality must by necessity be true since if it were not then you would have to disagree with yourself. If each persons morality is truth and entirely self centred then I must by necessity disagree with you. If I disagree with you then I must disagree that morality is self centred and therefore opt for an external reference. Your argument is self defeating
 

Dave Smith

Member
Serpent - If you believe that morality is absolutely self centered then how do you test this hypothesis if you have no external reference? I think that you must agree that Morality must by necessity be true since if it were not then you would have to disagree with yourself. If each persons morality is truth and entirely self centred then I must by necessity disagree with you. If I disagree with you then I must disagree that morality is self centred and therefore opt for an external reference. Your argument is self defeating
 

Dave Smith

Member
There is no absolute ethics. Our species has two basic sets of interpersonal interactive behaviors as a part of our basic animal nature. We have that set that is especially enhanced by oxytocin: affection, attachment, mutual pleasuring, cooperation, etc. And we have that set that basically consists of fighting, struggling for dominance, etc., essentially the infliction of pain, suffering, disability, and/or early death (PSDED) of all levels of intensity and sophistication, from the arching of the eyebrow to genocide, and all in between. Our ethics is primarily authoritarian-ethical (obedience to the most powerful). We are beginning to manifest Humanian ethics, but we are probably only about 2% along the way. There is nothing that makes one kind of ethics the right one. We simply can choose what we want. I want Humanian ethics, and am doing what I can to advocate for our inhibiting our tendency to fight. But that tendency is strong within all of us. And we are picking as our leaders those that we see as strong fighters. And we are dividing up our big nuclear bombs into many small ones that can be sprinkled widely over the planet, fulfilling our fantasy of the apocalypse. Doesn't anyone want to join me in advocating for Humanian ethics?
HUMANIANITY HOME

Bill
What are Humanian ethics (are ethics and morals equivalent in this case?) What's wrong with humans destroying ourelves? Again what you believe is ethical must be what you believe is right and if it is right then it must be tru and so what you are saying is 'there is no absolute truth' but then, by that reasoning, what you say cannot be true for anyone.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Doesn't that get you only so far?
When it come to personal relationships, that's enough, as my orientation is "left libertarian", which is very close to where Gandhi was coming from. It is not my sole source, however.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
You can do way better than the Golden Rule. Google "Platinum Rule" for more info.

the problem with the platinum rule is that no one has the ability to control anyone except self. platinum rule fails. even the folks in prison believe. they are there because they did unto others as they believed they could.

we reap what we sow. actions have results
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
the problem with the platinum rule is that no one has the ability to control anyone except self.
How is that a problem with treating others the way they want to be treated?

platinum rule fails.
You have not demonstrated as such.

even the folks in prison believe. they are there because they did unto others as they believed they could.
Here you strongly indicate you do not know what the Platinum Rule is.

we reap what we sow. actions have results
Relevance?
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
How is that a problem with treating others the way they want to be treated?
when the focus is taken off self then the focus is else where. you become driven by objects outside of self. no ONE wins if any ONE loses. what works well for ONE works well for ALL as ONE. ONE golden rule.



You have not demonstrated as such.
for every action there is an opposite but equal reaction. self and other as self must agree for anything to go well. still remains the golden rule. creating a disparity doesn't make it equitable. creates a power struggle based on selfishness

Here you strongly indicate you do not know what the Platinum Rule is.


Relevance?
i read enough to know that the focus isn't on self-control, or mindfulness.
 

Paradox22

I'm only Hume ian
You can do way better than the Golden Rule. Google "Platinum Rule" for more info.

I would not recommend the Platinum Rule as a normative guideline for moral conduct. If someone is doing something that is immoral, what they would want you to do is stand aside or assist them. There has to be more to it than just respecting their autonomy. In my opinion a satisfactory moral principal should respect someone's autonomy, but not make that the only consideration. I suggest if someone is doing something immoral, like attempting to harm others, the moral imperative is that if we are going to intervene, we should go against their preferences. We should interfere.
That said, this criticism is based on the interpretation of the Platinum Rule, when applied to a theory of moral conduct, as an imperative to respect someone else's preferences, which to me means respecting their autonomy, above all else.
 
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