Morality? Right or wrong?

[rrobs]

which, imo, is a whole other can of moral worms.

Yes. Unfortunately morals of any sort too often take a back seat to profit.

But blame people, not the scriptures, or really any other holy book. The books can tell us how we ought to act, and any one of them, if followed, would make for a better world. We can choose to follow or not.

 

[rrobs]

From our perception and intellectual skills, such as they are.
Weak, I agree. But modern folks have more information available than the primitive folks who created Scripture. That's why our ethics are so superior to theirs.


Hitler wasn't much condemned by Christian society back in the 30s.
It's easy to do so with the clarity of hindsight. But Hitler was wildly popular for years in Christendom. He was Making Germany Great Again.

He rather overreached, trying to do to white EuroChristians what he was doing to Jews and Roma and Blacks(and homosexuals). He stopped being so popular. But he didn't really become the poster boy for evil until after WWII.


What's objective about Scripture?

Read the last two chapters of Judges, then explain why murder, kidnapping, and rape are objectively immoral.
You can't do it from a scriptural perspective. Because the ethically primitive people who created Scripture didn't think that they are. They were fine with such things as long as it benefited The Chosen People.

The morality of the authors of Scripture was profoundly subjective. It was all about them, and their God image.

Yuck
Tom

When God first promised a redeemer, the devil made it his goal to stop the bloodline before it ended in Jesus.

He made copious use of people to do his dirty work. God knew that the only way He could keep the program going was to get certain people out of the way. Otherwise they would have ended the bloodline of Jesus and there would have been no redemption. Death would still reign.

It wasn't His first choice though. He originally intended for man to live in a perfect paradise, but Adam thought he could do better. It breaks God's heart to see anyone die, but it was the only way. Besides, we all die at some point. If it meant some had to die early to advance the redeemer, so be it.

Jesus conquered death. Even the people that had to go in the OT will be raised again and judged. If they were decent folks, and I suspect most were, they'll be in the new paradise and their untimely death will soon be forgotten.

Would you feel the same way if all the people God "killed" were all like Hitler? Many were. It was an incredibility savage existence in that place and time. There were lot's of not nice folks around. Worse than Hitler even.

That's a lot to chew on, I realize, but that's it in a nutshell.

 

[columbus]

For many years, up until not very long ago, there was plenty of scientific "evidence" that black folks were not proper humans.

No there wasn't.

There were Christian folks who were accustomed to choosing which bits of evidence served their purposes and ignoring the rest. That's how German Christians became so enamored of Hitler. He told them what they wanted to hear and backed it up with Scripture and Martin Luther and centuries of antiJewish teachings.
Tom

 

[columbus]

When God first promised a redeemer, the devil made it his goal to stop the bloodline before it ended in Jesus.

He made copious

God doesn't care about anything and the devil is a fictional character.
Tom

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

For many years, up until not very long ago, there was plenty of scientific "evidence" that black folks were not proper humans. Yes, genuine scientific science showed that. At least that's what they thought. I of course don't agree, but that doesn't mean they didn't have their "evidence." These were top notch scientists in their day which was less than 100 years ago.

I object, but I'll leave that in the middle.

The difference between science and religion is, off course, that new evidence can make scientific ideas being thrown out like yesterday's paper, which allows for progress in knowledge and by extension moral development.

Religion tends to not handle corrections well.

 

[columbus]

That's a lot to chew on, I realize, but that's it in a nutshell.

It's a batch of implausible, unsupported, assertions made by people I know commonly are egotistical and ethically primitive.
Tom

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Check out the verses in Ex 21 that lead up to verse 5. This is what I meant when I said slavery back then was not at all like the South in the 18th and 19th century.

So, would YOU want to be my slave under biblical rules and regulations for slavery?

 

[rrobs]

No there wasn't.

Did you look?

There were Christian folks who were accustomed to choosing which bits of evidence served their purposes and ignoring the rest. That's how German Christians became so enamored of Hitler. He told them what they wanted to hear and backed it up with Scripture and Martin Luther and centuries of antiJewish teachings.
Tom

I can do everything totally opposite of what the scriptures say and still label myself "Christian." Merely saying, "I'm a Christian" does not necessarily make one so.

You make it sound like God was on board with Hitler. Could you consider the possibility that the "Christians" in Germany were being duped into believing something the scriptures didn't even come close to saying?

 

[rrobs]

It's a batch of implausible, unsupported, assertions made by people I know commonly are egotistical and ethically primitive.
Tom

Well, if I'm egotistical and ethically primitive, why even talk to me? I wouldn't waste my time on such a slug.

 

[rrobs]

So, would YOU want to be my slave under biblical rules and regulations for slavery?

If I lived in those wild times, had lost my home, my job, and everything else, I would certainly consider it. Now that presupposes you would treat me decently, like one of the family, and let me go free after 6 years. Hopefully by then I would have gotten back on my feet. But if I thought you were a great guy to work for, I'd get my ear pierced and stay on with you.

You have to put yourself in those times, with those people, with their customs before you can really understand what's what. You can't approach their culture and condemn it because it is not like yours.

Their society was probably more just and equitable than our own, largely because they had objective morality, be it the scriptures or the Code of Hammurabi. This whole subjective morality is a rather new concept and it's full of about 10 million holes.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Sounds like a loaded question. Why don't you just tell me.

It's not a loaded question at all. You said 'we all know where it comes from'. I dont.

 

[McBell]

Fine definition.

So you're internal morals give you the right to declare somebody else's internal morals right or wrong? Hitler would say your morals are screwed up for letting the Jews live. Who's going to be the judge?

I judge based upon my morals.
Hitler Judges based upon his morals.
You judge based upon your morals.

That you make the bold empty claim that your morals are backed by god does not change the fact that you judge based on your morals.
Claiming divine backing does not make your morals "better" than anyone else's.

 

[McBell]

Because they wanted to.

Exod 21:5-6,

5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:

6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.​

People get pierced ears today just to look good. Seems like it's no big deal.

Check out the verses in Ex 21 that lead up to verse 5. This is what I meant when I said slavery back then was not at all like the South in the 18th and 19th century.

What is the reason for the piercing?
Why the need to differentiate between slaves?

 

[McBell]

Yes. Unfortunately morals of any sort too often take a back seat to profit.

But blame people, not the scriptures, or really any other holy book. The books can tell us how we ought to act, and any one of them, if followed, would make for a better world. We can choose to follow or not.

Except when the scriptures allow slavery....

And the piercing of the ear shows your indentured servant apologetic an irrelevant red herring.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Except when the scriptures allow slavery....

You mean indentured servitude, which lasted only seven years, and which had such strict rules on how the master could treat the servant that it died out because it was economically unfeasible.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If I lived in those wild times, had lost my home, my job, and everything else, I would certainly consider it. Now that presupposes you would treat me decently, like one of the family, and let me go free after 6 years. Hopefully by then I would have gotten back on my feet. But if I thought you were a great guy to work for, I'd get my ear pierced and stay on with you.

I love how you felt the need to insert all those qualifiers.
First, the freeing after 7 (not 6) years, is only for hebrews. Non-hebrews are slaves for life unless the master decides for himself to set them free.
Second, the turning a hebrew into a slave for life, is when the master gives you a wife and you have children with her (and they'ld all be slaves as well) and you don't want to leave them (because they don't get to leave after 7 years).
Third, I'ld treat you according to biblical regulations. Which includes a permission to beat you as long as you survive a day or two. So the real question is, do you find the biblical regulations "decent"?

You have to put yourself in those times, with those people, with their customs before you can really understand what's what.

God didn't care much for the customs of the amalikites or all the other people who ordered genocide and infantacide against, or did it himself. So why on earth would he care about the "customs" of something as despicable as slavery?

He couldn't find a better way to help the poor and unfortunate, other then enslaving them?

Let's also not forget that non-hebrew slaves didn't exactly have much choice in the matter. They could be bought at the market place and inherited by your children as if they were real-estate.
In fact, the bible literally states that "they are your money".

You can't approach their culture and condemn it because it is not like yours.

But I can approach a so-called benevolent, all powerfull, all knowing god that regulates such primitive barbarian evil practices, instead of just saying "don't do it".

If he can tell you not to eat shrimp, he sure as hell can tell you not to treat people as if they are your private property.

Their society was probably more just and equitable than our own, largely because they had objective morality, be it the scriptures or the Code of Hammurabi. This whole subjective morality is a rather new concept and it's full of about 10 million holes.

"objective morality" that allows slavery, executes homosexuals and forces women to marry their rapists.

I'll pass. I can confidently say that my moral compass is vastly superior to that.
So is yours.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You mean indentured servitude, which lasted only seven years, and which had such strict rules on how the master could treat the servant that it died out because it was economically unfeasible.

That's only for hebrew slaves.

 

[McBell]

You mean indentured servitude, which lasted only seven years, and which had such strict rules on how the master could treat the servant that it died out because it was economically unfeasible.

Now try addressing the part of that post you completely ignored.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's only for hebrew slaves.

Which were the overwhelming majority.

As for prisoners of war, if they found things intolerable, and ran away, Jews were required to give them safe harbor, and NOT return them to their masters.

 

[rrobs]

It's not a loaded question at all. You said 'we all know where it comes from'. I dont.

Then I was wrong. I just thought everybody knew where it came from.

Luke 6:31,

And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
​

Take care.