• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Morality? Right or wrong?

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Because you seem to think that your basis for morality, social good and reason, are going to magically get everyone to agree with you about morality

No. It seems you haven't understood a word of what I've been saying.
This isn't about agreement or "being right". It is about having a moral framework, a methodology of moral evaluation, which an rise above / overcome both cultural and human bias. And that includes my own bias.
Bias, that can potentially cloud ones judgement.


Interestingly in this discussion I actually do think that people have a basic knowledge of right and wrong which has been given to us whether we are atheist or theists or whatever

It's called empathy.
And not all humans have that. Psychopaths, for example, don't. It's in fact in large part what makes them psychopaths.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
That makes no sense, if you know that atheism is simply the lack of faith concerning theistic claims.

Theism is simply the lack of faith concerning the atheist claim.

As history (and the present day also) has shown, it most certainly would not be great if we would all agree on a god belief. Go look at all the theocracies today and in history. Life wasn't exactly "great" then.

There really needs to be a change in people and a real theocracy by the real God and not just humans making laws based on the precepts of a certain God.

Even more interestingly, homosexuality wasn't at all what he was talking about. His case was about monogamy and stability. Homosexuality can be just as monogamous and stable as any heterosexual couple.

I thought it did include increase in homosexual sex, as this would lead to a generally more sexually promiscuous society. Whether having laws against homosexuality lessens that is another question. Those laws certainly have other nasty outcomes in the ways homosexuals have been treated.

It's literally allowed and regulated and condoned in the OT. And the NT doesn't contradict or revoke it at all.
Meaning that the bible indeed condones it, allows it, regulates it. And no point does it say don't do it. Not even a little bit.

Yes in the OT slavery was seen as a way of dealing with pows and as a way of dealing with debts that people incurred etc It way part of the economy and there were rules about how to treat slaves. It is a bit different to the type of slavery that has been practised where countries were raided and people taken and sold into slavery and treated very harshly. Slavery is very common these days also in the sense of owning people and forcing them into work in harsh conditions etc.
Actually these days we make ourselves into slaves to our employers and paying off our debts and buying more. It certainly is a different society these days and rules governing our slavery (working conditions, wages etc) have been fought for by many Christians because of what the Bible teaches us about the value of humans and how to treat each other.

Yes, yes, after 2000 years of christianity, it was christianity that inspired abolition. :rolleyes:
Nevermind the southern opposers who fought to keep slavery while defending their case with a bible.

But the southern opposers amongst others were just justifying their actions with a bible.

I disagree, except perhaps in moral dilemma's while a decision MUST be made.
In all other cases, real consequences can be analysed into a conclusion using real data.
I'm not saying it is always an easy process. I'm not even saying it will always yield the right answer.
What I'm saying, is that it's the best way to go about it, with the least potential of making bad decisions.

Yes real data is certainly good even if it can lead to doing evil so that we end up with a good consequence.

Numbers don't lie though.

True, I wish Governments would go by the long term evidence more.

The "ultimate authority" is reason and evidence. Not a "who".

I hear of rules of engagement even in wars. Who makes the rules of engagement in situations where numbers might say one thing but it means doing something dodgy to achieve the "right" direction? We seem to need always a "who" to decide the morals of things even if the numbers point to something that seems good to some or even most people. Is it a majority rules thing?

This is the point. It matters not what it assumes is best for society.
The question is, can they show how it is best for society? Can a valid case be made for it? Can that case be supported by reason and evidence?
THOSE are the question. The question is not "does this iron age god approve?"

Yes a good case should be argued from the iron age god's pov.

This is the point also. If they have been arrived at with reason and evidence, then you don't need to just "claim" that. Instead, you can show it, demonstrate it.


I doubt that would be the case with all problems society faces. I can point to thousands of aborted babies and the answer is that women want to do whatever with their bodies. Sure there is an argument for both sides and who makes the decision where the line is drawn. Where the rights of one group conflict with the rights of another then it is not just objective reason that comes into play.

Sure. I never said it's easy.
I'm only saying that making bare pronouncements and empty assertions about "absolute authorities" are not the answer. In fact, they are the problem.

In Governing a diverse society with many problems which can be gauged with data then data and reason should be used of course even if it can end up with subjective moral positions making the final choice.
And individual personal moral choices cannot always be just a matter of data without the desires of the individual and moral codes of the individual coming into it.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No. It seems you haven't understood a word of what I've been saying.
This isn't about agreement or "being right". It is about having a moral framework, a methodology of moral evaluation, which an rise above / overcome both cultural and human bias. And that includes my own bias.
Bias, that can potentially cloud ones judgement.

It's called empathy.
And not all humans have that. Psychopaths, for example, don't. It's in fact in large part what makes them psychopaths.

""Pragmatism rejects any form of absolutism and universality of thought. Pragmatism fosters a form of relativism. Pragmatism in ethics rejects the idea that there is any universal ethical principle or universal value. It holds for ethical principles being social constructs to be evaluated in terms of their usefullness.""

I found this quote when I looked up pragmatism as an ethical model. I'm not sure if that is what you are suggesting or not, it sounds like it but you seem to think that pragmatism itself is some sort of absolutism and universality of thought.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Theism is simply the lack of faith concerning the atheist claim.

That makes no sense at all.
Theism is the claim.
Atheism is the rejection of said claim.
Atheism doesn't make claims.


There really needs to be a change in people and a real theocracy by the real God and not just humans making laws based on the precepts of a certain God.

Well, your god is welcome to descent from the clouds to install such a society. Until then though, it's humans that are going to have to do it.

Everything anybody thinks to know about god(s), is based on the words of humans who claimed to have had "revelations" and "divine encounters" and "dreams" and "visions".


I thought it did include increase in homosexual sex, as this would lead to a generally more sexually promiscuous society.

Obviously the dude saw it like that, because of cultural homophobia. But the fact is that his core thesis is based on monogamy and stability. There is no reason why a homosexual relationship can't be monogamous and stable. I know enough married gay couples that do exact that. In fact, my wife's best friends are like that. They've been together some 20 years by now. In fact, I'm having a hard time to come up with any other couple (hetero or otherwise) whose relationship is as monogamous, stable and loving as what they have.


Yes in the OT slavery was seen as a way of dealing with pows and as a way of dealing with debts that people incurred etc


Don't kid yourself. It was full blown slavery. It tells you who you can enslave and from whom you can buy slaves from where.

It way part of the economy and there were rules about how to treat slaves.

Indeed. It for example tells you in detail how you can beat them to the brink of death, as long as they survive for a couple of days, because as it says: "they are your money".

It is a bit different to the type of slavery that has been practised where countries were raided and people taken and sold into slavery and treated very harshly.

Not exactly. It's true that it doesn't say explicitly that they can go and raid countries for the purpose of capturing slaves. Then again, it also doesn't explicitly prohibit that.

It does say that you can by slaves through, and it doesn't say that you can't buy them from people who obtained those slaves by doing exactly that.

Then again, it also says in various stories how they could "keep the virgin girls for themselves" when commanded to go on some genocidal, infanticidal killing spree - like with the amalakites.


Slavery is very common these days also in the sense of owning people and forcing them into work in harsh conditions etc.

Not in the civilized world, it isn't. Today, this only happens in the most brutal of countries, where human rights are a joke.

Actually these days we make ourselves into slaves to our employers and paying off our debts and buying more

Please...........
Let's not go into that silly argument again.
Employees have rights and can quite whenever they want. By no means is employment comparable to slavery. Not even the best kind of slavery you can imagine.

Employees aren't stripped from their rights and freedom. Employees aren't the property of their employers.


It certainly is a different society these days and rules governing our slavery (working conditions, wages etc) have been fought for by many Christians because of what the Bible teaches us about the value of humans and how to treat each other.

Keep telling yourself that.
The fact is that worker rights only really took off when secularism and human rights (by humanists) were common place. For 1800 years of brutal christian rule, exploitation of workers was the norm.

Yes real data is certainly good even if it can lead to doing evil so that we end up with a good consequence.

que?
Typo? If not a typo then that sentence doesn't make much sense to me.
How does doing evil give good consequences?

True, I wish Governments would go by the long term evidence more.

And I wish theistic moral knights would go by evidence, full stop.

I hear of rules of engagement even in wars. Who makes the rules of engagement in situations where numbers might say one thing but it means doing something dodgy to achieve the "right" direction? We seem to need always a "who" to decide the morals of things even if the numbers point to something that seems good to some or even most people. Is it a majority rules thing?

In wars, more often then not it comes down to deciding what is the lesser of two evils.
And history will be the judge.

Take WW2 for example. We could argue about the morality of the Hiroshima nuke till we are blue in the face. But arguing about the morality of the second Nagasaki nuke won't take that long. That was definatly an immoral action. The first nuke already provided shock and awe to both Japan and the world. Japan was on the brink of collapse and ready to surrender. It was only a matter of days. Yet, a second nuke was dropped. This wasn't necessary at all.


Yes a good case should be argued from the iron age god's pov.

That's the thing though.... there is no case to be made from the iron age god's point of view. Because that case is all about appeal to authority and blind unquestionable acceptance thereof. There is no case to be made, there is only "obedience".

Any (valid) case made would have to be dealing with the data and evidence, not with any perceived authority's opinion.

Gods tend to give commandments instead of reasoned arguments.

I doubt that would be the case with all problems society faces. I can point to thousands of aborted babies and the answer is that women want to do whatever with their bodies. Sure there is an argument for both sides and who makes the decision where the line is drawn. Where the rights of one group conflict with the rights of another then it is not just objective reason that comes into play.

I have never heared an actual argument from the "pro-life" side. Instead what they have, are religiously inspired assertions.


In Governing a diverse society with many problems which can be gauged with data then data and reason should be used of course even if it can end up with subjective moral positions making the final choice.
And individual personal moral choices cannot always be just a matter of data without the desires of the individual and moral codes of the individual coming into it.

I'm talking in general. On the level of both governing society as well as individual moral judgement.

The biggest mistake here, is pretending that religious commandments are a "moral code". They aren't. They are just blind obedience to perceived authorities. That's not a moral code. That's the "morality" of psychopaths.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
Theism is simply the lack of faith concerning the atheist claim.
That doesn't make sense. If, theism is like what you said, then theism would be the lack of belief in the lack of belief that a god exist. Even if you were to use strong atheism, the lack of belief that there are no god(s), does not mean it's theism, and/or make you a theist. Lacking in the belief and/or not believing that no god(s) exist says nothing about the belief that a god(s) exist, which is what theism is.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
That doesn't make sense. If, theism is like what you said, then theism would be the lack of belief in the lack of belief that a god exist. Even if you were to use strong atheism, the lack of belief that there are no god(s), does not mean it's theism, and/or make you a theist. Lacking in the belief and/or not believing that no god(s) exist says nothing about the belief that a god(s) exist, which is what theism is.

Yes it probably does not make sense. So much for off the top of the head sarcasm.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Yes it probably does not make sense. So much for off the top of the head sarcasm.
Well, the problem here is a sort of Poe.
Your assertion about theism has been used many many times by theists. Haven't you ever heard some religionist say "I don't have enough Faith to be an atheist!"?
I have.
Lots

Tom
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
That makes no sense at all.
Theism is the claim.
Atheism is the rejection of said claim.
Atheism doesn't make claims.

Yes it probably does not make sense even if the original definition of atheism was that no gods exist.
Theism is certainly a rejection of this claim.
There are of course beliefs which can follow on from our original position of atheism or theism.

Everything anybody thinks to know about god(s), is based on the words of humans who claimed to have had "revelations" and "divine encounters" and "dreams" and "visions".

These Biblical encounters are shown to be true with the prophecies in the Bible having been fulfilled.

Obviously the dude saw it like that, because of cultural homophobia. But the fact is that his core thesis is based on monogamy and stability. There is no reason why a homosexual relationship can't be monogamous and stable. I know enough married gay couples that do exact that. In fact, my wife's best friends are like that. They've been together some 20 years by now. In fact, I'm having a hard time to come up with any other couple (hetero or otherwise) whose relationship is as monogamous, stable and loving as what they have.

Yes I have gay friends who have been in a stable relationship for some time also.

Don't kid yourself. It was full blown slavery. It tells you who you can enslave and from whom you can buy slaves from where.

Yes it was slavery but it was as I said a part of the system of things in those days and an alternative to other things such as prisoner of war camps and overflowing prisons filled with thieves or poverty due to inability to pay debts etc. The stealing of people to sell them as slaves was against the Law.( Exodus 21:16 “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.) 1Timothy 1:10 also speaks against that practice. If a Jew wanted to sell himself to you to pay a debt he was to be treated as a hired person and his slavery was not to go past the year of Jubilee. (it was not a lifetime thing)
Even if you bought a Hebrew slave (who was of course a slave for a good reason) they were to be released after 6 years and given generously to when he left slavery. The slave could even elect to remain a slave after that time if he liked the master and household. There were special laws for female slaves also to protect them. They were wife to the man who purchased them or his son and were to be treated that way and not sold on into prostitution or anything.
There is a law that allowed Hebrews to buy slaves from foreign countries however but even these had laws to protect them.
Certainly different to what we see as allowable in societies but slavery was acceptable in those days and useful for both master and slave in many cases. I think the Mosaic Laws were a step up from any other laws about slavery at the time in other places.
In those days a man owned his children and this seems strange and even wrong to us but we do in a sense own our kids and nobody has the right to take them from us except for mal treatment these days.

Indeed. It for example tells you in detail how you can beat them to the brink of death, as long as they survive for a couple of days, because as it says: "they are your money".

Ex 21:20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

We see that the murderer is to be avenged for the death of the slave. But yes the slave is the man's money and so does not want the slave to be injured and no be able to work. It is recognition that the attack was not meant to murder. This has to be seen in balance with the law that allows slaves to go free for damage received at the hands of their master.
Ex 21:26 “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. 27 If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

Then again, it also says in various stories how they could "keep the virgin girls for themselves" when commanded to go on some genocidal, infanticidal killing spree - like with the amalakites.

The alternative at that time was to kill the Canaanites and wipe them out of the land God was giving the Hebrews. This was also for the good of God's people and because they did not do it and intermarried with the Canaanites and worshipped their gods it ended badly for Israel.

Not in the civilized world, it isn't. Today, this only happens in the most brutal of countries, where human rights are a joke.

In our economic system we become slaves who have to work to pay our debts or have them repossessed. It is a much more "civilised" way of doing things I guess these days.
There are interesting facts and figures about slavery these days however.
https://www.freetheslaves.net/wp-co...ficking-ans-Slavery-Fact-Sheet-April-2018.pdf


Please...........
Let's not go into that silly argument again.
Employees have rights and can quite whenever they want. By no means is employment comparable to slavery. Not even the best kind of slavery you can imagine.

Employees aren't stripped from their rights and freedom. Employees aren't the property of their employers.

There are laws for employees and it took a long time for unions to get them and they are taken away at the drop of a hat by right wing governments,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and really by many left wing governments also who may not have them in the first place.
We are more civilised these days but slavery has served a good purpose at times in history,,,,,,,,,,,and really when I think back I can think of times when I have felt like a slave because of my debts and so lack of freedom to go off and do as I please.
But yes slavery as ownership of a person has been harsh in history also even if the Hebrew version was probably good in comparison to many.

Keep telling yourself that.
The fact is that worker rights only really took off when secularism and human rights (by humanists) were common place. For 1800 years of brutal christian rule, exploitation of workers was the norm.

Different times in history have seen different standards expected of employees but I don't think you could say it was Christian rule. Those who did not treated their neighbour as they would want their neighbour to treat them were certainly going against Christian principles.

que?
Typo? If not a typo then that sentence doesn't make much sense to me.
How does doing evil give good consequences?

Data can point to a certain course of action giving the best results or most desired results but it can be a case of the end justifies the means.

Any (valid) case made would have to be dealing with the data and evidence, not with any perceived authority's opinion.

Gods tend to give commandments instead of reasoned arguments.

Data and evidence are good for determining what is happening and effects of different actions but that does not tell us the rightness or wrongness of the actions.

I have never heared an actual argument from the "pro-life" side. Instead what they have, are religiously inspired assertions.

You means things like taking life is wrong for no good reason or a foetus is a human being because that is what it grows into if fed and protected.
It is good to look at the truth of what a foetus is when making decisions about abortion, instead of arbitrarily deciding when the human life starts.
It is good to have an authoritative rule to work try to live up to when making decisions about abortion also. In this case the rule being that taking human life for no good reason is wrong.

The biggest mistake here, is pretending that religious commandments are a "moral code". They aren't. They are just blind obedience to perceived authorities. That's not a moral code. That's the "morality" of psychopaths.

Usually non psychopaths see the morality in what Jesus had to say to us.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Well, the problem here is a sort of Poe.
Your assertion about theism has been used many many times by theists. Haven't you ever heard some religionist say "I don't have enough Faith to be an atheist!"?
I have.
Lots

Tom

Yes I have heard that and I accept it because it does take faith that the world view of an atheist is true to accept /believe some of the spin offs from that position. (universe came from nothing, universe made itself, dead matter came to life and became conscious, molecules somehow managed to make and store immense amounts of data that can be read and used by other molecules to make living bodies etc )
We can actually believe our world view is correct of course even if part of that world view is the lack of belief in god/s.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
Yes I have heard that and I accept it because it does take faith that the world view of an atheist is true to accept /believe some of the spin offs from that position. (universe came from nothing, universe made itself, dead matter came to life and became conscious, molecules somehow managed to make and store immense amounts of data that can be read and used by other molecules to make living bodies etc )
We can actually believe our world view is correct of course even if part of that world view is the lack of belief in god/s.
So how can you believe that a god exist if you don't have faith that it's possible for a god to exist? You're being irrational and not making sense.
 
Top