Morality of Homosexuality

[Storm]

Was this directed at me, or you suggest this as a new approach to the thread?

Um...that was the original idea of the thread. Justify why you think homosexuality is immoral without using religion. If you use religion, anyone who isn't of your religion is going to disagree with your reasoning. If you can justify it without religion, then even people who aren't of your religion can agree with your reasoning.

What Matt said.

It was directed at you, but applies to everyone.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For example, "Is homosexuality immoral for Christians?"
I would have to answer that yes it is.
Why?
because the Christian God has declared same sex relation a sin.

I think there are a great many Christians who would disagree with that assessment.

 

[TashaN]

No, because mine is right and yours is wrong. But my question is about what you think. Do you think there is any objective morality, or is everyone entitled to think whatever they want about it, and all are equally valid?

It depends in the society itself and how they define their morality.

For me, the first thing which comes to my mind is God's condemnation for sodomy, etc. But, if you want to talk about any other reason than religion, i can say stuff which i can't back up with any evidence but just my word for it and how i look at it, because it will be according to the place i been raised at, which is totally different than yours. Would you like to know more?

 

[Storm]

I think there are a great many Christians who would disagree with that assessment.

I know quite a few, personally.

 

[Storm]

It depends in the society itself and how they define their morality.

For me, the first thing which comes to my mind is God's condemnation for sodomy, etc. But, if you want to talk about any other reason than religion, i can say stuff which i can't back up with any evidence but just my word for it and how i look at it, because it will be according to the place i been raised at, which is totally different than yours. Would you like to know more?

You don't need evidence. You need a reason that makes sense to other people.

 

[TashaN]

I think there are a great many Christians who would disagree with that assessment.

But i think Christianity itself will have to agree.

 

[TashaN]

You don't need evidence. You need a reason that makes sense to other people.

OK, to me, i think the natural process in this life is for a male and a female to live together in order for our kind to survive, and because that how a life is being born into this life. Note that, this was the reason for human beings to get married in the first place. I believe that, while homosexuality have been there since ages, but that doesn't make it right. I think i can understand the love relationship homosexuals might engage into, but if you want to talk about morality so that would definitely be irrelevant.

Also, i think a male homosexual "for instance" is not a man in the complete sense, because being a man is different than just being a male. Though you might not understand this one because i'm from the middle east and we see masculinity differently than those in the West.

These are just few of what i have in mind for now.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But i think Christianity itself will have to agree.

Why?

And keep in mind that there's more to Christianity than "mainstream" American Protestantism that usually gets the most press.

Really, the only thing I can see as common to all denominations of Christianity is the belief in Jesus Christ as saviour. When Christianity as a whole can't even agree on whether or not Jesus is God, I don't think we can make blanket statements about Christianity's position on lesser theological issues.

 

[TashaN]

Why?

And keep in mind that there's more to Christianity than "mainstream" American Protestantism that usually gets the most press.

Really, the only thing I can see as common to all denominations of Christianity is the belief in Jesus Christ as saviour. When Christianity as a whole can't even agree on whether or not Jesus is God, I don't think we can make blanket statements about Christianity's position on lesser theological issues.

At least they agree about what the OT says about sodomy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

At least they agree about what the OT says about sodomy.

But they don't agree on what the NT says about the OT, or how to regard the Bible generally.

Edit: In terms of practical application, I think you'd find that the common point of agreement between all Christians on the topic would be that at some point, centuries before Christ, the Jews viewed sodomy as prohibited by God. It would be a matter of some debate whether it was actually prohibited by God, whether it was prohibited for all people or only the Jews, and if it was prohibited then, whether it is now.

 

[Storm]

OK, to me, i think the natural process in this life is for a male and a female to live together in order for our kind to survive, and because that how a life is being born into this life.

No one is denying that heterosexuality is A natural thing. However, if you're going to claim that homosexuality is UNnatural, you're going to have to give us more than this.

Note that, this was the reason for human beings to get married in the first place.

No, marriage is cultural recognition of more instinctive pair-bonding, which sexual minorities do just as much as their more mainstream counterparts. Now explain why we shouldn't have the same cultural recognition.

I believe that, while homosexuality have been there since ages, but that doesn't make it right.

We know that. However, you've yet to provide any basis for it being wrong.

I think i can understand the love relationship homosexuals might engage into, but if you want to talk about morality so that would definitely be irrelevant.

How is love irrelevant to morality? Is it not among our chief virtues?

Also, i think a male homosexual "for instance" is not a man in the complete sense, because being a man is different than just being a male. Though you might not understand this one because i'm from the middle east and we see masculinity differently than those in the West.

I'm sorry, but that's just bigotry.

 

[SERVANTOFSET]

Though you might not understand this one because i'm from the middle east and we see masculinity differently than those in the West.

Do you class the Sultan of Oman as a man?

 

[TashaN]

No one is denying that heterosexuality is A natural thing. However, if you're going to claim that homosexuality is UNnatural, you're going to have to give us more than this.

UNnatural in the sense that it doesn't have the same value, a hetrosexual relationship has.

No, marriage is cultural recognition of more instinctive pair-bonding, which sexual minorities do just as much as their more mainstream counterparts. Now explain why we shouldn't have the same cultural recognition.

I'll put for you like this, if the entire world became homosexuals so life will end there, unlike how it been, as a hetrosexual one. It's not about culture, but about life. If your parents were two males or two females i don't think you would have posted in RF. This is not enough?

We know that. However, you've yet to provide any basis for it being wrong.

I did, above.

How is love irrelevant to morality? Is it not among our chief virtues?

There are many types of love, and many types of love might not be as moral as others. Take the love between siblings or a mother and her son for instance in the sexual sense of course.

I'm sorry, but that's just bigotry.

If you will call it so then i don't need to explain more my stance in masculinity unless you tried to understand where i'm coming from based on my background which is alien to you.

 

[TashaN]

But they don't agree on what the NT says about the OT, or how to regard the Bible generally.

Edit: In terms of practical application, I think you'd find that the common point of agreement between all Christians on the topic would be that at some point, centuries before Christ, the Jews viewed sodomy as prohibited by God. It would be a matter of some debate whether it was actually prohibited by God, whether it was prohibited for all people or only the Jews, and if it was prohibited then, whether it is now.

I agree.

Do you class the Sultan of Oman as a man?

If the rumors about him were true, then the answer is no.

 

[Tau]

Who cares what these bigoted religious types say...

They are a dying breed, let them sing their swansong...

They are not worth the energy it takes to post replies.

Their opinions are ridiculous and vile...let them embarrass themselves..just laugh at them.

Let their stupid comments serve as a reminder of what it is like to be a bigot with no mind.

We will laugh last, we laugh longest.

 

[Storm]

UNnatural in the sense that it doesn't have the same value, a hetrosexual relationship has.

You keep saying that, but you never say WHY.

I'll put for you like this, if the entire world became homosexuals so life will end there, unlike how it been, as a hetrosexual one. It's not about culture, but about life. If your parents were two males or two females i don't think you would have posted in RF. This is not enough?

No, it isn't. For one thing, it's completely ridiculous. Nobody is advocating that straights should go queer. We're advocating EQUALITY, especially under the law.

The same argument could be applied saying males are immoral. After all, if everyone were male, life would end, too. Do you see now why this is not a good argument?

I did, above.

Insufficient.

There are many types of love, and many types of love might not be as moral as others. Take the love between siblings or a mother and her son for instance in the sexual sense of course.

But that's not love, it's abuse. It harms.

If you will call it so then i don't need to explain more my stance in masculinity unless you tried to understand where i'm coming from based on my background which is alien to you.

Explain how it's NOT bigoted to say a gay man isn't really a man.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'll put for you like this, if the entire world became homosexuals so life will end there, unlike how it been, as a hetrosexual one. It's not about culture, but about life. If your parents were two males or two females i don't think you would have posted in RF. This is not enough?

No, it's not, because it's absurd.

I'm sorry, but this argument drives me bonkers. It applies just as equally to all sorts of traits: if everyone on Earth were male, life would end. If everyone on earth were firefighters, we'd die because nobody would be left to feed us. This doesn't create any moral implications for being male or for pursuing a career in firefighting, so I don't see why it should for homosexuality.

Also, there's no Earthly reason to assume that something carried to an unreasonable extreme implies anything about that thing at more moderate levels. In high enough doses, many medications will kill a patient; does this mean that it's wrong to give them small doses that can help them?

On top of this, the argument doesn't apply just to homosexuality, but to any human trait that would preclude breeding. Is it immoral to, say, take a religious vow of chastity, or to simply decide not to have children? These things are generally socially acceptable, but they have the same implications for offspring that homosexuality would.

 

[Tau]

Lets turn the tables, lets persecute them, so they can see how it feels....

Time to launch a crusade, wipe out God, Allah and Jesus from the face of the Earth....lets do it.

 

[Sunstone]

Come on folks, remember there are good people on both sides of this debate, and please act accordingly.

 

[Tau]

Come on folks, remember there are good people on both sides of this debate, and please act accordingly.

Sick of hearing it Sunstone, if they want a war....

If not they can shut the hell up and let people live their lives....

Plus there are no good bigots.....