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Moral Relativists

Soeldner

Member
I only discuss it because it's interesting.

Hmm. I don't know if I believe that. We've had some posts back and forth, some of which your sarcasm would indicate a personal vestment in the discussion, the belies this seemingly unattached sentiment you are expressing. However, who knows you best, besides yourself? Can't argue with that :)

So, you aren't promoting what you believe with counter argument... you are just doing it for the sake of the useless banter in it self? But I guess, technically, every thing in the world is useless, so you can do no less, right?
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
One of the basic foundations. The "self evident" things to those who explore deeply (not exactly self evident to those who swallow their cultural beliefs). If you want to get very metaphysical, God's nature. Any thing "evil' is counter to God's nature.
OK,
If you want to leave the realm of reality, and enter the metaphysical.
Which God? And Why?
 

Soeldner

Member
While there are numerous hypotheses, God's nature is unknown.

Right, I can prove that as much as the next guy, which is why I stated it was my "opinion." As in a claim based on correlative evidence (not necessarily causal. I can't prove that).
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Right, I can prove that as much as the next guy, which is why I stated it was my "opinion." As in a claim based on correlative evidence (not necessarily causal. I can't prove that).
You didn't, at least not in the post I quoted.
 

Soeldner

Member
OK,
If you want to leave the realm of reality, and enter the metaphysical.
Which God? And Why?

I don't think the metaphysical leaves reality. Maybe certain set of physical reality, not existence as a whole. Reality is the set of everything (arguing semantics).

As you can see my religion is Christian, so naturally the judeo-christian God. I could go in to why I became an agnostic while I was in college and why became a Christian later in my life, however, the reasons are so numerous it would require either another thread or personal correspondence to enumerate them all.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
I don't think the metaphysical leaves reality. Maybe certain set of physical reality, not existence as a whole. Reality is the set of everything (arguing semantics).

As you can see my religion is Christian, so naturally the judeo-christian God. I could go in to why I became an agnostic while I was in college and why became a Christian later in my life, however, the reasons are so numerous it would require either another thread or personal correspondence to enumerate them all.
But you posit that morality is dependent on God.
I do not want to know why you are a Christian.
I want to know why morality is dependent on the Christan God. Even though this is counter to anthropological research.
 

Soeldner

Member
But you posit that morality is dependent on God.
I do not want to know why you are a Christian.
I want to know why morality is dependent on the Christan God. Even though this is counter to anthropological research.

Which anthropological research? There is a lot of it.

I can't explain it with any tools you would find valid (though, I don't know what is necessary valid for the metaphysical). First I became a Christian after a certain amount of rational precepts, then I began to believe in the only thing, IMO, that addresses the metaphysical accurately once this changed occur: the bible. I can't use this to prove it to you as I find it unlikely you find the bible to be valid (Not all the concepts, but it is the cornerstone for the reasoning). Hence, in order for me to prove to you a lot of my precepts are correct, you'd have to believe the bible is an accurate metaphor of the metaphysical.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
An observation that is surrounded by assumptions, which makes it a stance. You can not definitively say morality is not rational. There may be some observations that correlate to this, but lack of rationality is not necessarily the causality. Therefore that is a claim, not an observation.

There are no assumptions made. Cultures have different moral values.

By disagreeing you state that all cultures are the same.

Wow, now that is a bold claim. I disagree with this fundamentally. You've learned every single culture? That's amazing. Also, every single anthropologist on the planet? When I get home, I'll go ahead and get one of my resources I've been reading and prove that incorrect

We don't call them different cultures when they are the same, now do we?

I disagree. I believe it is a philosophical question. Some one's beliefs are not the same thing as the definite system of right and wrong. Peoples understanding and beliefs can be skewed by the society they live in, but just because there are differing opinions based on culture does not destroy the validity of absolutism. Truth exists outside of culture even if that culture skews that individual's beliefs/the truth.

Of course there is a philosophical question. I told you the attempt to turn my observations, very common ones made all the time by many people, is not a philosophical observation.

If there were no rational ground for absolutism, then there wouldn't be ongoing debates. In fact, the majority of the "founding fathers of philosophy", upon which the majority of philosphers base their propositions (including the modernists that have shaped your understanding), claimed philosophy is needed in order to help those to distinguish what is correct from what is wrong. I find it hard to believe that any thing is so "obvious."

We are talking about relativism as opposed to universalism. I may have mistakenly said absolutism before myself. Anyway, this line is getting far afield of a very simple question. Of which.......

As stated, skewed belief is outside of the true moral framework. Just because some beliefs are not correct, does not invalidate the framework itself. Emotions are not necessarily guide lines to right or wrong. A sociopath feels no remorse, it doesn't mean that morality no longer exists. It's not dependent upon the individual.

This has nothing to do with the questions I asked. Whose beliefs are you saying are incorrect? Who is talking about emotions?

Given that two societies have different moral values, who is right? Why is this question so difficult?
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Which anthropological research? There is a lot of it.

I can't explain it with any tools you would find valid (though, I don't know what is necessary valid for the metaphysical). First I became a Christian after a certain amount of rational precepts, then I began to believe in the only thing, IMO, that addresses the metaphysical accurately once this changed occur: the bible. I can't use this to prove it to you as I find it unlikely you find the bible to be valid (Not all the concepts, but it is the cornerstone for the reasoning). Hence, in order for me to prove to you a lot of my precepts are correct, you'd have to believe the bible is an accurate metaphor of the metaphysical.

As I find reveled revelations to be inaccurate sources for sociological and anthropological research on cultures outside of the realm of the revelation, I will have to respectfully disagree with your assessments of cultural morality.
 

Soeldner

Member
hehe. Miscommunication, galore.
There are no assumptions made. Cultures have different moral values.

Yes, I wasn't disagreeing with that. I was disagreeing with the statement that morality was not rational, which you said was simply an observation. I agree that some cultures have differences in what they perceive to be moral.

We are talking about relativism as opposed to universalism. I may have mistakenly said absolutism before myself. Anyway, this line is getting far afield of a very simple question. Of which.......

Good call on the choice of words. Universalism is a more accurate definition.

This has nothing to do with the questions I asked. Whose beliefs are you saying are incorrect? Who is talking about emotions?

Given that two societies have different moral values, who is right? Why is this question so difficult?

Sorry, I figured my answer implied the outright declaration of which side is correct. The society who destroys an individual's freedom to a certain form of pleasure is incorrect (female circumcision). Free will/freedom is a universal moral concept that is absolute and correct.
 

Soeldner

Member
We don't call them different cultures when they are the same, now do we?

Culture is a broad thing. Different cultures can have commonalities. You are equating things way too high level. It's like saying all linear equations are the same... they are in certain aspects, but the details are completely different (and the composite of these details can lead to many changes within the system i.e. singular/nonsingular, etc).
 

Soeldner

Member
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Life has become increasingly busier for me (Job, Masters, personal projects) and thus, I must redraw from these boards for quite a while (I can hear the collective hurrah). However, before I go I would like for my viewpoint to be a little more explicitly explained as I don't think I have really represented it very clearly as I've listened and debated other's opinions.
I was going to give a large explanation with examples and personal experience, but I've recently come across a book that has already put it more succinctly and eloquently than I can.
. Thus, I will be using quotes from C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity.


1. Morality is merely instinct that raised the fitness level of the individuals enough so that their community survived.
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"For example, some people wrote to me saying, "isn't what you call the Moral Law simply our herd instinct and hasn't it been developed just like all our other instincts?" Now I do not deny that we may have a herd instinct: but that is not what I mean by the Moral Law. We all know what it feels like to be prompted by instinct - by mother love, or sexual instinct, or the instinct for food. It means that you feel a strong want or desire to act in a certain way. And, of course, we sometimes do feel just that sort of desire to help another person: and no doubt that desire is due to the herd instinct. But feeling a desire to help is quite different from feeling that you ought to help whether you want to or not. Supposing you hear a cry for help from a man in danger. You will probably feel two desires -- one a desire to give help (due to your herd instinct), the other a desire to keep out of danger (due to the instinct for self-preservation). But you will find inside you, in addition to these two impulses, a third thing which tells you that you ought to folow the impulse to help, and suppress the impulse to run away. Now this thing that judges between two instincts, that decides which should be encouraged, cannot itself be either of them. You might as well say that the sheet of music which tells you, at a given moment, to play one note on the piano and not another, is itself one of the notes on the keyboard. The Moral Law tells us the tune we have to play: our instincts are merely the keys.
Another way of seeing that the moral law is not simply one of our instincts is this. If two instincts are in conflict, and there is nothing in a creature's mind except those two instincts, obviously the stronger of the two must win. But at those moments when we are most conscious of the Moral Law, it usally seems to be telling us to side with the weaker of the two impulses. You probably WANT to be safe much more than you want to help the man who is drowning: but the Moral Law tells you to help him all the same. And surely it often tells us to try to make the right impulse stronger than it naturally is? I mean, we often feel it our duty to stimulate the herd instinct, by waking up our imaginations and arousing our pity and so on, so as to get up enough steam for doing the right thing. But clearly we are not acting FROM instinct when we set about making an instinct stronger than it is. The thing that says to you, 'Your herd instinct is asleep. Wake it up,' canot itself BE the herd instinct. The thing that tells you which note on the piano needs to be played louder cannot itself be that note.
Here is a third way of seeing it. If the Moral Law was one of our instincts, we ought to be able to point to some one impulse inside us which was always what we call 'good,' always in agreement with thte rule of right behaviour. But you cannot. There is none of our impulses which th e Moral Law may not sometimes tell us to suppress, and none which it may not sometimes tell us to encourage. It is a mistake to think that some of our impulses - say mother love or patriotism - are good, and others, like sex or the fighting instinct, are bad. All we mean is that the occasions on which the fighting instinct or the sexual desire need to be restrained are rather more frequent than those for restraining mother love or patriotism. But there are situations in which it is the duty of a married man to encourage his sexual impulse and of a soldier to encourage the fighting instinct. There are also occasions on which a mother's love for her own children or a man's love for his own country have to be suppressed or they will lead to unfairness towards other people's children or countries. Strictly speaking, there are no such things as good and bad impulses. Think once again of a piano. It has not got two kinds of notes on it, the 'right' notes and 'wrong' ones. Every single note is right at one time and wrong at another. The Moral Law is not any one instinct or set of instincts: it is something which makes a kind of turne ( the tune we call goodness or right conduct) by directing the instincts."


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2. Anthropology attests to the fact that all morals are different on a culture to culture basis, therefore culture defines morals.
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"I know that some people say the idea of a Law of Nature or decent behaviour known to all men is unsound, because different civilisations and different ages have had quite different moralities. But this is not true. There have been differences between their moralities, but these have never amounted to anything like a total difference. If anyone will take the trouble to compare the moral teaching of, say, the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Hindus, Chinese, Greeks and Romans, what will really strike him will be how very like they are to each other and to our own. Some of the evidence for this I have put together in the appendix of another book called The Abolition of Man; but for our present purpose I need only ask the reader to think what a totally different morality would mean. Think of a country where people were admired for running away in battle, or where a man felt proud of double-crossing all the people who had been kindest to him. You might just as well try to imagine a country where two and two made five. Men have differed as regards what people you ought to be unselfish to - whether it was only your own family, or your fellow countrymen, or every one. But they have always agreed that you ought not to put yourself first. Selfishness has never been admired. Men have differed as to whether you should have one wife or four. But they have always agreed that you must not simply have any woman you liked."
 

Soeldner

Member
The Abolition of Man appendix:

1. The Law of General Beneficence
(a) negative

'I have not slain men.' (Ancient Egyptian. From the Confession of the Righteous Soul, 'Book of the Dead'. v. Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics [=ERE], vol. v, p.478)

'Do not murder.' (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:13)

'Terrify not men or God will terrify thee.' (Ancient Egyptian. Precepts of Ptahhetep. H. R. Hall, Ancient History of the Near East, p. 133n)

'In Nastrond (=Hell) I saw ... murderers.' (Old Norse. Volospa 38,39).

'I have not brought misery upon my fellows. I have not made the beginning of every day laborious in the sight of him who worked for me.' (Ancient Egyptian. Confession fo the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 478)

'I have not been grasping.' (Ancient Egyptian. Ibid.)

'Who meditates oppression, his dwelling is overturned.' (Babylonian. Hymn to Samas. ERE v. 445).

'He who is cruel and calumnious has the character of a cat.' (Hindu. Laws of Manu. Janet, Histoire de la Science Politique, vol. i,p. 6).

'Slander not.' (Babylonian. Hymn to Samas. ERE v. 445).

'Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.' (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:16)

'Utter not a word by which anyone could be wounded.' (Hindu. Janet, p.7)

'Has he... driven an honest man from his family? broken up a well cemented clan?' (Babylonian. List of Sins from incantation tablets. ERE v. 446).

'I have not caused hunger. I have not caused weeping.' (Ancient Egyptian. ERE v. 478).

'Never do to others what you would not like them to do to you.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects of Confucius, trans. A. Waley, xv. 23; cf. xii. 2)

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There is a positive, but it would take me forever to give all the references. I'll just give one more section and then call it quits. The appendix in its entirety can be googled.

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5. The Law of Justice

(b) Honesty

'Has he drawn false boundaries?' (Babylonian. List of Sins. ERE v. 446)

'To wrong, to rob, to cause to be robbed.' (Babylonian. Ibid.)

'I have not stolen.' (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 478)

'Thou shalt not steal.' (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:15)

'Choose loss rather than shameful gains.' (Greek. Chilon Fr. 10. Diels)

'Justice is the settled and permanent intention of rendering to each man his rights.' (Roman. Justinian, Institutions, I. i)

'If the native made a "find" of any kind (e.g. a honey tree) and marked it, it was thereafter safe for him, as far as his own tribesmen were concerned, no matter how long he left it.' (Australian Aborigines. ERE v. 441)

'The first point of justice is that none shoudl do any mischief to another unless he has frst been attacked by the other's wrongdoing. The second is that a man should treat common property as common perperty, and private property as his own. There is no such thing as private property by nature, but things have become private either through prior occupation (as when men of old came into empty territory) or by conquest, or law, or agreement, or stipulation, or casting lots.' (Roman. Cicero, De Off. I.vii)

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The claim that all anthropologists agree that morality is simply based on culture as there are very few similarities between them is, I believe, fallacious, as many of their beliefs correspond to a common base as can be seen through some of these documents. Though their beliefs can skew the truth, which makes it seem like their morality is unique, it doesn't mean the truth is not there. It is shown in glimpses that peek through the hypocritical scatterings of selfish ambition and deceit.
The commonalities that so many believe don't exist until they actually start reading the fine print can be overwhelming. But don't take my word for it, read as many credible sources as you can on the subject and see if you come to a different conclusion.

Anyways, I won't be replying to any rebuttals as, like I said, I have to devote more time to other things that are becoming more persistent. However, It's been nice debating with you all. I've appreciated each of your perspectives and pray that you find truth in your existential conquests.

God bless.
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gnomon

Well-Known Member
Who said that anthropologists claimed that all morality is derived from culture or that different cultures do not share some moral viewpoints.

Not I nor anyone else.

Using a couple of moral absolutes about stealing and murder hardly proves any point at all. Morality is far broader and you have to take into account the punishment meted out for those offenses in different cultures, the marriage customs of different cultures, the role of women, the role of men, views towards sexuality and gender, how children were raised. ancestors were treated, etc.

To claim that one culture holds the "truth" while others skew it is little more than xenophobic.
 
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