Mis-translated Bible terms infavor of meat eating?

[bhaktajan]

“The important Hebrew term nefesh chaya (“living soul&#8221 was applied to animals as well as people (Genesis 1:21 and 1:24).
G-d even made treaties with animals as well as with people (Genesis 9:9, 10; Hosea 2:20).
Judaism has beautiful and powerful teachings with regard to showing compassion to animals.”
Richard H. Schwartz, Ph.D.

“Jewish values are served by a vegetarian diet, especially in view of the many problems related to factory-farming. Rather than rejecting Torah values, Jewish vegetarians are challenging the Jewish community to apply precisely these values to their everyday diets. We are respectfully challenging Jews to live up to Judaism’s splendid teachings. It is not enough that a religion should have beautiful teachings; it is essential that these teachings be put into practice.”
Richard H. Schwartz, Ph.D.

“Rabbi Yochanan stated ‘Jerusalem was destroyed because the residents limited their decisions to the letter of the law of the Torah, and did not perform actions that would have gone beyond the letter of the law’ ('lifnim meshurat hadin') (Baba Metzia 30b). In the same way, perhaps, many people state that they eat meat because Jewish law does not forbid it. Vegetarians believe that in this time of factory farming, environmental threats, widespread hunger, and epidemics of chronic degenerative diseases, Jews should go beyond the strict letter of the law and move toward vegetarianism.”
Richard H. Schwartz, Ph.D.

“The great spiritual leader and first Chief Rabbi of Palestine, Rabbi Abraham Kook, famously wrote,
‘hayashan yithadesh, v’hehadash yitkadesh, the old shall be made new, and the new shall be made holy’.
In this spirit, the practice of eco-kashrut seeks to build upon the reverence for life that is central to Judaism’s dietary laws by testing our consumption against the four-part test of bal tashchit (excessive waste and environmental impact), tsa’ar ba’alei chayim (cruelty to animals), shmirat haguf (health) and oshek (labor exploitation).

All indicators point to a vegetarian diet as the highest expression of an eco-kashrut ethic.”
Rabbi Barry Schwartz

“Jews will move increasingly to vegetarianism out of their own deepening knowledge of what their tradition commands...
Man's carnivorous nature is not taken for granted or praised in the fundamental teachings of Judaism...
A whole galaxy of central rabbinic and spiritual leaders...has been affirming vegetarianism as the ultimate meaning of Jewish moral teaching.”
Rabbi Isaac Ha-Levi Herzog,
Former Chief Rabbi of Israel

“The vegetarian mitzvah includes many of the other mitzvot, both religious and secular, in one.
As Hillel says: ‘Do not do unto others what is hateful unto you. All the rest is commentary’.
Vegetarianism offers respect to one’s body and spirit, to our community, to the animals, to workers, to our environment, and to the world, thereby creating the conditions for healthy people, healthy spirits, healthy communities, and a healthy Earth to live in peace. Do a mitzvah—choose vegetarian!”
Dan Brook, Ph.D.

“No other creature should lose the joy of living on our account.”
1945 Reconstructionist Prayer Book [Siddur]

“It is not your responsibility to complete the task [of perfecting the world],
but neither are you free from engaging in it.”
Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot [Ethics of Our Sages] 2:21

 

[Harmonious]

bhaktajan, many of the arguments you brought are filled with nonsense and complete misreads of verses and other important Jewish legal texts.

If you are truly interested in authentic learning that is in support of Jewish vegetarianism, I suggest you look into the works of Rav Abraham Isaac Kook.

I believe A Vision of Vegetarianism and Peace is useful. I knew many Rabbis in Israel who followed his teachings, and they were in fact vegetarian, according to his teachings.

What you have offered is NOT compelling, and if you would like, I'll go through it point by point. (I'd prefer not to.) But genuine Jewish vegetarianism can be learned about via Rav Kook.

 

[ninerbuff]

I hope more people go vegan. Then meat won't be so mass produced, and the quality will get better.

 

[Harmonious]

I hope more people go vegan. Then meat won't be so mass produced, and the quality will get better.

Just so you know... Kosher meat ISN'T mass produced.

 

[bhaktajan]

My speculation is the God himself designed this menus to feed the contractors on the seventh day:
Pizza, falafell, knish, hummus, ice cream & donuts . . . and Hot sauce like at New Jeruselum Resturant.​

bhaktajan, many of the arguments you brought are filled with nonsense and complete misreads

What you have offered is NOT compelling

Sorry but this time you haven't a leg to stand on ---figuratively speaking:

I am already quoting Rabbi Kook and his colleagues.

Are you going to argue with the Rebbes?
[If so, I'll stand to the side and take bets.]​

Here is the link that I posted . . . but it didn't appear to be a "Link":​

Link below:

Jewish Vegetarianism​

:Link above

I have more than a 10 testimonies here brother, all the rabbes you could want to host a feast:​

“It [eating meat] is an overall moral shortcoming of [hu]mankind, in that it does not promote good and lofty sentiments”​

Rav Abraham Isaac ha-Cohen Kook (1865-1935), 1st Chief Rabbi of Pre-State Israel, Hazon ha-Tzimhonut ve-ha-Shalom me-Behinah Toranit​

“Aside from the cruelty, rage and fury in killing animals, and the fact that it teaches human beings the bad trait of shedding blood for naught;

eating the flesh even of select animals will yet give rise to a mean and insensitive soul.”​

Rabbi Joseph Albo, c. 1380-1444

“The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Moses: Eating meat is not essential to one’s nutrition; rather, it is a matter of gluttony, of filling one’s belly and of increasing one's lust. Meat also gives rise in human beings to a cruel and evil temperament. .... Therefore the Holy One, blessed be He, did not tell Moses that He would give the Israelites meat, rather bread, which is a fitting food and essential for the human temperament.”​

Don Isaac Abarbanel (1437-1508), commentary on Exodus 16:4

“There is no question that the Torah’s ideal is vegetarianism.”
Rabbi Bonnie Koppell

“I am a vegetarian precisely because I am a believing Jew who strives to live in accordance with the ethical teachings of my heritage….
I believe that if you follow the most sublime and noble values in our tradition, in this day and age, then there is an imperative to live a vegetarian lifestyle. … It is a halachic imperative.
Compassion for animals is a halachic imperative. And being responsible also for your environment and for your globe, which also have ramifications coming out of the whole question of the meat industry and meat consumption, are all fundamental Jewish questions.
So I, simply put, am a vegetarian because I am a religious Jew.”
Rabbi David Rosen, former Chief Rabbi of Ireland

“There is plenty in the Torah that resonates with vegetarianism. God says to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, ‘I give you all these plants and fruits to eat.’ Eating meat doesn’t come up. I find that the way I eat is in keeping with my Jewish practice…I don’t think Judaism tells you ‘you have to be a vegetarian’, but there is a whole variety of clues in the literature that tell us it is a good thing.”

Rabbi David Small​

“Vegetarianism is a response to today’s world... Meat-eating, like polygamy, fit into an earlier stage of human history.”​

Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi

“And God said to Noah and to his sons with him, ‘I now establish My covenant with you and your offspring to come, and with every living thing that is with you—birds, cattle, and every wild beast as well— all that have come out of the ark, every living thing on Earth…”​

Genesis 9:8-10 (the first covenant in the Torah, which suggests that animals also have souls and rights as they are included in this covenant)​

“I became a vegetarian … after serious studies of the book of Genesis, particularly the earliest chapters.”
Rabbi Stephen Fuchs

“When you slaughter a creature, you slaughter God.”
Isaac Bashevis Singer, Yiddish author and Nobel Prize laureate

 

[Harmonious]

You are going to make me do it.

I'll do it. It will take time, but I'll do it.

 

[Harmonious]

My speculation is the God himself designed this menus to feed the contractors on the seventh day:
Pizza, falafell, knish, hummus, ice cream & donuts.

But that is my Speculation.

I could even get behind that. Maybe.

Jewish Vegetarianism
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

I'll go through, bit by bit, and explain certain things. I might even agree with certain things. But I will definitely call on the carpet things that are out of context.

Consider these words of the prophets, the spokesmen of God:
What I want is mercy, not sacrifice. (Hos. 6:6)

Yup. God wants people to be merciful to FELLOW HUMANS, not sacrifices that are brought with no repentance to go along with it.

To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me?" sayeth the Lord. "I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs or of he-goats...bring no more vain oblations.... Your new moon and your appointed feasts my soul hateth;...and when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood. (Isa. 1:11-16)

As I said, in my very first post in this thread, this wasn't against eating meat, as much as it was a statement against bringing offerings but ignoring justice to fellow humans.

I hate, I despise your feasts, and I will take no delight in your solemn assemblies. Yea, though you offer me burnt-offerings and your meal offerings, I will not accept them neither will I regard the peace-offerings of your fat beasts. Take thou away from me the noise of thy song; and let Me not hear the melody of thy psalteries. But let justice well up as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. (Amos 5:21-4)

In its context, it is not against the SACRIFICES that GOD HIMSELF commanded. It is against the fact that people were treating each other badly, and showing how "righteous" they were being by bringing offerings, as if that was going to make things better.

Context, context, context.

Deeds of compassion and kindness toward all creation are of greater significance to God than sacrifices: "To do charity and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice" (Prov. 21: 3).

This is true. If a Jew had to pick to choose to follow only ONE commandment, the commandment centered on charity and/or justice would trump the sacrifice. But if both could be accomplished... God DID command both.

 

[bhaktajan]

You are going to make me do it.

I'll do it. It will take time, but I'll do it.

Yes let us take a sabbatical. And return sometime later.

mazel ve barouch,
Bhaktajan

 

[Harmonious]

Myths & Realities Regarding Judaism & Vegetarianism:
Eighteen Reasons Jews Think They Should Not Be Vegetarians (And Why They Are Wrong) by Richard H. Schwartz

1) Myth: The Torah teaches that humans are granted dominion over animals (Genesis 1:26), giving us a warrant to treat animals in any way we wish.

For the record, there is no myth that states that we can treat animals "any way we wish." There are extensive sections of law that explain how animals are to be treated.

If we have pets, they are to be fed before the humans in the household eat. We can't knowingly cause them pain. There are all kinds of ways and means that Jews are supposed to deal kindly with animals.

Now to deal with what this fellow has to say about the matter...

Reality: Jewish tradition interprets “dominion” as guardianship, or stewardship: we are called upon to be co-workers with God in improving the world. Dominion does not mean that people have the right to wantonly exploit animals, and it certainly does not permit us to breed animals and treat them as machines designed solely to meet human needs.

Interesting. Not correct, but interesting.

Then again, I imagine that simply based on our world view, bhaktajan, you and I would already differ about the concept of "wantonly exploiting animals." Treating them kindly until it is time to kill them would, in MY understanding, NOT be "wanton exploitation". I understand that killing them at ALL may, in fact, BE "wanton exploitation" to you. And, I assume, the author of this particular article.

In A Vision of Vegetarianism and Peace, Rav Kook states: “There can be no doubt in the mind of any intelligent person that [the Divine empowerment of humanity to derive benefit from nature] does not mean the domination of a harsh ruler, who afflicts his people and servants merely to satisfy his whim and desire, according to the crookedness of his heart. It is unthinkable that the Divine Law would impose such a decree of servitude, sealed for all eternity, upon the world of God, Who is ‘good to all, and His mercy is upon all His works’ (Psalms 145:9).” This view is reinforced by the fact that immediately after God gave humankind dominion over animals (Genesis 1:26), He prescribed vegetarian foods as the diet for humans (Genesis 1:29).

Yup. Well done.

But harsh treatment and ethical treatment are already going to have vastly different meanings from you and this author to what I believe. And while I have the deepest respect for Rav Kook, there are other very worthy Rabbis whose teachings I follow more closely.

2) Myth: The Torah teaches that only people are created in the Divine Image, meaning that God places far less value on animals.

No one would have said that God doesn't value animals. The fact is that humans and animals are in two distinctly different categories. They don't have the same "value," if you will.

God values them such that he commanded humanity to not be cruel. Humans were given permission to kill and eat them, but not to tear limbs from living animals. If humans want to eat meat, they have to make sure it is dead first, and humans (not just Jews) were commanded not to eat blood.

Animals are not equal to humans, but animals aren't to be considered less when it comes to pain.

Response: While the Torah states that only human beings are created “in the Divine Image” (Genesis 5:1), animals are also God’s creatures, possessing sensitivity and the capacity for feeling pain.

That's what I just said.

God is concerned that they are protected and treated with compassion and justice. In fact, the Jewish sages state that to be “created in the Divine Image”, means that people have the capacity to emulate the Divine compassion for all creatures. “As God is compassionate,” they teach, “so you should be compassionate.”

Very good.

However, the way the author presents the myth is that humans and animals are not thought to be equal, but they really are.

The understanding that is normative to Judaism is that while animals are NOT equal to people, they are to be dealt with consideration and compassion, while they live.

3) Myth: Inconsistent with Judaism, vegetarians elevate animals to a level equal to or greater than that of people.

Reality: Vegetarians’ concern for animals and their refusal to treat animals cruelly does not mean that vegetarians regard animals as being equal to people. There are many reasons for being vegetarian other than consideration for animals, including concerns about human health, ecological threats, and the plight of hungry people.

I was with him, until here.

Because humans are capable of imagination, rationality, empathy, compassion, and moral choice, we should strive to end the unbelievably cruel conditions under which farm animals are currently raised. This is an issue of sensitivity, not an assertion of equality with the animal kingdom.

I imagine that the author here is speaking about the non-Jewish meat industry.

Places where kosher animals are raised, the animals have to be treated with care. If they are in pain, discomfort, or in any way injured, the animals cease to be kosher, even if the slaughter is done in accordance with strict regulation.

As such, it behooves Jewish farmers (among other reasons) to treat animals kindly, keeping them healthy, free, and pain-free.

4) Myth: Vegetarianism places greater priority on animal rights than on the many problems related to human welfare.

Reality: Vegetarian diets are not beneficial only to animals. They improve human health, help conserve food and other resources, and put less strain on endangered ecosystems. In view of the many threats related to today’s livestock agriculture (such as deforestation and global climate change), working to promote vegetarianism may be the most important action thatt one can take for global sustainability.

Interesting. I'm not sure I believe this one. At all.

 

[Harmonious]

5) Myth: By putting vegetarian values ahead of Jewish teachings, vegetarians are, in effect, creating a new religion with values contrary to Jewish teachings.

Reality: Jewish vegetarians are not placing so-called “vegetarian values” above Torah principles but are challenging the Jewish community to apply Judaism’s splendid teachings at every level of our daily lives. Vegetarians argue that Jewish teachings that we must treat animals with compassion, guard our health, share with hungry people, protect the environment, conserve resources, and seek peace, are all best applied through vegetarian diets.

Jews who are NOT vegetarians say that we must treat animals with compassion, guard our health, share with hungry people, protect the environment, conserve resources, and seek peace. And a vegetarian diet is not necessary to do all of that.

6) Myth: Jews must eat meat on Shabbat and Yom Tov (Jewish holidays).

I wouldn't say that it is so much of a "must" as much as a well-ingrained custom, especially because of the various holiday offerings that were brought to the Temple.

Reality: According to the Talmud (T.B. Pesachim 109a), since the destruction of the Temple, Jews are not required to eat meat in order to rejoice on sacred occasions. This view is reinforced in the works Re**** Chochmah and Kerem Shlomo and Rabbi Chizkiah Medini's Sdei Chemed, which cites many classical sources on the subject.

Yup. It isn't required, but it is a strong custom that many Jews have, as eating meat and drinking wine are pleasurable, and that is part of celebrating Shabbat and the holidays. And many Jews eat meat on the holidays in remembrance of the Temple.

There are a LOT of reasons that Jews eat meat on Shabbat and Yom Tov.

Several Israeli chief rabbis, including Shlomo Goren, late Ashkenazic Chief Rabbi of Israel, Jonathan Sacks, Chief Rabbi of the British Commonwealth, and Shear Yashuv Cohen, Ashkenazic Chief Rabbi of Haifa, have been or are strict vegetarians.

Well and good. And there are many MORE rabbis who are NOT vegetarians.

7) Myth: The Torah mandated that Jews eat korban Pesach and other korbanot (sacrifices).

That ISN'T a myth. Jews ARE mandated to eat these things.

Reality: The great Jewish philosopher Maimonides believed that God permitted sacrifices as a concession to the common mode of worship in Biblical times. It was felt that had Moses not instituted the sacrifices, his mission would have failed and Judaism might have disappeared.

This is false. Especially because MOSES did not institute any of these things. GOD commanded them, and Moses delivered God's word. Maimonides would have known that.

Even if that is what Maimonides might have mentioned in his philosophical works (which I'd like to see where he had said so), in Maimonides' codification of Jewish law, the commandment is still there to eat the Korban Pesach and other Korbanot.

The Jewish philosopher Abarbanel reinforced Maimonides’ position by citing a midrash (Rabbinic teaching) that indicates God tolerated the sacrifices because the Israelites had become accustomed to sacrifices in Egypt, but that He commanded they be offered only in one central sanctuary in order to wean the Jews from idolatrous practices.

Again, I'd like to see his sources.

I've learned from the Abarbanel, and that isn't part of what I learned.

8) Myth: Jews historically have had many problems with some animal rights groups, which have often opposed shechita (ritual slaughter) and advocated its abolishment.

Only in America, if at all.

Reality: Jews should consider switching to vegetarianism not because of the views of animal rights groups, whether they are hostile to Judaism or not, but because it is the diet most consistent with Jewish teachings.

Not buying this.

It is the Torah, not animal rights groups, which is the basis for observing how far current animal treatment has strayed from fundamental Jewish values. As Samson Raphael Hirsch stated: “Here you are faced with God’s teaching, which obliges you not only to refrain from inflicting unnecessary pain on any animal, but to help and, when you can, to lessen the pain whenever you see an animal suffering, even through no fault of yours.”

Yes, we are supposed to refrain from inflicting unnecessary pain. Such things is not part of the routine of a Kosher slaughter house.

The author of this essay has conveniently not bothered to focus on what Jews do as a matter of course, but rather focus on his vegetarianism. Convenient.

9) Myth: The restrictions of shechita minimize the pain to animals in the slaughtering process, and thus fulfill Jewish laws on proper treatment of animals.

That ISN'T a myth.

Reality: This ignores the cruel treatment of animals on “factory farms” in the many months prior to slaughter. Can we ignore the force-feeding of huge amounts of grain to ducks and geese to produce foie gras,

Which isn't kosher, so it would not be part of a Jewish issue.

the removal of calves from their mothers shortly after birth to raise them for veal,

Not permitted to be done by Jews

the killing of over 250 million male chicks immediately after birth at egg-laying hatcheries in the U.S. annually,

Which has WHAT to do with Jewish farmers who do things in a Kosher way?

By the way, baby chickens are often part of a Mediterranean menu, so they have to be treated properly in order to be slaughtered to make THEM kosher.

the placing of hens in cages so small that they can't raise even one wing, and the many other horrors of modern factory farming?

Jews are not permitted to "factory farm."

But this has escaped the attention of the author of this article.

 

[Harmonious]

As I've gone through a lot of the sources, I recognize that some of them refer to words of Jews who are not at all religious. Why are we going to take the words of Franz Kafka as an authority on Jewish law and philosophy?

You've cited him at least twice.

Women Rabbis, by the very fact that they ARE women rabbis, are already ignoring large portions of Jewish law. (I'm knowledgeable, but I'm not a Rabbi.)

Many of the sources that you cite are interesting reading, but are not anything more than "These Jews say it, so it must be so."

I'm not going to entertain these ideas.

It is clear that many of your sources are not valid, and just because they are available on the Internet does not make them valid as understanding of Jewish law or philosophy.

If there is anything you want me to address, I will.

I will NOT answer the whole barrage of sources, many of which are meaningless.

(I sought to, but I changed my mind.)

 

[Harmonious]

Sorry but this time you haven't a leg to stand on ---figuratively speaking:

I am already quoting Rabbi Kook and his colleagues.​

I didn't say you didn't.

Are you going to argue with the Rebbes?

[If so, I'll stand to the side and take bets.]

No, but you should understand that there are LOTS of Rabbis in the world who are NOT vegetarian.

And who made you the authority on which are better to listen to than others?

I was trying to be helpful. You are a spiteful such-and-such.

I'm not sure why I bothered taking you off ignore.
​

I have more than a 10 testimonies here brother, all the rabbes you could want to host a feast:

“It [eating meat] is an overall moral shortcoming of [hu]mankind, in that it does not promote good and lofty sentiments”​

Rav Abraham Isaac ha-Cohen Kook (1865-1935), 1st Chief Rabbi of Pre-State Israel, Hazon ha-Tzimhonut ve-ha-Shalom me-Behinah Toranit​

It's a beautiful thing.

And do you really want me to seek out every last Rabbi who insists on meat and wine at every Shabbat meal and holiday feast?

I won't - there would be far too many.

“Aside from the cruelty, rage and fury in killing animals, and the fact that it teaches human beings the bad trait of shedding blood for naught;

eating the flesh even of select animals will yet give rise to a mean and insensitive soul.”​

Rabbi Joseph Albo, c. 1380-1444

“The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Moses: Eating meat is not essential to one’s nutrition; rather, it is a matter of gluttony, of filling one’s belly and of increasing one's lust. Meat also gives rise in human beings to a cruel and evil temperament. .... Therefore the Holy One, blessed be He, did not tell Moses that He would give the Israelites meat, rather bread, which is a fitting food and essential for the human temperament.”​

Don Isaac Abarbanel (1437-1508), commentary on Exodus 16:4

Good on ya.

“There is no question that the Torah’s ideal is vegetarianism.”
Rabbi Bonnie Koppell

Meaningless to me.

“I am a vegetarian precisely because I am a believing Jew who strives to live in accordance with the ethical teachings of my heritage….
I believe that if you follow the most sublime and noble values in our tradition, in this day and age, then there is an imperative to live a vegetarian lifestyle. … It is a halachic imperative.
Compassion for animals is a halachic imperative. And being responsible also for your environment and for your globe, which also have ramifications coming out of the whole question of the meat industry and meat consumption, are all fundamental Jewish questions.
So I, simply put, am a vegetarian because I am a religious Jew.”
Rabbi David Rosen, former Chief Rabbi of Ireland

Interesting.

“There is plenty in the Torah that resonates with vegetarianism. God says to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, ‘I give you all these plants and fruits to eat.’ Eating meat doesn’t come up. I find that the way I eat is in keeping with my Jewish practice…I don’t think Judaism tells you ‘you have to be a vegetarian’, but there is a whole variety of clues in the literature that tell us it is a good thing.”

Rabbi David Small
​

I'm sure he did, but I have no idea who he is.
​

“Vegetarianism is a response to today’s world... Meat-eating, like polygamy, fit into an earlier stage of human history.”​

Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi

I'm sure he said so. Again, I have no idea who he is.

“And God said to Noah and to his sons with him, ‘I now establish My covenant with you and your offspring to come, and with every living thing that is with you—birds, cattle, and every wild beast as well— all that have come out of the ark, every living thing on Earth…”​

Genesis 9:8-10 (the first covenant in the Torah, which suggests that animals also have souls and rights as they are included in this covenant)​

Yes - the covenant that God will never again destroy the entire world, particularly with a flood.

Not that animals have rights beyond permission to live pain-free lives. Until they are used for food, clothing, parchment, and otherwise.

“I became a vegetarian … after serious studies of the book of Genesis, particularly the earliest chapters.”
Rabbi Stephen Fuchs

Not sure who he is.

“When you slaughter a creature, you slaughter God.”
Isaac Bashevis Singer, Yiddish author and Nobel Prize laureate

Good to know. However, while he was an interesting author, he isn't necessarily a Torah authority.

 

[Levite]

bhaktajan, many of the arguments you brought are filled with nonsense and complete misreads of verses and other important Jewish legal texts.

If you are truly interested in authentic learning that is in support of Jewish vegetarianism, I suggest you look into the works of Rav Abraham Isaac Kook.

I believe A Vision of Vegetarianism and Peace is useful. I knew many Rabbis in Israel who followed his teachings, and they were in fact vegetarian, according to his teachings.

What you have offered is NOT compelling, and if you would like, I'll go through it point by point. (I'd prefer not to.) But genuine Jewish vegetarianism can be learned about via Rav Kook.

I've seen Richard Schwartz's stuff on Jewish vegetarianism. He bases some of his key ideas on Rav Kook, which is good; but he has a terrible penchant for taking things out of context, misrepresenting what people have said, and even using questionable translations to support his points. I have actually studied with four or five of the rabbis he cites as supporting universal vegetarianism, and they actually do not hold any such thing. Only one of the ones that I know personally, for that matter, is even a vegetarian himself.

There is no doubt that some Jewish scholarly authorities have, historically, concluded that the primal ideal of humanity was ethical vegetarianism-- and a couple have been quite strident on the notion-- but the majority of the main stream of Rabbinic tradition simply has not come to the same conclusions, and even among those scholars who did come to such a conclusion, all expressly permitted the eating of meat by those who wished to do so, provided all the laws of kashrut were being followed.

What is a much more supportable claim might be that the Jewish tradition supports moderation in the consumption of meat (and other rich or resource-intensive foods), and generally supports environmental cleanliness and ethicality in the production of food (among other things).

But the idea that Judaism, or Torah, advocates universal vegetarianism is simply insupportable. Biblical Judaism absolutely required the consumption of meat from time to time, and Rabbinic Judaism, while not requiring it, favors it heavily. There is no prohibition in Rabbinic Judaism against vegetarianism, and there are ready precedents available to support those who wish to be vegetarians. But there is simply no adequate precedent to postulate that God actively desires all of us to be vegetarians, or that there is anything wrong with eating meat-- provided that the meat comes from kosher animals, raised ethically, and slaughtered and treated properly according the the halakhah.

 

[Harmonious]

I've seen Richard Schwartz's stuff on Jewish vegetarianism. He bases some of his key ideas on Rav Kook, which is good; but he has a terrible penchant for taking things out of context, misrepresenting what people have said, and even using questionable translations to support his points. I have actually studied with four or five of the rabbis he cites as supporting universal vegetarianism, and they actually do not hold any such thing. Only one of the ones that I know personally, for that matter, is even a vegetarian himself.

There is no doubt that some Jewish scholarly authorities have, historically, concluded that the primal ideal of humanity was ethical vegetarianism-- and a couple have been quite strident on the notion-- but the majority of the main stream of Rabbinic tradition simply has not come to the same conclusions, and even among those scholars who did come to such a conclusion, all expressly permitted the eating of meat by those who wished to do so, provided all the laws of kashrut were being followed.

What is a much more supportable claim might be that the Jewish tradition supports moderation in the consumption of meat (and other rich or resource-intensive foods), and generally supports environmental cleanliness and ethicality in the production of food (among other things).

But the idea that Judaism, or Torah, adocates universal vegetarianism is simply insupportable. Biblical Judaism absolutely required the consumption of meat from time to time, and Rabbinic Judaism, while not requiring it, favors it heavily. There is no prohibition in Rabbinic Judaism against vegetarianism, and there are ready precedents available to support those who wish to be vegetarians. But there is simply no adequate precedent to postulate that God actively desires all of us to be vegetarians, or that there is anything wrong with eating meat-- provided that the meat comes from kosher animals, raised ethically, and slaughtered and treated properly according the the halakhah.

Thank you.

 

[bhaktajan]

This is a copy of pages from the Book Holy Cow by Steven Rosen.

It explores the debate of the terminology used in the bible and IMO, by extension, the ethomology (word root origins) of the printed word and it's pre-biblical origin etc etc.

 

[bhaktajan]

followed by this page:

 

[bhaktajan]

Followed by this page:

 

[PhAA]

Ahm, being a lazy student, I find it hard reading long posts.lol What's the argument here? It's good/bad to eat meat or something?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

*sigh*

 

[bhaktajan]

Bhaktajan echos the expert studies:

“Resturant robberies Statistics
have a common denoumenator; and,
crimes specifically aimed at
the fast-food segment are not readily available.”

Reference:
http://securitysolutions.com/mag/security_security_fast_food/

Excerpt:
Nationwide statistics about crimes specifically aimed at the fast-food segment are not readily available. News of a robbery is never good publicity for a store or its neighborhood.

“There is considerable reluctance within the industry to share what they are doing, or what they have experienced, due to fear of potential liability lawsuits,” says Dick Moe of Dick Moe and Associates, where after 20 years in the restaurant security industry, Moe now serves as publisher of the monthly newsletter of the National Food Service Security Council (NFSSC), in cooperation with the National Council of Chain Restaurants and the National Retail Federation. He admits statistics are difficult to locate, and advocates the need for a clearinghouse of information. “It would be useful to have a database to look at for trends,” he says.

However, according to the CrimeDoctor Web site, the U.S. Department of Justice reports that in 1998, robberies accounted for losses estimated at nearly $446 million. “The weapon of choice for robbers is the firearm (38 percent), with knives or cutting instruments second (9 percent). Robbers like to use surprise, and an extreme show of force to get victims to comply with their demands,” the report notes.

“Crime in quick-service restaurants is a serious problem,” said NFSSC executive director Terrie Dort in an interview for NBC's Inside Edition. “But then, crime is a national problem, a major problem for all of society.”
Recently, a group of teenagers surrounded a car as it waited in the drive-through lane of a San Diego-area Del Taco restaurant at 9:30 p.m. Inside the vehicle, two young men sat, stunned, as the windshield was smashed and they were attacked.
The week before, also in San Diego, a man pulled up to a Wendy's drive-through window and pointed a gun at the clerk, demanding money. He drove away with $500, and luckily the clerk was not harmed.
What are the solutions? McGoey advises evaluation of the entire operation.

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Resturant robberies Statistics --- See Footnote #85:
Fast Food Nation: The Dark Side of ... - Google Books

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General:
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_rob-crime-robbery

Bhaktajan’s last statement:
“The conconminant factor that must be viewed via the above stats is the Location- Location- Location” of these businesses and thus the demographics of those affected neighborhoods. IOW, high-crime and junk-food [aka, mafia-food stuffs; aka, fake foodstuffs] go hand-in-hand with each other.