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Military spending; necessary?
- Thread starter jarofthoughts
- Start date
Wirey
Fartist
Norway! We'll all be driving Fjords!
Wirey
Fartist
Yes. Just look at the spectacular job they're doing in Syria.
I stand by my original statement that the US is the reason the world isn't a cesspool of tinpot dictators.
Shuddhasattva
Well-Known Member
Yeah, instead it's a septic tank where the biggest turd has floated to the top.
Wirey
Fartist
That's unfair. The US has problems, no doubt. But they also have a reputation for being at heart a peaceful people. Name one place that the US has occupied where the lot of the average guy just trying to go to work and feed his family was made worse by their presence. I'll guarantee you that the vast bulk of Syrians, Iranians, North Koreans, and a whole host of others would have no problem living under the Yanks.
Shuddhasattva
Well-Known Member
Americans, peaceful? Really? Come now, let's do some research as to American military history and occupations, to say nothing of all the proxy wars in the cold war.
Wirey
Fartist
Name every war of aggression the US has ever launched. The second Iraq war is the only one I can think of. There's a large difference between brinkmanship and killing for the hell of it.
How many people live in a democracy today because the US stopped someone who was taking that right from them?
:angel2:
Shuddhasattva
Well-Known Member
Let's see here...
The Western expansion into Native land and that nominally claimed by the European powers.
The War of 1812 to large degree, which you should know as a Canadian.
The war against Mexico
The Philippines - a brutal occupation if there ever was one, followed by Puerto Rico and Guam, as the US extends itself as an imperial naval power.
Multiple invasions/occupations of Cuba, Nicaragua, Honduras, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Guatemala, Panama, Mexico & Colombia.
Vietnam (Gulf of Tonkin? Really?)
The first Iraq war, after the Iraqi army had already been repulsed from Kuwait.
The Afghan war.
And again, to say nothing of proxy wars.
How many people don't live in a democracy because the US supports its dictator-allies and overthrows unaligned democracies? How many live in a farce of democracy that the US has imposed, that is not really a democracy at all, but based on the most shallow ideas of negative freedom and crude population control.
Do you think US citizens live in a democracy even?
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Wirey
Fartist
I can see we're a mile apart on this one. To characterize the War of 1812 as a war of agression on the part of the US is a stretch. The British were urinating on them pretty hard. I think you've made up your mind that the US is evil, and nothing will change that point of view. The line about US citizens living in a democracy a few years after they elected a black president kind of summed it up for me. I like you, and I'd rather not fight with you, so you win. The US should disband it's military. Taiwan might want to beef up theirs, though.
Shuddhasattva
Well-Known Member
To characterize the War of 1812 as a war of agression on the part of the US is a stretch.
I took care to characterize it with 'to a large degree.' It wasn't purely aggressive.
I hold dual citizenship - Canadian and American. I'm more familiar with American history than I am Canadian, but the usual Canadian account of 1812 has America as the aggressor, and with justification.
Yes, the Brits were ******* on the Americans. Yes, there were legitimate reasons for war, but they were hardly the only reasons.
My not inconsiderable knowledge of US history, particularly of its transgressions, causes me to believe that the US government doesn't represent the interests of the people, and behaves in an essentially evil way especially as regards those who don't vote for it, and have little stake in Western economic life - the people of the third world.
What would change that POV is the government reforming its ways.
The US can hardly defend Taiwan to begin with. I don't think the US should disband the military, it should make the military: A) more oriented around international aid, and B) more defensive in nature, and much smaller.
This won't happen though, not with a 3 billion dollar a day addiction to feed.
I took care to characterize it with 'to a large degree.' It wasn't purely aggressive.
I hold dual citizenship - Canadian and American. I'm more familiar with American history than I am Canadian, but the usual Canadian account of 1812 has America as the aggressor, and with justification.
Yes, the Brits were ******* on the Americans. Yes, there were legitimate reasons for war, but they were hardly the only reasons.
My not inconsiderable knowledge of US history, particularly of its transgressions, causes me to believe that the US government doesn't represent the interests of the people, and behaves in an essentially evil way especially as regards those who don't vote for it, and have little stake in Western economic life - the people of the third world.
What would change that POV is the government reforming its ways.
Widespread racial tolerance, a good thing, does not a democracy make. You know, and I know, and everyone knows, that money and media coverage drive politics. We are effectively living in a representational plutocracy, only the monied elite has representation in national politics, and most state level politics. Only at the community level is any democracy really manifest in American society now.
.
The US can hardly defend Taiwan to begin with. I don't think the US should disband the military, it should make the military: A) more oriented around international aid, and B) more defensive in nature, and much smaller.
This won't happen though, not with a 3 billion dollar a day addiction to feed.
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Sir Doom
Cooler than most of you
I disagree with the designation that we are the 'world police' I think that if we actually were the 'world police' then other nations would cut us a quite a bit more slack than they do and would welcome the sight of our flag approaching their shores.
We are not the champions of freedom we pretend to be. We are the champions of capitalism first, democracy second, and freedom as a distant third. Which is completely backwards in my opinion. Why do we say we invaded Iraq to liberate the Iraqi people but at the same time stay out of Congo because its not in our national interest? The Iraqis (despite Saddam's despotic rule) where not really that bad off as far as human rights go. Especially compared to many countries in this world that we would never dream of helping due to their lack of strategic, economic and political gain. Its two-faced. This is why the world shakes their collective head at us. All of this military might and we use it like a mob enforcer.
We are not the champions of freedom we pretend to be. We are the champions of capitalism first, democracy second, and freedom as a distant third. Which is completely backwards in my opinion. Why do we say we invaded Iraq to liberate the Iraqi people but at the same time stay out of Congo because its not in our national interest? The Iraqis (despite Saddam's despotic rule) where not really that bad off as far as human rights go. Especially compared to many countries in this world that we would never dream of helping due to their lack of strategic, economic and political gain. Its two-faced. This is why the world shakes their collective head at us. All of this military might and we use it like a mob enforcer.
I have to take issue with "democracy second," Sir Doom. Autocrats and military regimes are much easier to deal with than democracies. Historically we've opposed democratic movements and backed the right wing in our foreign relations. We install puppets who oppress their own people to produce cheap imports.Sir Doom said:
I think the U.S. should maintain a powerful military, but the amount that we spend is completely unreasonable, imo. Especially when there are thirteen-figure budget deficits, and Congress still doesn't want to cut the military spending.
Use the military for homeland defense, or in defense of allies if they actually want it and need it. No adventurism.
Use the military for homeland defense, or in defense of allies if they actually want it and need it. No adventurism.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Excluding the ones we have in our pocket or placed into power ourselves.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Switzerland.
Wouldn't the National Guard and Coast guard be sufficient for national defence, though? We've got The Bomb, for Heaven's sake. Opponents might take irritating swipes at us, but nobody's going to risk really ******* us off and risk getting blown back to the stone age.
Even without the bomb, didn't a rag-tag crew of goat herders in Afghanistan manage to oust an already entrenched Soviet Union?
We've got allies to the North and South, and moats on the East and West. Our only enemies are those we created ourselves with our meddling. We don't need a massive military.
We're using our military to project power and maintain empire, not for defense. Let's give up the empire, reform the UN and let them ensure world peace -- as they were formed to do in the first place.
Even without the bomb, didn't a rag-tag crew of goat herders in Afghanistan manage to oust an already entrenched Soviet Union?
We've got allies to the North and South, and moats on the East and West. Our only enemies are those we created ourselves with our meddling. We don't need a massive military.
We're using our military to project power and maintain empire, not for defense. Let's give up the empire, reform the UN and let them ensure world peace -- as they were formed to do in the first place.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Now take that number and compare it to the number of countries that wanted said democracy.
The US consistently foments revolution, disrupts or fixes elections, overthrows democratically elected leaders, or even invades to install co-operative dictatorships. These, then, skim off the country's wealth, sharing it with the US, and maintain the masses as an impoverished work force.
Read your history. We are a world empire. We're democratic or benevolent only when it's in our economic interest to be so.
Read your history. We are a world empire. We're democratic or benevolent only when it's in our economic interest to be so.