Micah 5:1

[Tumah]

Tumah,
As per your "judges" of the Talmud, God through Isaiah gave a message.

Isaiah 1:26 NAS "Then I will restore your judges as at the first, And your counselors as at the beginning ; After that you will be called the city of righteousness, A faithful city."

Yes, we are also awaiting the time for our judges to return to their previous status. Then the Law will be carried out according to the way G-d commanded. Rather than the way it is now, where we are bound to the secular laws.

Isaiah 40:23 NAS He it is who reduces rulers to nothing, Who makes the judges of the earth meaningless.[/B]

I see that you are trying to say that the Sages of the Talmud are those judges. The problem is that to say this you must be willing to say all judges are made meaningless and that includes the Judges from Scriptures. This would be rather odd, therefore it must not mean all judges, but certain judges. Maybe you have some proof it means those that arbitrate in the Talmud?

As per the wisdom of your wise judges, God through Isaiah says:

Isaiah 29:14 NAS Therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous ; And the wisdom of their wise men will perish, And the discernment of their discerning men will be concealed."

And of course since the way wisdom is lost is by wise men dying, we learn that the death of our Sages is worse than all the curses of Deuteronomy 28. Over there is only says "marvelous" once. Over here it says it twice.

As for the NT authors, for the most part, 2/3 of it, was written by a self professed prophet of the tribe of Benjamin, and his associates. His message is that of his own, and given the position of that of coming from God, whereas it is of men. Something on the order of the Talmud with respect to God's Word.

There were many self-professed prophets. In fact there still are many today. obviously, professing to be a prophet of G-d, does not mean that G-d's Word is indeed in one's mouth.

The Sages of the Talmud, on the other hand, don't profess to be something they are not. They only teach what they were taught and rule how they were taught to rule from their Teachers before them, all the way back to Moses.

I can understand why that might be a hard pill for you to swallow. Christianity is built on reformation after reformation. Every other week someone gets up and yells, "GUYS WE'RE DOING IT WRONG" and BOOM another Christian denomination.

As for the destroyers of Ezekial, they do not have free reign to kill who they want, they must kill all without the mark, "including old men, young men, maidens, little children and women".

Ez 9:5, "do not let your eye have pity, and do not spare"

That is the free-reign, you're quoting there. The only thing preventing the Destroyer from killing everyone is that mark. That means, it doesn't matter whether one is righteous or not. It matters whether one has the mark or not. Otherwise, the mark would be unnecessary.

As for Is 45:7, God created both good and evil, for that was the Law that creation was based upon. You cannot have good without evil, sweet without sour, or positive without negative. Yet one is to choose good over evil.

You are saying "created", but the verse says, "creates/creating". It is constant, in the present. G-d is creating evil right now.

How can it be true that you can't have good without evil? Do you mean G-d isn't good? Or do you mean that G-d's existence is contingent on evil's existence?

And no, I am not concerned about your spiritual well being, men will be judged by a judge "who will not judge by what his eyes see, nor make a decision by what his ears hear;, but with righteousness" (Is 11:3) Like you, I just like to have a lively discourse.

great.

 

[2ndpillar]

Talmuh wrote: Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
Isaiah 40:23 NAS He it is who reduces rulers to nothing, Who makes the judges of the earth meaningless.[/b]

I see that you are trying to say that the Sages of the Talmud are those judges. The problem is that to say this you must be willing to say all judges are made meaningless and that includes the Judges from Scriptures. This would be rather odd, therefore it must not mean all judges, but certain judges. Maybe you have some proof it means those that arbitrate in the Talmud?

Talmuh,
The quote is to "the judges of the earth". That would be the judges from traffic court, to the Supreme court, to the Talmuh court, are "meaningless" (Is 56:11). As for a good example of the meaning with respect to Judah, go to Isaiah 3:12," Those who guide you lead you astray, and confuse the direction of your paths." This is directed to Judah and Jerusalem, which has recently been restored (Joel 3:2), but also applies to the whole of the earth. As for the significance with respect to today. The nations now surround Jerusalem(Ze 14:2 & Psalms 83:4) and conspire to "wipe" out "Israel". As we now have a blood moon on Passover next week (Joel 2:31), which happened in 1948, and 1967, one might be a little more attentive to the meanings of what the prophets are saying, and less to what the judges are saying they are saying.

 

[2ndpillar]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
As for the destroyers of Ezekial, they do not have free reign to kill who they want, they must kill all without the mark, "including old men, young men, maidens, little children and women".

Ez 9:5, "do not let your eye have pity, and do not spare"

Tumah wrote: That is the free-reign, you're quoting there. The only thing preventing the Destroyer from killing everyone is that mark. That means, it doesn't matter whether one is righteous or not. It matters whether one has the mark or not. Otherwise, the mark would be unnecessary.

Tumah,
Those with the "mark" are the righteous. One is not righteous because they are children or woman or old men, but because they "groaned over the abominations"

 

[Tumah]

Talmuh,
The quote is to "the judges of the earth". That would be the judges from traffic court, to the Supreme court, to the Talmuh court, are "meaningless" (Is 56:11). As for a good example of the meaning with respect to Judah, go to Isaiah 3:12," Those who guide you lead you astray, and confuse the direction of your paths." This is directed to Judah and Jerusalem, which has recently been restored (Joel 3:2), but also applies to the whole of the earth. As for the significance with respect to today. The nations now surround Jerusalem(Ze 14:2 & Psalms 83:4) and conspire to "wipe" out "Israel". As we now have a blood moon on Passover next week (Joel 2:31), which happened in 1948, and 1967, one might be a little more attentive to the meanings of what the prophets are saying, and less to what the judges are saying they are saying.

It is unclear to me how you are defining "judges of the earth" here to not include the Judges of the book of Judges.

Tumah,
Those with the "mark" are the righteous. One is not righteous because they are children or woman or old men, but because they "groaned over the abominations"

If being righteous was in itself enough to be saved from the Destroyer, there would be no need for the mark.

 

[2ndpillar]

It is unclear to me how you are defining "judges of the earth" here to not include the Judges of the book of Judges.


If being righteous was in itself enough to be saved from the Destroyer, there would be no need for the mark.

Tumah,
It does include the judges who wrote the Talmud, and the judges who judge what the judges wrote. Basically, it all comes to what the "Preacher" said in Ecclesiastes, "all is vanity", "the conclusion, when all has been heard, is fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person." (Ecc 12:13)

It was the "man clothed in linen" who did the marking (Ez 9:3-4 & Is 11:3-4). He was the one who judged the righteousness of the "men who groan". The destroyers, the "six men ..each with shattering weapon, simply passed by those with the mark, and they made no judgment, nor were they allowed to.

 

[Tumah]

Tumah,
It does include the judges who wrote the Talmud, and the judges who judge what the judges wrote. Basically, it all comes to what the "Preacher" said in Ecclesiastes, "all is vanity", "the conclusion, when all has been heard, is fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person." (Ecc 12:13)

It was the "man clothed in linen" who did the marking (Ez 9:3-4 & Is 11:3-4). He was the one who judged the righteousness of the "men who groan". The destroyers, the "six men ..each with shattering weapon, simply passed by those with the mark, and they made no judgment, nor were they allowed to.

It kind of seems like you are trying to avoid my questions.
If the judges that are rendered meaningless includes those whom you call the "judges of the Talmud," then where does the verse distinguish between them and the Biblical judges?

If righteousness was enough to save one form the Destroyer, then what need was there for the mark?

 

[2ndpillar]

It kind of seems like you are trying to avoid my questions.

1. If the judges that are rendered meaningless includes those whom you call the "judges of the Talmud," then where does the verse distinguish between them and the Biblical judges?

2. If righteousness was enough to save one form the Destroyer, then what need was there for the mark?

Tumah,

1. I don't understand your question. The "biblical judges" would be the "judges as at first". They judged Israel with righteous judgments, not with regards to some written precedent, as will be restored as in Isaiah 11:3.

Isaiah 1:26 NAS "Then I will restore your judges as at the first, And your counselors as at the beginning ; After that you will be called the city of righteousness, A faithful city."

2. The destroyers were not judges, and were disallowed from even showing pity (Ez 9:5), it was "man clothed in linen who marked the men "who groan and sigh over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst." Without the mark, the destroyers would have destroyed everyone, but they would start with the "elders".(Ex 9:6)

Isaiah 11:3-4,"And He will delight in the fear of the LORD, And He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear ; 4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth ; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.

 

[Tumah]

Tumah,

1. I don't understand your question. The "biblical judges" would be the "judges as at first". They judged Israel with righteous judgments, not with regards to some written precedent, as will be restored as in Isaiah 11:3.

Isaiah 1:26 NAS "Then I will restore your judges as at the first, And your counselors as at the beginning ; After that you will be called the city of righteousness, A faithful city."

So you agree Isaiah 40:23 is not referring to all judges. There are exclusions. So now how are you proving that the Talmudic "judges" are not in the exclusion list along with the Biblical judges?

2. The destroyers were not judges, and were disallowed from even showing pity (Ez 9:5), it was "man clothed in linen who marked the men "who groan and sigh over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst." Without the mark, the destroyers would have destroyed everyone, but they would start with the "elders".(Ex 9:6)

Isaiah 11:3-4,"And He will delight in the fear of the LORD, And He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear ; 4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth ; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.

That's what I've been saying this whole time. When the Destroyer is given the go-ahead, he go after everyone, righteous or not.

 

[2ndpillar]

So you agree Isaiah 40:23 is not referring to all

1. judges. There are exclusions. So now how are you proving that the Talmudic "judges" are not in the exclusion list along with the Biblical judges?

2. That's what I've been saying this whole time. When the Destroyer is given the go-ahead, he go after everyone, righteous or not.

Tumah,

1. Isaiah 1:26 NAS "Then I will restore your judges as at the first, And your counselors as at the beginning ; After that you will be called the city of righteousness, A faithful city."

Isaiah 11:3-4,"And He will delight in the fear of the LORD, And He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear ; 4 But with righteousness

At the time of Isaiah 1:26, the judges and the counselors were in need of being restored. And the restoration will be in the image of Isaiah 11:3-4, whereas they will "not make a decision by what his eyes see, nor a decision by what his ears hear, but with righteousness". Reading or listening to the Talmud is not the way the restored judges will operate. The judges will be as the judges of old, such as Solomon, and David, and will be have the Spirit of God with them to give righteous judgments.

2. The destroyers have no authority at all, they have to strike everyone without the mark. The righteous are the ones who groan over the abominations, and it is they who are marked. The destroyers cannot strike the righteous.

 

[Tumah]

Tumah,

1. Isaiah 1:26 NAS "Then I will restore your judges as at the first, And your counselors as at the beginning ; After that you will be called the city of righteousness, A faithful city."

Isaiah 11:3-4,"And He will delight in the fear of the LORD, And He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear ; 4 But with righteousness

At the time of Isaiah 1:26, the judges and the counselors were in need of being restored. And the restoration will be in the image of Isaiah 11:3-4, whereas they will "not make a decision by what his eyes see, nor a decision by what his ears hear, but with righteousness". Reading or listening to the Talmud is not the way the restored judges will operate. The judges will be as the judges of old, such as Solomon, and David, and will be have the Spirit of God with them to give righteous judgments.

Isaiah 1 is about actual judges. Isaiah 11 is about the Messiah. Judges didn't used to judge without seeing or hearing. The Messiah will be able to.

The "judges" of the Talmud do not "judge" by reading the Talmud. They were the ones who wrote it...

Rather, Isaiah 1 in verse 25 G-d says that He will remove the unrighteous from the nation. Therefore the judges that will be "returned as at first", means that we will only be judged by righteous judges. As opposed to the mixture of righteous (Rabbinical) and unrighteous (secular) judges of the day, or even of today.

And those unrighteous judges are the ones that will be made as nothing.

2. The destroyers have no authority at all, they have to strike everyone without the mark. The righteous are the ones who groan over the abominations, and it is they who are marked. The destroyers cannot strike the righteous.

You keep changing what you are saying. You just said "Without the mark the destroyer would have destroyed everyone."

As you are so adamant about not seeing, the righteous needed a mark. Otherwise their righteousness alone would have saved them from the Destroyer. You can say that the Destroyer doesn't know how to judge between righteous and wicked or any other reason you want. But the fact is that unless a mark is made, the Destroyer kills everyone. We see this hear and in Ex. 12:!3.