Messiah: Quality not quantity

[rational experiences]

Make a choice was a man named Jesus?

If he was first a man he was born a man's baby. Grew as a human grows into a man human. Man says I was born. Given the name Jesus. Jesus is just using a name.

Phi the science status is not named Jesus it is named Phi by men of science who lie. In the beginning I lied says the scientist. I had no proof of anything. I built science.

Make a choice what type of human man is a human man.

Like his human father or a God?

If you say I am a God. Science says no man is God. O earth mass or heavens mass. Created creation in a space womb.

CH Christ said a man of science were gases that arise out of a volcano mountain erection ejecting into space womb.

No man is Christ a God either.

Did the documents say science invented anti man human?

No says a satanic theist.

But you do. You preach Christ was a man. Christ are gases. Taught by a man of science.

As you said Christ was a man as a lie.

You argue claiming I had to claim I owned Christ. As my brother caused anti Christ. Is not a reasonable answer.

So old documents Mayan involved temple pyramid science also.

Predicted space evolution by star fall.

Earth heavens inheritor Christ mass returned 2012. Stated after science had sacrificed life first.

Science Roman pyramid temple controlled use rebuilt science changed the returned heavens mass prediction as taught.

Maybe 1000 years later the community tried to rebuild same temple science again.

The law said no science allowed. Science book shut. Sworn oath to only tell the human truth.

Ignored.
Want. I want. I am a greedy wanting man. I know it all..in the same mind says I don't know it all. I want to know it all however. Natural humans say you can't and won't know it all.

His argument. Man and his machines will know as if machines were the first state in created creation. Possessed scientist.

A man in human life never owned a name first. His first self given status name was human. As lots of human existed using a name was a human choice.

 

[Brian2]

I was referring to @Rival's reply to the OP and subsequent query as to why her answer was deemed irrelevant to the OP by the OP.

I was being sarcastic. I should have used some sort of emoji.

 

[Brian2]

I think it's more of an 'in-house' thing really - 'proof texts' are to comfort the believer rather than persuade the non-believer.

In other words, if you think the NT is reportage/scripture, you'll be further convinced, if you think it's neither reportage nor scripture, you won't be.

Yes there is a lot of confirmation bias around.
From my pov it is as Paul said, if the Jews turn to Jesus the veil will be lifted.

 

[kaninchen]

Yes there is a lot of confirmation bias around.

I've always maintained that 'proof text' evangelism/proselytising is a complete waste of everybody's time.

In my early years of talking to Christians, as many Jewish posters do in religious discussions, I went through the motions of discussing suffering servants or wonderful counsellors etc - then I realised that it was just ridiculous to spend one's time on what amounted to literary criticism.

 

[Brian2]

I've always maintained that 'proof text' evangelism/proselytising is a complete waste of everybody's time.

In my early years of talking to Christians, as many Jewish posters do in religious discussions, I went through the motions of discussing suffering servants or wonderful counsellors etc - then I realised that it was just ridiculous to spend one's time on what amounted to literary criticism.

Yes it always amazes me how someone who professes to believe a certain text can say it means the opposite of what it actually says. (not speaking about Jews here).

 

[74x12]

The accusation:
Christians rely on a large number of poor-quality arguments in order to support the claim that Jesus of Nazareth is the messiah predicted in the Tanakh/Old Testament. Their position could best be summed up in the cliché "Never mind the quality. Feel the width."

The challenge:
Show a place in the Tanakh where the original context clearly shows that a messiah is being predicted and then show that Jesus of Nazareth is indisputably the fulfilment of that prediction. Show one and only one, not two or more.

Isaiah 53 is clearly Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

The Messiah is largely based on Jewish tradition, but there are passages that are accepted by the majority as being messianic. Here is a list I compiled a while ago:

2 Shmuel 7:10-13 (Samuel)
And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.
And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.
When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history. The Temple is not built. There is no King.

The part that is specifically about the Messiah I have made blue. This Messiah has come and is building a house for God's name by building His Church where God dwells in each member.
He is the King and has established the New Covenant
Jeremiah 31:34 No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more."
Jesus is not your King if you are not in the New Covenant and you do not see the Kingdom in your midst.

Yeshayahu 2-4 (Isaiah)

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.

The Messiah is not mentioned here but the house of the Lord which has been established and is being established and is at the top of the mountains is the Christian Church into which people have and are coming to learn the ways of the God of Jacob.
The Torah and word of the Lord had gone forth from Jerusalem.
It does not say when God will judge between nations and when peace will come however. It certainly does not say straight away when the Messiah comes. How could that be the case if the Messiah has to build the house of God first and the nations are to come into it before that peace happens?

Yeshayahu 11-12-13

And he shall raise a banner to the nations, and he shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah he shall gather from the four corners of the earth.
And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.

The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.

I don't see that this particular quote says that the lost tribes will be gathered back to Israel. But of course that will happen and is happening now as people whose ancestors were part of the last tribes become Christians. (lucky them, they have not been told the same things about Jesus that the current Jews have.) Christians have been attached to Israel and are children of Abraham through faith. The banner is Jesus.

Yeshahyahu 27-12-13

And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.
And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.

Not happened yet.

Again the Messiah is not mentioned in that passage.

Yirmiyahu 31:33 (Jeremiah)

And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.

What is written above will happen when the full number of the Gentiles have come in and Jesus returns and set up the Kingdom in it's fulness. Our bodies will be changed to spiritual bodies that we will be able to control with out spirits. At the moment we have come to the house of the Lord and are learning the ways of the Lord.
There is an order to events and not everything happens at once.

Yechezkel 37:26-28 (Ezekiel)

And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever.

Temple still not built and the Nations don't all recognise G-d as G-d.

I don't see anything about all the nations recognising God. That will happen eventually however.

Micah 4:1-3

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war. L-rd's House not established.

Same as Isa 2 quote.

Tzefanaiah 3:9-13 (Zefanaiah)

For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering.
On that day you shall not be ashamed of all your deeds [with] which you rebelled against Me, for then I will remove from your midst those who rejoice in your pride, and you shall no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mount.
And I will leave over in your midst a humble and poor people, and they shall take shelter in the name of the Lord.
The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down, with no one to cause them to shudder.

This hasn't happened either. None of it.

Is this meant to happen straight away as soon as Messiah comes. I have already mentioned the Gentiles coming to the house of the Lord and learning God's ways. That is happening. Maybe the Jews will be the last to be converted after the time of the Gentiles is finished.

Zach 14:9-11

And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.
And they shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more destruction; but Jerusalem shall dwell in safety.

Jerusalem is hardly dwelling in safety and polytheism is still a thing.

So Jesus did not gather the lost tribes, rebuild the temple, not a king etc.

These things will happen also. The temple is being built for the Spirit of God to dwell in and Jesus is King now over a Kingdom you cannot see.
Zech 12 has to happen also and has not happened yet.

Zech 12:1 A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.

The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’

6 “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

7 “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

 

[DNB]

So you want us to use the Tanakh and not the Old Testament and you want just one prophecy which unmistakably points to Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah.
I can't think of any that someone has not disputed and interpreted a different way, especially not from the Tanakh where the translation is usually different enough to hide the significance in relation to Jesus.

Hi Brian, did you make a typo - the TaNaKh is the entire Old Testament, were you meaning the Torah?
Either way, my sentiments exactly - but then, maybe that's David's point, that there is no explicit and unequivocal statement that specifically prophecies of Jesus of Nazareth's Messianic fulfillment....
...but, maybe that's God's point - there's always a level of ambiguity in what He reveals in order to create a dichotomy between the wise and perceptive, and the defiant and proud?

 

[Brian2]

Hi Brian, did you make a typo - the TaNaKh is the entire Old Testament, were you meaning the Torah?
Either way, my sentiments exactly - but then, maybe that's David's point, that there is no explicit and unequivocal statement that specifically prophecies of Jesus of Nazareth's Messianic fulfillment....
...but, maybe that's God's point - there's always a level of ambiguity in what He reveals in order to create a dichotomy between the wise and perceptive, and the defiant and proud?

It does seem that there is always a way out for people who do not want to believe and need to justify it to themselves.................and then try to convince believers that what they believe is not true.

 

[Sand Dancer]

The accusation:
Christians rely on a large number of poor-quality arguments in order to support the claim that Jesus of Nazareth is the messiah predicted in the Tanakh/Old Testament. Their position could best be summed up in the cliché "Never mind the quality. Feel the width."

The challenge:
Show a place in the Tanakh where the original context clearly shows that a messiah is being predicted and then show that Jesus of Nazareth is indisputably the fulfilment of that prediction. Show one and only one, not two or more.

The thing is that there are new versions of the Bible all the time changing words and meanings, and they used OT verses to write the NT verses to be used about Jesus.

 

[Harel13]

Hi Brian, did you make a typo - the TaNaKh is the entire Old Testament, were you meaning the Torah?

Depends who you ask. From what I know, mainstream Christians typically smoosh in many other books into what they call "the OT". My knowledge on this matter is based on Wikipedia, so feel free to correct me:
Old Testament - Wikipedia

 

[Rival]

Depends who you ask. From what I know, mainstream Christians typically smoosh in many other books into what they call "the OT". My knowledge on this matter is based on Wikipedia, so feel free to correct me:
Old Testament - Wikipedia

The canon of both the Tanakh and the Protestant OT is the same, but not for Catholics and Orthodox Christians. The only difference between the Tanakh and Protestant OT is the order of the books. The Prots specifically made their OT canon the same as the Tanakh, which I find somewhat ironic.

 

[Harel13]

The canon of both the Tanakh and the Protestant OT is the same, but not for Catholics and Orthodox Christians. The only difference between the Tanakh and Protestant OT is the order of the books. The Prots specifically made their OT canon the same as the Tanakh, which I find somewhat ironic.

I find that ironic as well. How about the contents of the books - did the Protestants leave in the additions to Daniel, the Psalms that are after no. 150, (other stuff?)?

 

[Rival]

I find that ironic as well. How about the contents of the books - did the Protestants leave in the additions to Daniel, the Psalms that are after no. 150, (other stuff?)?

No, they excluded them.

In older editions of the King James Bible such apocrypha are included in the middle (between the OT and NT), and the Anglican Church has this to say in the XXXIX Articles of Faith,

And the other Books (as Hierome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine; such are these following:

The Third Book of Esdras, The rest of the Book of Esther,
The Fourth Book of Esdras, The Book of Wisdom,
The Book of Tobias, Jesus the Son of Sirach,
The Book of Judith, Baruch the Prophet,
The Song of the Three Children, The Prayer of Manasses,
The Story of Susanna, The First Book of Maccabees,
Of Bel and the Dragon, The Second Book of Maccabees.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Isaiah 53 is clearly Jesus.

The charismatic rabbi who preached to thousands of attentive listeners and had a triumphal entry into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday was not despised. He wasn't silent before his accusers. He had no offspring or peers. More likely it's talking about Israel, which is a pretty common theme in the OT.

 

[74x12]

The charismatic rabbi who preached to thousands of attentive listeners and had a triumphal entry into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday was not despised. He wasn't silent before his accusers. He had no offspring or peers. More likely it's talking about Israel, which is a pretty common theme in the OT.

No it can't be talking about Israel because whoever it is dies for the sins of the prophet's people. Who is the prophet's people? It's the nation of Israel. So whoever Isaiah 53 is talking about can't be the nation of Israel. It must be someone who in fact dies for the sins of Israel. It's not describing someone who deservedly dies for their own sins. It's talking about someone who dies like a sacrificial lamb for the sins of the nation. So if you pay attention to the wording that's what you will see.

Notice according to the prophet; this unnamed man even dies for his own transgressions. That is the sins of even the prophet himself and the whole nation as well.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.​

Once Jesus was arrested and they brought "witnesses" against him; he refused to defend himself or open his mouth. This fulfilled the prophecy that he would be silent like a lamb led to slaughter. That's because he really was the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of Israel and the world.

 

[rosends]

No it can't be talking about Israel because whoever it is dies for the sins of the prophet's people. Who is the prophet's people? It's the nation of Israel. So whoever Isaiah 53 is talking about can't be the nation of Israel. It must be someone who in fact dies for the sins of Israel. It's not describing someone who deservedly dies for their own sins. It's talking about someone who dies like a sacrificial lamb for the sins of the nation. So if you pay attention to the wording that's what you will see.

Notice according to the prophet; this unnamed man even dies for his own transgressions. That is the sins of even the prophet himself and the whole nation as well.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.​

Once Jesus was arrested and they brought "witnesses" against him; he refused to defend himself or open his mouth. This fulfilled the prophecy that he would be silent like a lamb led to slaughter. That's because he really was the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of Israel and the world.

while this isn't the thread for it, and this has been explored elsewhere, I think it would be proper to look at the verses you snipped in context. Kings of other people who have oppressed Israel now present their opinion that Israel suffered when they (the foreign kings) and their own people actually deserved to be punished. So these verses are from the perspective of non-Jewish kings about Israel's accepting being victimized.

 

[Sand Dancer]

No it can't be talking about Israel because whoever it is dies for the sins of the prophet's people. Who is the prophet's people? It's the nation of Israel. So whoever Isaiah 53 is talking about can't be the nation of Israel. It must be someone who in fact dies for the sins of Israel. It's not describing someone who deservedly dies for their own sins. It's talking about someone who dies like a sacrificial lamb for the sins of the nation. So if you pay attention to the wording that's what you will see.

Notice according to the prophet; this unnamed man even dies for his own transgressions. That is the sins of even the prophet himself and the whole nation as well.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.​

Once Jesus was arrested and they brought "witnesses" against him; he refused to defend himself or open his mouth. This fulfilled the prophecy that he would be silent like a lamb led to slaughter. That's because he really was the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of Israel and the world.

I see what you mean, although sometimes non human things are addresses as he or she. Maybe it was a king. Kings were called "Messiah" too. I wish we could know for sure. Jesus doesn't measure up to all the prophesy.

 

[David Young]

I have to say that I find the main Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53 far more convincing than the Christian one.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I have to say that I find the main Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53 far more convincing than the Christian one.

What's the main Jewish interpretation?