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Featured Messiah: Quality not quantity

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by David Young, Jan 22, 2022.

  1. David Young

    David Young Member

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    The accusation:
    Christians rely on a large number of poor-quality arguments in order to support the claim that Jesus of Nazareth is the messiah predicted in the Tanakh/Old Testament. Their position could best be summed up in the cliché "Never mind the quality. Feel the width."

    The challenge:
    Show a place in the Tanakh where the original context clearly shows that a messiah is being predicted and then show that Jesus of Nazareth is indisputably the fulfilment of that prediction. Show one and only one, not two or more.
     
  2. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    You’re new to RF welcome!

    I accept all the religions and their Founders and not just through prophecies because anyone can interpret them in a way that’s suits their own beliefs. But I look at their lives and what they taught as well as the influence they had over civilisations.

    Also their Words have a great effect over their followers which enabled Them to overcome all obstacles amidst dire opposition, and come out of it conquering the hearts and minds of people all over the word.

    Christ was such a Person. His spiritual greatness has spread so far and wide that are we really in need of any one verse to establish Him as Messiah? I think not.

    Thanks for giving me the opportunity to share my understanding.
     
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  3. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    ZZZzzzzzz.............:sleeping:
     
  4. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    So you want us to use the Tanakh and not the Old Testament and you want just one prophecy which unmistakably points to Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah.
    I can't think of any that someone has not disputed and interpreted a different way, especially not from the Tanakh where the translation is usually different enough to hide the significance in relation to Jesus.
     
  5. David Young

    David Young Member

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    For a Protestant, the Tanakh and the Old Testament are the same thing content-wise, so a prophecy from one would be from the other.

    For a Catholic or Orthodox Christian, the Tanakh is the largest part of the Old Testament. In this case, I am asking for something not translated into Greek or taken from the Deuterocanon.
     
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  6. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    The Messiah is largely based on Jewish tradition, but there are passages that are accepted by the majority as being messianic. Here is a list I compiled a while ago:

    2 Shmuel 7:10-13 (Samuel)
    And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.
    And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.
    When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.
    He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

    This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history. The Temple is not built. There is no King.

    Yeshayahu 2-4 (Isaiah)

    And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
    And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
    And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.


    People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.

    Yeshayahu 11-12-13

    And he shall raise a banner to the nations, and he shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah he shall gather from the four corners of the earth.
    And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.


    The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.

    Yeshahyahu 27-12-13

    And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.
    And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.


    Not happened yet.

    Yirmiyahu 31:33 (Jeremiah)

    And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

    Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.

    Yechezkel 37:26-28 (Ezekiel)

    And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
    And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
    And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever.


    Temple still not built and the Nations don't all recognise G-d as G-d.

    Micah 4:1-3

    And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
    And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
    And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.


    People still go to war. L-rd's House not established.

    Tzefanaiah 3:9-13 (Zefanaiah)

    For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord.
    From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering.
    On that day you shall not be ashamed of all your deeds [with] which you rebelled against Me, for then I will remove from your midst those who rejoice in your pride, and you shall no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mount.
    And I will leave over in your midst a humble and poor people, and they shall take shelter in the name of the Lord.
    The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down, with no one to cause them to shudder.


    This hasn't happened either. None of it.

    Zach 14:9-11

    And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
    The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.
    And they shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more destruction; but Jerusalem shall dwell in safety.


    Jerusalem is hardly dwelling in safety and polytheism is still a thing.

    So Jesus did not gather the lost tribes, rebuild the temple, not a king etc.
     
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  7. David Young

    David Young Member

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    At the risk of repeating myself...
     
  8. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    I'm not sure what you want.

    I use the Tanakh from Chabad and am a former years long Noahide. I've been debating Christianity this way for half a decade now.

    I see you asked for one, so I guess just pick one that I gave.
     
  9. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    ;):cool::D
     
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  10. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Messiah: Quality not quantity

    I need not the Tanakh to know Jesus is a Great Master. He said "I and my Father are One".

    It's about quality indeed. Jesus lived a great example of how one can live a Spiritual life. That's enough for me

    Of course, I have not seen Jesus in action, as it was 2000 years ago. BUT, Christ is alive also today, and He can appear to us Here and Now. That's the best and only proof that I accept. I don't go for heresay, only for personal experiences
     
    #10 stvdv, Jan 22, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
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  11. 101G

    101G Active Member

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    Sure, Genesis 49:9 "Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?" verse 10 "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be."
    here the term "Shiloh" is the Hebrew word,
    H7886 שִׁילֹה Shiyloh (shee-lo') n/p.
    1. tranquil.
    2. Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah.
    [from H7951]
    KJV: Shiloh.
    Root(s): H7951
    my source for this definition is the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments.

    and the Gathering of the people, Matthew 2:6 "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel." and who is the people Gathered to be ruled? answer, Ephesians 1:9 "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:" Ephesians 1:10 "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:"
    question asked, question answered.
    PICJAG, 101G.
     
  12. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    He asked for proof for Jesus, not against...
     
  13. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    Those are messianic so I accept them not in the literal sense of a Temple in Jerusalem, for example, but a spiritual temple and so forth.

    I agree they don't apply to Jesus but to the One who fulfills the separate visions of all the revealed religions as the Second Coming, Jewish Messiah, Kalki, Maitreya and so forth.
     
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  14. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    Yeah I read that when I was in bed and half asleep, so my fault.

    But it is a debate section :D
     
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  15. Spiderman

    Spiderman Veteran Member

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    Beautiful post! :)

    I would add though that Jesus could have been a sacrificial lamb who atoned for sin through bloodshed and death, and wearing a crown of thorns, as one of multiple Messiah guys.

    Not the greatest and most important Messiah who fulfills the most prophecy and expectations, but Scripture actually makes it clear there is more than one Messiah, because Cyrus the great, who ended Babylonian captivity, built the Temple, and created Israel, was hailed by Jews in Scripture as "Messiah", and Scripture calls him "anointed one" , Messiah, and instrument of God, despite his being a gentile that did not even practice the true faith.

    So, if a gentile can be a "Messiah", I don't see why Jesus who is at least from the tribe of Judah, can't be a Messiah, and why the various prophecies of the coming Messiah can't be talking about more than one different person.

    (But I do confess, Jesus of Nazareth and I don't get along, and I'm a bit disappointed. We agree on some things though. :p )
     
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  16. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe we don't have the original context anymore, maybe the parts were removed that supported more Jesus. I think it is interesting where did the early Christians get the idea of Messiah, when our modern Bible doesn't have much about it really.

    However, I think best point for Jesus is that the prophesy of New covenant.

    For finding fault with them, he said, "Behold, the days come," says the Lord, "That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they didn't continue in my covenant, And I disregarded them," says the Lord. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
    Hebrews 8:8-12 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

    Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live...
    Deuteronomy 30:6-9

    I think that new covenant was declared through Jesus. His words can cause the change of heart so that person becomes righteous.

    A born-again child of God (kolumbus.fi)
     
  17. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Proof against? What proof against?
     
  18. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think it is in the many overlapping prophecies about the Messiah which show Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets, so the forest of fulfilled prophecies is the evidence more so that just one particular prophecy.
     
  19. kaninchen

    kaninchen Member

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    I think it's more of an 'in-house' thing really - 'proof texts' are to comfort the believer rather than persuade the non-believer.

    In other words, if you think the NT is reportage/scripture, you'll be further convinced, if you think it's neither reportage nor scripture, you won't be.
     
  20. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    I was referring to @Rival's reply to the OP and subsequent query as to why her answer was deemed irrelevant to the OP by the OP.
     
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