Meaning of the Heart Sutra Discussion

[Buddha Dharma]

I was curious what opinions my fellow Buddhists can give me about a matter. It has occurred to me when reciting the Heart Sutra that saying form is emptiness, and emptiness itself is form can be taken to mean that the truth about things is beyond both of these views. I guess I'm asking if you think one of the insights of the Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra is that things lack both self and not-self, but treating them with emptiness is upaya- a skillful means to remove mental obstacles?

 

[crossfire]

When you take emptiness as an object, it itself becomes an empty form.

 

[YmirGF]

When you take emptiness as an object, it itself becomes an empty form.

Respectfully, @crossfire

Are you meaning when emptiness is described as a state of consciousness?

 

[Twilight Hue]

I was curious what opinions my fellow Buddhists can give me about a matter. It has occurred to me when reciting the Heart Sutra that saying form is emptiness, and emptiness itself is form can be taken to mean that the truth about things is beyond both of these views. I guess I'm asking if you think one of the insights of the Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra is that things lack both self and not-self, but treating them with emptiness is upaya- a skillful means to remove mental obstacles?

Ring a bell.....

Heart Sutra in a ding.

 

[crossfire]

Respectfully, @crossfire

Are you meaning when emptiness is described as a state of consciousness?

Emptiness as described as a state of consciousness is impermanent, no? (Like any other form.)

 

[Buddha Dharma]

Crossfire I think I understand what you're getting at.

 

[Srivijaya]

I was curious what opinions my fellow Buddhists can give me about a matter. It has occurred to me when reciting the Heart Sutra that saying form is emptiness, and emptiness itself is form can be taken to mean that the truth about things is beyond both of these views. I guess I'm asking if you think one of the insights of the Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra is that things lack both self and not-self, but treating them with emptiness is upaya- a skillful means to remove mental obstacles?

I think the truth of things is beyond any views but the formulation is very interesting; form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Form is not other than emptiness, emptiness is not other than form.

This states that they are one and the same thing. There is no 'transcendental' emptiness as an ultimate state to be attained, as opposed to 'deceived' form. How anyone managed to extrapolate the doctrine of the two truths out of this is beyond me. Some also believe that emptiness forms some kind of substrate to existence, which it clearly can't do, as without form, feeling etc. no emptiness can be asserted.

So emptiness is clearly not a metaphysical proposition, however else it's understood.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Does this help in removing your sorrows? Otherwise, Acinteyya. Buddha was clear about that. The Noble Eight-fold Path.

 

[atanu]

I was curious what opinions my fellow Buddhists can give me about a matter. It has occurred to me when reciting the Heart Sutra that saying form is emptiness, and emptiness itself is form can be taken to mean that the truth about things is beyond both of these views. I guess I'm asking if you think one of the insights of the Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra is that things lack both self and not-self, but treating them with emptiness is upaya- a skillful means to remove mental obstacles?

I understand as below:

https://www.lamayeshe.com/article/commentary-heart-sutra

“Form is empty, emptiness is form. Emptiness is no other than form and form is no other than emptiness.” This refers to the aggregate of form alone. The same reference is then made to feeling, recognition, karmic formations and so forth.
........
So by telling Shariputra that in emptiness there is no form, no feeling, no discrimination, down to no eye and so forth, this indicates how we should train ourselves on the path of meditation. On this path, the consciousness is one with the object, emptiness—like water being poured into water. There is complete oneness, without duality.

If this non-dual wisdom that only perceives emptiness could also see physical form, then this would be inherently existing or truly existing. Therefore, for those who are absorbed in meditation on emptiness, in that wisdom, conventional existence cannot be seen. If conventional existence is seen by that wisdom, then the lack of inherent existence does not apply. This would mean that there should be inherent or true existence.

 

[Srivijaya]

Does this help in removing your sorrows?

I think that depends on which presentation of emptiness you consider.

The emptiness awareness release and the description of the descent into emptiness found in the Pali suttas are both very helpful.

Metaphysics and speculation on 'ultimate' states; existence/non-existence, true or illusory existence etc. have never been beneficial to my practice in the least, though they may help others.