Me vs Lawrence: Christian prayer/faith is, by definition, a subtype of magic.

[Me Myself]

Basically, we want to talk this out one on one.

there is no number limit for posts or anything ( I haven´t even seen it in all thread here even though it is a "rule" anyways ) I just wanna hear the catholic side from it.

My definition of magic is simple, the Oxford dictionary one:


Magic as defined by the Oxford dictionary:

the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

Now, if we go by what Jesus said:

"If you had faith with the size of a grain of mustard, then you could tell the mountain to move and it would do so" (paraphrasing)

"Your faith has healed you"

"Whatever you ask to your father he will give you (...) if you that are bad only give good things to your sons, how could the Father that is good not give you what you ask for?" (again, paraphrasing)

So, as clearly exposed, prayer and faith is a form of magical power, and christians with faith do in fact, use magic.

So , I guess now lawrence rebates my points?

 

[Renji]

Lol, I was about to start the thread when I saw this. Anyway, let's see:

My definition of magic is simple, the Oxford dictionary one:


Magic as defined by the Oxford dictionary:

the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

If we are going to consider that definition, it is clearly stated that magic is the power which influences events , let us therefore see the definition of the Church regarding prayer:

CCC# 2559 "Prayer is the raising of one's mind and heart to God or the requesting of good things from God."

Here, we can see that prayer is dedicating one's self (mind and heart) to God, and not merely an act to influence/manipulate an aspect of reality or events. Furthermore, it is clearly stated that it is a form of requesting something from God. Now, I am able to read some New Age and Wiccan books concerning about magic in a bookstore last time (as well as Wikipedia). If we are going to consider their definition that magic is something that involves manipulating aspects of reality by supernatural means (I've already clarified this one so let's focus on the next line) or through the knowledge of occult laws/powers that the person has obtained. Notice what it says: through the knowledge of occult laws/powers that the person has obtained. Therefore, it comes from the self. It is the person then who is obtaining what he desires through performing rituals and such (by focusing energies and such). In petition type of prayer, we just put our desires to the providence of God, putting our desire on his power, and not through our own power or merit.

CCC# 2564 Christian prayer is a covenant relationship between God and man in Christ.

It is an expression of love of man to God. We pray not only to ask something, but also to "communicate" with Him, in order for us to "say" that we love him.

CCC# 2565 In the New Covenant, prayer is the living relationship of the children of God with their Father who is good beyond measure, with his Son Jesus Christ and with the Holy Spirit.

That relationship expressed through prayer is a way of recognizing that we are God's children. Therefore, we are forming union with God through prayer.

In conclusion, there is a big difference between Christian prayer and magic because magic just involves influencing events. And prayer, as I've stated is MORE than that.
I also asked Draka about this (Thanks Draka btw.) because I also want to consider a Wiccan/ Pagan perspective about this. I asked, is there a difference between prayer and magic? She told me that if the purpose is just to connect with the Divine, then it's not really magic. See my friend, there is a difference.

BTW, I'm not done yet. Wait for the next part of the post before responding. This is just the first part.:angel2:

 

[Me Myself]

It is evil to fill my head with responses and don´t let me answer you know?

tell me when I can

 

[Renji]

Now, if we go by what Jesus said:

"If you had faith with the size of a grain of mustard, then you could tell the mountain to move and it would do so" (paraphrasing)

I don't know if you are too literal with this my friend, so let us therefore read it in context so that this may be clarified:

"Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could we not cast him out (*the demon*)? And Jesus said to them, because of your unbelief, for verily I say unto you, if you have faith as a grain of a mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain. Remove hence to yonder place and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. How beit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting?"

It simply says that when you ask something on God, put your trust on him and God will respond to your plea, that even in commanding demons, they will "tremble" before you because you are not alone; you are with God. Let us further read a similar verse from Mark:

"And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you. That whoever shall say unto this mountain, be removed, and be though cast into the sea and shall not doubt into his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore, I say unto you. What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

It simply says that when we ask something from God, we should put our complete trust (remove all doubts); also known as faith,in God. It can be that the mountain there is something in our life that is difficult to remove (or an obstacle). If we put our complete trust in him, he will help us "remove" it. It's not about the literal mountain being moved from a place to another but rather placing one's desire to God's divine providence with complete confidence.

"Your faith has healed you"

You are citing about a miracle performed by Christ. One of them is what's found on the book of Mark 10:48-52:

And many rebuked him, telling him to be silent. But he cried out all the more, "Son of David, have mercy on me!" And Jesus stopped and said, "Call him." And they called the blind man, saying to him, "Take heart. Get up; he is calling you." And throwing off his cloak, he sprang up and came to Jesus. And Jesus said to him, "What do you want me to do for you?" And the blind man said to him, "Rabbi, let me recover my sight." And Jesus said to him, "Go your way; your faith has made you well." And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way.

That miracle is possible because the blind man has shown trust in Christ. Remember too that miracles such as this is part of his earthly ministry. He has power in Him (as one of the divine persons) that can make Him do these "marvelous deeds". The principle there is that if you trust Him (and in the present time, if your petition is according to the will of God), how can he refuse? That simple. If it's really magic, then the "power" that should supposedly heal the blind man should come from himself (remember the definition I stated earlier?), not Jesus'.

"Whatever you ask to your father he will give you (...) if you that are bad only give good things to your sons, how could the Father that is good not give you what you ask for?" (again, paraphrasing)

It simply says that if you believe in God's providence, you follow him, it is part of his will to give you what you asked, you have done effort to get what you desire, then you shall have it. Remember, in Christian prayer for petition, your own effort is necessary in achieving something. It's not like if you ask "God, I need money... Give it to me.", you pray and do some sort of rituals or use charms (which is prohibited btw), then bingo! you shall have it... You need work and complete trust in God for you to have what you desire. God is just a helper, the rest lies on you...

These are nothing new really, we just need to understand.

 

[Renji]

It is evil to fill my head with responses and don´t let me answer you know?

tell me when I can

Nope, it's just that my responses are long and I don't want to get crazy responding to your posts!

I'm done.

 

[Me Myself]

Here, we can see that prayer is dedicating one's self (mind and heart) to God, and not merely an act to influence/manipulate an aspect of reality or events.

Do the communion with the supernatural power that is God have manifested effect on the individual? Does having a better relationship with God does not translate to being happier for example? Does not most if not all christian doctrine says that having a relationship with God/Jesus is the best way of insuring eternal life and the resurrection of one´s body?

Furthermore, it is clearly stated that it is a form of requesting something from God. Now, I am able to read some New Age and Wiccan books concerning about magic in a bookstore last time (as well as Wikipedia). If we are going to consider their definition that magic is something that involves manipulating aspects of reality by supernatural means (I've already clarified this one so let's focus on the next line) or through the knowledge of occult laws/powers that the person has obtained. Notice what it says: through the knowledge of occult laws/powers that the person has obtained. Therefore, it comes from the self. It is the person then who is obtaining what he desires through performing rituals and such (by focusing energies and such). In petition type of prayer, we just put our desires to the providence of God, putting our desire on his power, and not through our own power or merit.

1- "self"

2-obtaining things through rituals

3- Knowledge of the "occult"


1- What about the self? There needs to be "self" praying too

Besides, it depend´s on the prayer´s faith the amount of attention God may pay to him. Saint´s are considered to be more powerful in their prayers that regular people because they have more faith and are closer to God.


2-(warning, paraphrasing again ) "The pagans think that by talking and shouting a lot God will hear them. but Gos knows what you desire before you ask him, so do not be like the pagans and pray this way" *shows them the magic words*

So, when Jesus teaches us how to pray, he does so giving us a ritual: the joining of our hands and the reciting specific words. Some of this that are in themselves requests ( don´t let us fall in temptation, rid us from evil, forgive our sins, etc). Further more, the praying in itself says "As we forgive those who offend us" what is this? Does not this mean in equal measure? wouldn´t that mean that for me to be foriven I need to forgive? Because the act of forgiving others is a condition to meet what I am asking (forgiveness) and as such, it is even much more a part of the magical ritual to obtain this things I am praying for.

3- Is a prayer that invokes Christ´s name as good as one which doesn´t? Because if the one who says "in the name of christ" is better, then a christian prayer uses knowledge to get what one wants. Further more, the prayer taught above is a prove that a knowledge (of that prayer) helps us in achiving our goals through God (a supernatural force)

Additionaly, if you think that it is not "occult" because it is widespread, then magic that is widespreaded would cease to be occult, and through your definition, cease to be magic. Would you be comfortable with that definition? Does magic ceases to be magic if everyone has deep knowledge of it?

What is the definition of "occult" that you wish to use?

It is an expression of love of man to God. We pray not only to ask something, but also to "communicate" with Him, in order for us to "say" that we love him.

Covered that above.

That relationship expressed through prayer is a way of recognizing that we are God's children. Therefore, we are forming union with God through prayer.

In conclusion, there is a big difference between Christian prayer and magic because magic just involves influencing events. And prayer, as I've stated is MORE than that.
I also asked Draka about this (Thanks Draka btw.) because I also want to consider a Wiccan/ Pagan perspective about this. I asked, is there a difference between prayer and magic? She told me that if the purpose is just to connect with the Divine, then it's not really magic. See my friend, there is a difference.

Many initiation rituals in magic (hin hint, baptism) can involve union with supernatural forces (i.e: God).

Furthermore, comunion with the supernatural power that is God also brings something into the person: Wisdom, happiness, peace. All this are objectives of more than one magic ritual of self empowerement.

So any contact with the supernatural that affects you could be considered magic, by this existent practice of self empowerement magic.

Further more, even if you are just strengthening your faith in God by praying, using Christ´s words you would be excercising the power to move mountains. Taking about self empowerement!

I don't know if you are too literal with this my friend, so let us therefore read it in context so that this may be clarified:



It simply says that when you ask something on God, put your trust on him and God will respond to your plea, that even in commanding demons, they will "tremble" before you because you are not alone; you are with God. Let us further read a similar verse from Mark:



It simply says that when we ask something from God, we should put our complete trust (remove all doubts); also known as faith,in God. It can be that the mountain there is something in our life that is difficult to remove (or an obstacle). If we put our complete trust in him, he will help us "remove" it. It's not about the literal mountain being moved from a place to another but rather placing one's desire to God's divine providence with complete confidence.



You are citing about a miracle performed by Christ. One of them is what's found on the book of Mark 10:48-52:



That miracle is possible because the blind man has shown trust in Christ. Remember too that miracles such as this is part of his earthly ministry. He has power in Him (as one of the divine persons) that can make Him do these "marvelous deeds". The principle there is that if you trust Him (and in the present time, if your petition is according to the will of God), how can he refuse? That simple. If it's really magic, then the "power" that should supposedly heal the blind man should come from himself (remember the definition I stated earlier?), not Jesus'.




It simply says that if you believe in God's providence and it is according to his will and you have done effort to get what you desire, then you shall have it. Remember, in Christian prayer for petition, your own effort is necessary in achieving something. It's not like if you ask "God, I need money... Give it to me.", you pray and do some sort of rituals or use charms (which is prohibited btw), then bingo! you shall have it... You need work and complete trust in God for you to have what you desire. God is just a helper, the rest lies on you...

These are nothing new really, we just need to understand.

All this answer furthers my point that faith = magical power for a christian.

Also, Christ was clear on when he was talking parables. When he was going to say a parable he said "The kingdom of God is like..." for example. Remember that when Peter walked on water, he didn´t walked on the waters of his self doubt (well, maybe he did but more importantly : ) he wakled on the LITERAL waters next to him. When he fell, Jesus told Peter it was HIS fault because HIS faith trembled.

So the individual´s magical power (faith) has EVERYTHING to do with this. When Jesus healed he said "Your faith has heald you" because their faith did, indeed, healed them. He was very clear about this. With faith you can do ANY expression in the material world that you want.

Furthermore, there is a passage inthe bible when he is healing people and he tells God "How much time do I have to be with this people of little faith?" Why did he said that? It was because they needed to see him and ask him as a holy man to heal them, when God is everywere and his teachings said that only you need to pray to God and he will surely comply.

You just need faith.

So yeah, the "self" is incredibly important in christian teachings. That is why I quote "Your faith has healed you"

And for christians, you even have to use the "knowledge" of Christ´s nature if you want your prayers to be really effective.

So far, I have not seen you point a single distinction in any of your arguments.

Do wish to tell you I see htis more as a discussion if any, there are no "winners" or losers. You learned some more about magic, so you win new knowledge , I am learning what you can come up to as ways to distinct magic and prayer. Maybe you will, maybe you won´t . It seems like a really hard to argue case if you ask me, but mayb I´ll be surprised and learn more than what I´ve expected. Any case, for tonight I am going! Its REALLY late! xD

Hope to hear your next response.

:namaste

 

[Renji]

Do the communion with the supernatural power that is God have manifested effect on the individual?

Yes and no. Yes, if what one: 1) Asks God without doubt on his heart, 2) The one who asks does something in order to have that "something" and last and most importantly, 3) If it's on God's will. Without the 3 conditions, it will be a "no".

Having that said, prayers for petition is therefore different because it does not really intend to change a particular aspect of reality. Since the anticipated effect of prayer lies also on the will of God ( Jeremiah 29:11"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."), it is therefore mostly the will of God/ God's divine providence plus faith that prevails in a petitioning prayer, which is very different when you perform magic because in magic it is your own will and energy that is being focused towards something in order to obtain an effect.

Does having a better relationship with God does not translate to being happier for example?

It does not alter any physical reality though. Just a change in one's perspective in life. If one is happy by having a better relationship with God, it can make that person more positive in life perhaps; the way he/she see things will probably be positive.

Does not most if not all christian doctrine says that having a relationship with God/Jesus is the best way of insuring eternal life and the resurrection of one´s body?

You've spoken of the teaching salvation though, not magic.

1- What about the self? There needs to be "self" praying too

That argument won't work on me. Let me then say, the one who is praying does not manipulate things through his own merits or "powers"/knowledge that he possess on himself contrary to what magic practitioners usually do/ believe. May I add, some magic practitioners that the "self" is part of some sort of "light (or energy)" that is found on everything and on everyone (as Draka stated), hence, all (including yourself) is a part of the Divine/ Cosmos/ Force or whatever you may call it. Hence, that "light" from yourself is directed or focused to something in order to take effect, hence, manipulating an aspect of reality. In Christianity, we don't believe in energy or focusing it somewhere in order to achieve something. We just submit our trust to the Lord in a form of communication (aka prayer). And unlike in magic, it does not necessarily alter something, praying could also mean just simply thanking God, etc, etc. Perhaps the problem we have is that you seem to view that "prayer" is just for asking something to God, which is not. Prayer isn't limited to that. As you can see, that type of prayer is just prayer for petition. There are still many types of prayer (thanksgiving, expression of love towards God, communion with God, so on). On contrary, as already stated there is a big difference between Christian prayer and magic because magic just involves influencing events and may I add, obtaining something. And prayer is, as I repeat, is more than that.

Besides, it depend´s on the prayer´s faith the amount of attention God may pay to him.

As I said it's not faith alone. Actions + faith.

Saint´s are considered to be more powerful in their prayers that regular people because they have more faith and are closer to God.

Only God can see who has "more faith", whether one is saintly or not for it is only he who can read the hearts (and minds) of men. Besides, a man who thinks he is saintly than others might have less faith compared to those who thinks he's not because the one who thinks that he's "holy" over the others will probably think that his prayers will be answered because he's holy. Therefore, in that scenario, the one who's closer to God, and the one who'll probably have his prayers answered is the other person because of his humility because God favors humility not pride and self righteousness.

2-(warning, paraphrasing again ) "The pagans think that by talking and shouting a lot God will hear them. but Gos knows what you desire before you ask him, so do not be like the pagans and pray this way" *shows them the magic words*

So, when Jesus teaches us how to pray, he does so giving us a ritual: the joining of our hands

Joining of hands is a sign of humility (if you're talking about an individual praying) or a sign of unity (if you're talking about community prayers). We need humility when we pray: Matthew 6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men...." *Why do they pray like that? Because they want others to see them so that they will be praised. God doesn't want that.*

and the reciting specific words.

The focus isn't the reciting of words, but putting some meaning (praying from the heart) what you are saying. Because if you just recite them, they're nothing but "vain repetitions".

Some of this that are in themselves requests ( don´t let us fall in temptation, rid us from evil, forgive our sins, etc).

That's because when you pray, you recognize God as the great provider. Nothing wrong with that.

Further more, the praying in itself says "As we forgive those who offend us" what is this? Does not this mean in equal measure? wouldn´t that mean that for me to be foriven I need to forgive? Because the act of forgiving others is a condition to meet what I am asking (forgiveness) and as such, it is even much more a part of the magical ritual to obtain this things I am praying for.

Jesus said that one of the greatest commandment is to "Love your neighbor as you love yourself". Your enemies are your neighbors too, therefore you should also love them. If you truly love them, why not forgive? It's a reminder to us of what he has actually taught. In terms of God not forgiving your sins if you don't forgive your enemies, it is just an example of being just, not actually God asking for something in return. Let's put it like this: If God himself, who is Divine and perfect can forgive someone, why can't I? I ,who's just a simple human being who commits mistakes?

3- Is a prayer that invokes Christ´s name as good as one which doesn´t? Because if the one who says "in the name of christ" is better, then a christian prayer uses knowledge to get what one wants.

You see it the other way my friend. We pray for example, In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit not to obtain what we want, but to profess what we believe in. That we believe in God the Father Almighty the maker of heaven and earth, all things visible and invisible, his Son, who's Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior and at the Holy Spirit which serves as the guide of us Christians as the member of his Church.

 

[Renji]

Further more, the prayer taught above is a prove that a knowledge (of that prayer) helps us in achiving our goals through God (a supernatural force)

When I mentioned that magic involves one's own knowledge in order to achieve something, I did not mean the literal knowledge (aka intellect or familiarity with prayer for example). What I meant is that, in magic a person lets his own faculty (energy) work through an object/scenario to influence something. Christian prayer, as stipulated on earlier posts is different.

Additionaly, if you think that it is not "occult" because it is widespread, then magic that is widespreaded would cease to be occult, and through your definition, cease to be magic. Would you be comfortable with that definition? Does magic ceases to be magic if everyone has deep knowledge of it?

What is the definition of "occult" that you wish to use?

Occult may involve, but is not limited to the use of ESP, astrology, spiritualism and divination. In order not to be bias, this definition is accepted not only by the Church, Wikipedia, but also by some New Agers (based on the books that I was able to read in the bookstore about magic and the TV shows about this topic that I was able to watch before, although there can still be variations on what it could mean to some people). We don't do that in Christianity for it isn't acceptable in the eye's of God (see Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

Many initiation rituals in magic (hin hint, baptism) can involve union with supernatural forces (i.e: God).

A practitioner usually sees himself as as part of the light, which is energy, which is all part of the Divine. And that our spirits are but small sparks of the whole. The Energy of life itself flows around and through us and everything else. Connecting us. Magic then would be this purposeful directing of this energy by the use of our own to effect change. (Thanks to Draka again. ) Although by this, there seems to be union of supernatural forces when one does magic, still it says that the practitioner uses his own to effect change. As I stated already, this is not the case in the Christian prayer. God, in the Christian context is a separate being, not a force and that the one who prays is not part of him; neither do we have some spark of power on our own to do changes with the use of that power that comes from our self.

Furthermore, comunion with the supernatural power that is God also brings something into the person: Wisdom, happiness, peace. All this are objectives of more than one magic ritual of self empowerement.So any contact with the supernatural that affects you could be considered magic, by this existent practice of self empowerement magic.

On the contrary, Christian believes that there's some things he can't do without God, hence placing God as "top priority", the self just comes after. So, it's once reliance on God on some things that is being enhanced when we commune with God. Wisdom, hapiness and peace are just its "fruits", but not the main objective in forming communion with God, which is to form a loving relationship with God- that's it, unlike the ritual of self empowerment that you stated.

Further more, even if you are just strengthening your faith in God by praying, using Christ´s words you would be excercising the power to move mountains. Taking about self empowerement!

Literally? No, that would go to the limit of just praying and tempting God, and it is written: You shall not put the Lord your God into test. As I said about the verse I quoted:

It simply says that when we ask something from God, we should put our complete trust (remove all doubts); also known as faith,in God. It can be that the mountain there is something in our life that is difficult to remove (or an obstacle). If we put our complete trust in him, he will help us "remove" it. It's not about the literal mountain being moved from a place to another but rather placing one's desire to God's divine providence with complete confidence.

All this answer furthers my point that faith = magical power for a christian.

No it doesn't. If it's really a magical power, then it would be enough for us to alter something on our own (again and again), which is the core concept of magic.

Also, Christ was clear on when he was talking parables. When he was going to say a parable he said "The kingdom of God is like..." for example. Remember that when Peter walked on water, he didn´t walked on the waters of his self doubt (well, maybe he did but more importantly : ) he wakled on the LITERAL waters next to him. When he fell, Jesus told Peter it was HIS fault because HIS faith trembled.

That's because it's a different verse which talks about physical miracles done by Jesus, unlike other verses that I cited where he's just making examples (and explained but you didn't go on each of my explanations). In that verse you cited, Jesus is able to show that kind of miracle because he has a power on his own (as a Son of God and it's actually part of his earthly ministry, which I also mentioned earlier to address those issues about those miracles). Having Jesus on the actual scene He just wanted to show Peter that he should believe in His Master completely to walk in that water. It won't happen in this time though because his earthly ministry is over (What for? Just to show that we have power over matter?) and we're just waiting for his return.

So the individual´s magical power (faith) has EVERYTHING to do with this. When Jesus healed he said "Your faith has heald you" because their faith did, indeed, healed them. He was very clear about this. With faith you can do ANY expression in the material world that you want.

Furthermore, there is a passage inthe bible when he is healing people and he tells God "How much time do I have to be with this people of little faith?" Why did he said that? It was because they needed to see him and ask him as a holy man to heal them, when God is everywere and his teachings said that only you need to pray to God and he will surely comply.You just need faith.

Let us site an example. A Christian for instance is sick. As a Christian, he will use the means given to him by God for healing: medicine and persevering prayer. Now, there is a possibility for the illness to still progress (probably because spiritual growth will come out through that), be delayed or be healed, hence, we can't really alter ALL that we want. God's will remember?

Also, there is a type of magic to seek revenge for someone, such as curses. In prayer, we can't ask God to harm someone in order to seek revenge in a form of curse, hence, we can't have any expression we want through faith. Intention when praying is also important

So yeah, the "self" is incredibly important in christian teachings. That is why I quote "Your faith has healed you"

Nope, the self is just next important if not the least. If it is 'incredibly important' then why would Paul say: "You have made me act like a fool--boasting like this. You ought to be writing commendations for me, for I am not at all inferior to these "super apostles," even though I am nothing at all." If it's the top of the Christian doctrines, then Paul would have said "I'm superb" or something like that. Also, why would Jesus then make the commandment "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" just the second one? If that's more important, he could have said that first before "Love God above all things".

And for christians, you even have to use the "knowledge" of Christ´s nature if you want your prayers to be really effective.

Already said what I meant by "knowledge".

So far, I have not seen you point a single distinction in any of your arguments.

You failed to see that magic is just for manipulating aspects of reality while prayer isn't just for asking stuff to God (it's more than that), but also to thank, "talk" and expression of love to him.

As stated:

...if the purpose is just to connect (*or more precisely speak and to express love*) with the Divine, then it's not really magic.(*it's communication*)

Do wish to tell you I see htis more as a discussion if any, there are no "winners" or losers. You learned some more about magic, so you win new knowledge , I am learning what you can come up to as ways to distinct magic and prayer. Maybe you will, maybe you won´t . It seems like a really hard to argue case if you ask me, but mayb I´ll be surprised and learn more than what I´ve expected.

Well in my 3 years in RF, my goal when posting in a debate is not to "win", but to share what I know and to compare it with what others know. The very reason why I'm on RF isn't much on debating, but to simply share my perspectives about something and that's it. Actually, I'm not rebuking your opinions, I'm simply trying to contrast in a way that you will understand it (hopefully). Neither do I wish for you or someone to believe what I say or the say "Hey, be a Catholic/ Christian". That's just not my personality. And yeah, I'm not a very "solid" Catholic, but just an ordinary teenager who have interest on my "religion". That's it.

 

[Draka]

I don't wish to interrupt and I'm not going to get into your discussion, but as something I said was brought up and accredited to me I'd like to interject my own words if that's okay.

I was asked if prayer was the same thing as magic. My response was...

It can be, depends on the purpose of the prayer. If it is just to speak with god/goddess/deity and to express love, reverence, or thankfulness, then it is not really magic, it is communication with Divine. If it is for something to happen, like healing or getting a job, or whatnot, then it would be a form of magic.

So, a prayer to say "I love you" or "thank you for these blessings" or the like I wouldn't consider magic. Anything else, where there is a purpose and desired outcome, I would. Just wanted to clear that up. Please continue.

 

[Renji]

I don't wish to interrupt and I'm not going to get into your discussion, but as something I said was brought up and accredited to me I'd like to interject my own words if that's okay.

I was asked if prayer was the same thing as magic. My response was...



So, a prayer to say "I love you" or "thank you for these blessings" or the like I wouldn't consider magic. Anything else, where there is a purpose and desired outcome, I would. Just wanted to clear that up. Please continue.

I just rephrased so not to copy the whole thing. Appreciate that.

 

[Draka]

I just rephrased so not to copy the whole thing. Appreciate that.

It's okay. And I don't mean to interrupt or debate here. Just wanted to make sure if my opinion and beliefs were going to be used as reference that they were clear. Didn't want any misunderstanding is all

Again, sorry for the interruption.

 

[Me Myself]

Yes and no. Yes, if what one: 1) Asks God without doubt on his heart, 2) The one who asks does something in order to have that "something" and last and most importantly, 3) If it's on God's will. Without the 3 conditions, it will be a "no".

Having that said, prayers for petition is therefore different because it does not really intend to change a particular aspect of reality. Since the anticipated effect of prayer lies also on the will of God ( Jeremiah 29:11"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."), it is therefore mostly the will of God/ God's divine providence plus faith that prevails in a petitioning prayer, which is very different when you perform magic because in magic it is your own will and energy that is being focused towards something in order to obtain an effect.

The fact that you know God may not want to heal your father dying from cancer doesn´t mean you don´t want him to do so.

The fact that the supernatural power in question may decide not to work if he wants to does not make it cease to be a supernatural power with which you wish to change a reality. (i.e: something you are praying for) . Just makes the supernatural power less reliable for the effect.

This also goes in direct contradiction to what Jesus said about the heavenly Father that will grant anything good that his childs as in faith.

What I meant is that, in magic a person lets his own faculty (energy) work through an object/scenario to influence something. Christian prayer, as stipulated on earlier posts is different.

You haven´t really pointed out a difference, just details. According to your details this magic works diffrently, but as it doesn´t cease to be the manipulation of the physical realm by means of a supernatural force, it is still magic. Even if sometimes your supernaytural force doesn´t wanna help you. That opnly talks about the accuracy of the spell or the relaiabiliity of the ritual, but it doesn´t make God stop being supernatural.

The facuty of the person still relies on it´s faith, Jesus taught us that, or did he not? You may put up a verse here to cite where did Jesus said that faith was not the most important thing in prayer. Without faith you do not channel the power of God effectively. With faith you channel the power of God effectively. As someone that knows fromm the subjects of supernatural affecting reality I can tell you I understand why he said this: It is almost imposible to do a proper speel of any kind without faith, at least to the great majority of us. You need faith to move mountains.

Ask Peter, his feet know how much the lack of faith can physically hurt your feet.

Occult may involve, but is not limited to the use of ESP, astrology, spiritualism and divination. In order not to be bias, this definition is accepted not only by the Church, Wikipedia, but also by some New Agers (based on the books that I was able to read in the bookstore about magic and the TV shows about this topic that I was able to watch before, although there can still be variations on what it could mean to some people). We don't do that in Christianity for it isn't acceptable in the eye's of God (see Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

So no one communicating with the Holy Spirit and all the prophets that "divined" the future because of the will of God were not christian material? Nice move!

A practitioner usually sees himself as as part of the light, which is energy, which is all part of the Divine. And that our spirits are but small sparks of the whole. The Energy of life itself flows around and through us and everything else. Connecting us. Magic then would be this purposeful directing of this energy by the use of our own to effect change. (Thanks to Draka again. ) Although by this, there seems to be union of supernatural forces when one does magic, still it says that the practitioner uses his own to effect change. As I stated already, this is not the case in the Christian prayer. God, in the Christian context is a separate being, not a force and that the one who prays is not part of him; neither do we have some spark of power on our own to do changes with the use of that power that comes from our self.



On the contrary, Christian believes that there's some things he can't do without God, hence placing God as "top priority", the self just comes after. So, it's once reliance on God on some things that is being enhanced when we commune with God. Wisdom, hapiness and peace are just its "fruits", but not the main objective in forming communion with God, which is to form a loving relationship with God- that's it, unlike the ritual of self empowerment that you stated.

You first paragraphs depends on the fact that believing all you described be a tenet of magic that no magic practitioner can break. It is not. Magic is the use of a supernatural force to change the physical realm. That´s it.

Just because this supernatural force can decide not to help doesn´t mean that it ceases to be magical or that the practitioner ceases to have wished ffor it to work, nor it changes the fact that it had the power to work. I am truly astonished on how much you have overlooked Jesus´s portrayal of faith btw. I have quoted more than one example of the alleged central master of your faith, and no rebutal from his words of the points I am making. Where did Jesus said that God didn´t care about the amount of faith of he who asks? He clearly said God heared everyone, but he gave preference to those with faith. Said once and twice and thrice and then many more times.

Faith is the christian´s magical power. That if you take Jesus´s words and Peter´s hurt feet into a count.


About your second paragraph, any relationship has effect on both parts, otherwise it wouldn´t be a relationship. So when one wants to have a relationship, it is psychologically imposible not to have desires (at least subconcious) to be affected by the being which one is relating to.

I mean, if you saw somebody drawing a red satanic cross inthe floor and asking Satan to commune with him and also asks him stuff from time to time wouldn´t you call that black magic?


For many white magicians they themselves are not "top priority" but the people they are helping are. Or humanity, ot you name it. Not everyone does magic for their own benefit. A lot of peopel does magic for other´s sake.

Literally? No, that would go to the limit of just praying and tempting God, and it is written: You shall not put the Lord your God into test. As I said about the verse I quoted.

No it doesn't. If it's really a magical power, then it would be enough for us to alter something on our own (again and again), which is the core concept of magic.

Yes, literaly. We saw him do this things literaly, unless ou doubt the bible Peter literaly walked on water with faith alone and feel when he ceased to have faith.

It is enough. According to Jesus. "Your Faith has healed you" "If you had faith with the size of a grainof mustard..." etc and etc. Again, the fact that God may choose not to answer, does not mean it is not magic. You are still affecting reality using a supernatural power ( God). A learned practicioner of this can increase his faith with time and thus his ability to affect reality (if you take Jesus seriously) in a greater way, so he indeed has more magical power. The fact that it can still flunk is something that regards the specific form of Magic that has to do with your prayer. If you think the Father that is in heaven won´t give you the good things you want, then yes , it depends to "his" "will". It would go against what Jesus said though. God serves, because he who is higher always is the one who serves the most.

ediut: this has a second part and it´s almost done

 

[Me Myself]

That's because it's a different verse which talks about physical miracles done by Jesus, unlike other verses that I cited where he's just making examples (and explained but you didn't go on each of my explanations). In that verse you cited, Jesus is able to show that kind of miracle because he has a power on his own (as a Son of God and it's actually part of his earthly ministry, which I also mentioned earlier to address those issues about those miracles). Having Jesus on the actual scene He just wanted to show Peter that he should believe in His Master completely to walk in that water. It won't happen in this time though because his earthly ministry is over (What for? Just to show that we have power over matter?) and we're just waiting for his return

Okay, first I will pretend that no one prays for physical healing anymore and that miracles regarding physical healing have not happened since Jesus left the Earth ( I am generous like that ) . Now I am even going to pretend that the catholic church says God is not moved even by an inch on all our prayers when we pray for miracles because he doesn´t wish to be "tested" even when the "test" means we need a loved one cured or our daugthers save, or what ever. I will be generous like that even when it goes explicitly against what Jesus says, but so that it favours the general direction you wanna aim so to say that a person praying has no desire to affect the physical reailty bia the supernatural power that is God...

But there is something you just can´t deny. The physical resurrection of the body can be taken as nothing BUT a VERY supernatural effect on the physical realm. The aim of a Christian is to have an ETERNAL relationship with God, which can only happen after his body is RAISED FROM THE DEATH in a MATERIAL WAY. A body that can be touched like Jesus´s body could be touched. It is magic that has an ETERNAL effect on reality and according to catholicism, as long as you have faith in Jesus and follow the tenets of God then God WILL NOT will you away from hell. Yes, christianity says he could, but it says he WILL NOT. By this, even if none of the prayers for healing of relatives or for money or etc, that you do during your life count as magic, all the prayers that you do to have a better relationship with God and with Jesus are still prayers for the resurrection of the body which would practically be necromancy.

Self Necromancy of eternal ramifications

Also, there is a type of magic to seek revenge for someone, such as curses. In prayer, we can't ask God to harm someone in order to seek revenge in a form of curse, hence, we can't have any expression we want through faith. Intention when praying is also important

I didn´t say christian prayer/faith is black magic (i.e: cursing) I said it was magic. Blessing is a very popular form of magic too, and it is the form christians are encouraged to participate.

Intention is also really important in magic, many will tell you without intention there is no magic. Now, it is obvious you can´t pray for something that will harm someone else as it goes against Christ´s teachings and the message he gave when said that God listened to all: he said we are all his children.

God will give us whatever we want if we pray with faith. I have in my family and loved ones NUMEROUS cases in which God saved them from death at hands of seemingly imposible illnesses, astonishing doctors. The details arenot important. The practice is that Christians can and do pray with faith and manage to bring healing. The fact that this doesn´t always happen I will attest simply to a) not being for the best of the person being prayed for, as the form of magic that christian prayer procures prevents this from happening b) Quite simply, people lack the faith many times. It is a sad truth and that doesn´t mean they are bad persons. If peter that saw Jesus make miracle sin front of him, could lack faith even for a moment, how can a person who has never seen bread being multiple not be capable of doubting? Few people have faith. That´s what Jesus complained about.

It´s not easy, but Jesus abundantly said everything with faith is posible.

This is the most powerful magic: faith.

Nope, the self is just next important if not the least. If it is 'incredibly important' then why would Paul say: "You have made me act like a fool--boasting like this. You ought to be writing commendations for me, for I am not at all inferior to these "super apostles," even though I am nothing at all." If it's the top of the Christian doctrines, then Paul would have said "I'm superb" or something like that. Also, why would Jesus then make the commandment "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" just the second one? If that's more important, he could have said that first before "Love God above all things".

I didn´t say it was "more important" , I said it was important. If a magician doesn´t have any trust in the supernatural force he wants to influence (i.e: God) he will not be able to influence it in any way. Paul doesn´t need to know how or feel how important he is. He only needs to know how important is faith and be good at having it. That´s it. Then he can self deprecate himself all he wants. Magicians can have uffle self esteem too. Only requirement is that they believe their powers are real (that faith works) and to use them (pray with faith). That´s it.

You failed to see that magic is just for manipulating aspects of reality while prayer isn't just for asking stuff to God (it's more than that), but also to thank, "talk" and expression of love to him.

You fail to see that you are part of reality, and that it is psychologically imposible for a human being to seek for a relationship without expecting the related being to affect him in some way. You will here no one saying "Yes, I am praying but I truly hope God doesn´t shine his graceupon me!" or "Oh yes the other day I was praying and thanks God I didn´t felt his pressence!" Furthermore, you are passing through a time you don´t feel the pressence of God while praying and you already feel there is something wrong with it. If you never got out of this phase ( I am sure you will , I am just putting examples ) it would be increasengly more likely that you pray less, and the prayings you wold do would still be hoping for God to receive your love and thanks and to hopefully receive the feeling of his pressence again.

The mere feeling of trust, grace, etc that God makes you feel when praying is enough to say it is magic because it is a relationship with a supernatural force which is influencing you that is part of reality.

So as long as you are real and you are the one having the relationship with God, it is still magic

...if the purpose is just to connect (*or more precisely speak and to express love*) with the Divine, then it's not really magic.(*it's communication*)

Already explained above why I disagree with this. Further more, it would be like saying that communing with the spirits is not really magic.

Well in my 3 years in RF, my goal when posting in a debate is not to "win", but to share what I know and to compare it with what others know. The very reason why I'm on RF isn't much on debating, but to simply share my perspectives about something and that's it. Actually, I'm not rebuking your opinions, I'm simply trying to contrast in a way that you will understand it (hopefully). Neither do I wish for you or someone to believe what I say or the say "Hey, be a Catholic/ Christian". That's just not my personality. And yeah, I'm not a very "solid" Catholic, but just an ordinary teenager who have interest on my "religion". That's it.

Yeah I am very little of "solid" myself . I am very much just me

Just wanted to leave that clear, it was the reason why I felt a little uncomfortable in a 1 on 1 debate. So we are both clear it´s just a contrast of ideas.

Wait for your response :namaste

 

[Renji]

Okay, first I will pretend that no one prays for physical healing anymore and that miracles regarding physical healing have not happened since Jesus left the Earth ( I am generous like that ) .Now I am even going to pretend that the catholic church says God is not moved even by an inch on all our prayers when we pray for miracles because he doesn´t wish to be "tested" even when the "test" means we need a loved one cured or our daugthers save, or what ever. I will be generous like that even when it goes explicitly against what Jesus says, but so that it favours the general direction you wanna aim so to say that a person praying has no desire to affect the physical reailty bia the supernatural power that is God...

You seem to be confusing prayer (focusing only on it's one aspect, which is to petition) and faith withn magical thinking and that prayer and faith are the same thing. That is the problem that I can see so far. Okay Me_myself, is faith and prayer the same to you?

But there is something you just can´t deny. The physical resurrection of the body can be taken as nothing BUT a VERY supernatural effect on the physical realm. The aim of a Christian is to have an ETERNAL relationship with God, which can only happen after his body is RAISED FROM THE DEATH in a MATERIAL WAY. A body that can be touched like Jesus´s body could be touched. It is magic that has an ETERNAL effect on reality and according to catholicism, as long as you have faith in Jesus and follow the tenets of God then God WILL NOT will you away from hell. Yes, christianity says he could, but it says he WILL NOT. By this, even if none of the prayers for healing of relatives or for money or etc, that you do during your life count as magic, all the prayers that you do to have a better relationship with God and with Jesus are still prayers for the resurrection of the body which would practically be necromancy.


Self Necromancy of eternal ramifications

It's not magic but the promise of Christ. It would be "magic" if I for instance do something to raise a dead back to life or summons the spirit of the dead person.

I didn´t say christian prayer/faith is black magic (i.e: cursing) I said it was magic.

There's such thing as "Chaos Magic". If you propose that magic and prayer for intention are just the same, hence we can also do curses when praying.

Blessing is a very popular form of magic too, and it is the form christians are encouraged to participate.

Blessing comes directly from God, as opposed to magic where something is obtained through one's own "powers".

Intention is also really important in magic, many will tell you without intention there is no magic. Now, it is obvious you can´t pray for something that will harm someone else as it goes against Christ´s teachings and the message he gave when said that God listened to all: he said we are all his children.

As I said, magic uses the "energy" from the magician itself. It does have intentions too though.

God will give us whatever we want if we pray with faith. I have in my family and loved ones NUMEROUS cases in which God saved them from death at hands of seemingly imposible illnesses, astonishing doctors. The details arenot important. The practice is that Christians can and do pray with faith and manage to bring healing. The fact that this doesn´t always happen I will attest simply to a) not being for the best of the person being prayed for, as the form of magic that christian prayer procures prevents this from happening b) Quite simply, people lack the faith many times. It is a sad truth and that doesn´t mean they are bad persons. If peter that saw Jesus make miracle sin front of him, could lack faith even for a moment, how can a person who has never seen bread being multiple not be capable of doubting? Few people have faith. That´s what Jesus complained about.

It´s not easy, but Jesus abundantly said everything with faith is posible.

This is the most powerful magic: faith.

If I ask God then to turn a stone into bread than he would do it? Hmmm, smells fishy. As far as I can see, there's a problem on how you interpret a verse. When you interpret, you consider a lot of factors: the context, from what book of the bible it's written, so and so.

I didn´t say it was "more important" , I said it was important. If a magician doesn´t have any trust in the supernatural force he wants to influence (i.e: God) he will not be able to influence it in any way. Paul doesn´t need to know how or feel how important he is. He only needs to know how important is faith and be good at having it. That´s it. Then he can self deprecate himself all he wants. Magicians can have uffle self esteem too. Only requirement is that they believe their powers are real (that faith works) and to use them (pray with faith). That´s it.

You say it's 'incredibly important'. Confused? hmmm

You fail to see that you are part of reality, and that it is psychologically imposible for a human being to seek for a relationship without expecting the related being to affect him in some way.

Oh God, you go completely out of context. Aspect of reality= something you want to change.

You will here no one saying "Yes, I am praying but I truly hope God doesn´t shine his graceupon me!" or "Oh yes the other day I was praying and thanks God I didn´t felt his pressence!"

His presence is a LOVING presence. It's not magic.

Furthermore, you are passing through a time you don´t feel the pressence of God while praying and you already feel there is something wrong with it. If you never got out of this phase ( I am sure you will , I am just putting examples ) it would be increasengly more likely that you pray less, and the prayings you wold do would still be hoping for God to receive your love and thanks and to hopefully receive the feeling of his pressence again.

Oh, judge not so that you will not be judged. You've made a conclusion as if you know that I'm still on that phase right now, and even if I am, don't I remember how it feels like?

The mere feeling of trust, grace, etc that God makes you feel when praying is enough to say it is magic because it is a relationship with a supernatural force which is influencing you that is part of reality.

Influencing= changing something, out of context argument again huh?. As I already said, those things aren't changes really, just the "fruits" of praying and not it's main goal.

So as long as you are real and you are the one having the relationship with God, it is still magic

The focus of magic isn't love, but power. Prayer's focus is love to the One you are praying to.

Already explained above why I disagree with this. Further more, it would be like saying that communing with the spirits is not really magic.

And I think you know quite well of why communing spirits which is not of God is viewed as magic in the Church.

Yeah I am very little of "solid" myself . I am very much just me

Nope, because the way you think, it seems that you think that I'm an extreme Catholic. FYI, when I was in high school, I also practiced channeling, making talismans, shielding ritual and reciting spells.I'm not that innocent with this topic as you think, although I'm not really "into it" type of person. I just stopped. Would that seem like I'm so much Catholic myself?

 

[Renji]

The fact that you know God may not want to heal your father dying from cancer doesn´t mean you don´t want him to do so.

I wanted to but as I said, all lies on the will of God.

The fact that the supernatural power in question may decide not to work if he wants to does not make it cease to be a supernatural power with which you wish to change a reality. (i.e: something you are praying for) . Just makes the supernatural power less reliable for the effect.

This also goes in direct contradiction to what Jesus said about the heavenly Father that will grant anything good that his childs as in faith.




You haven´t really pointed out a difference, just details. According to your details this magic works diffrently, but as it doesn´t cease to be the manipulation of the physical realm by means of a supernatural force, it is still magic. Even if sometimes your supernaytural force doesn´t wanna help you. That opnly talks about the accuracy of the spell or the relaiabiliity of the ritual, but it doesn´t make God stop being supernatural.

The facuty of the person still relies on it´s faith, Jesus taught us that, or did he not? You may put up a verse here to cite where did Jesus said that faith was not the most important thing in prayer. Without faith you do not channel the power of God effectively. With faith you channel the power of God effectively. As someone that knows fromm the subjects of supernatural affecting reality I can tell you I understand why he said this: It is almost imposible to do a proper speel of any kind without faith, at least to the great majority of us. You need faith to move mountains.

Ask Peter, his feet know how much the lack of faith can physically hurt your feet.





So no one communicating with the Holy Spirit and all the prophets that "divined" the future because of the will of God were not christian material? Nice move!






You first paragraphs depends on the fact that believing all you described be a tenet of magic that no magic practitioner can break. It is not. Magic is the use of a supernatural force to change the physical realm. That´s it.

Just because this supernatural force can decide not to help doesn´t mean that it ceases to be magical or that the practitioner ceases to have wished ffor it to work, nor it changes the fact that it had the power to work. I am truly astonished on how much you have overlooked Jesus´s portrayal of faith btw. I have quoted more than one example of the alleged central master of your faith, and no rebutal from his words of the points I am making. Where did Jesus said that God didn´t care about the amount of faith of he who asks? He clearly said God heared everyone, but he gave preference to those with faith. Said once and twice and thrice and then many more times.

Faith is the christian´s magical power. That if you take Jesus´s words and Peter´s hurt feet into a count.


About your second paragraph, any relationship has effect on both parts, otherwise it wouldn´t be a relationship. So when one wants to have a relationship, it is psychologically imposible not to have desires (at least subconcious) to be affected by the being which one is relating to.

I mean, if you saw somebody drawing a red satanic cross inthe floor and asking Satan to commune with him and also asks him stuff from time to time wouldn´t you call that black magic?


For many white magicians they themselves are not "top priority" but the people they are helping are. Or humanity, ot you name it. Not everyone does magic for their own benefit. A lot of peopel does magic for other´s sake.




Yes, literaly. We saw him do this things literaly, unless ou doubt the bible Peter literaly walked on water with faith alone and feel when he ceased to have faith.

It is enough. According to Jesus. "Your Faith has healed you" "If you had faith with the size of a grainof mustard..." etc and etc. Again, the fact that God may choose not to answer, does not mean it is not magic. You are still affecting reality using a supernatural power ( God). A learned practicioner of this can increase his faith with time and thus his ability to affect reality (if you take Jesus seriously) in a greater way, so he indeed has more magical power. The fact that it can still flunk is something that regards the specific form of Magic that has to do with your prayer. If you think the Father that is in heaven won´t give you the good things you want, then yes , it depends to "his" "will". It would go against what Jesus said though. God serves, because he who is higher always is the one who serves the most.

Only shows, you don't really understand everything that I stated even in the simplistic terms that I shown. We're just running in circles now.

 

[Me Myself]

You seem to be confusing prayer (focusing only on it's one aspect, which is to petition) and faith withn magical thinking and that prayer and faith are the same thing. That is the problem that I can see so far. Okay Me_myself, is faith and prayer the same to you?

You seem to be confusing praying as a non magical way of thinking and acting . That Is the problem I can see so far.

Faith equals magical power in christianity.

It's not magic but the promise of Christ. It would be "magic" if I for instance do something to raise a dead back to life or summons the spirit of the dead person.

Yes it is (what abuot an argumentation on why your ritual that you must do to be raised from teh death bie the supernatural force of God is not necromancy? )

When you pray for christ to forgive your sins so that you can be resurrected in the end of time, you are effectively influencing a supernatural force to make a physical manifestation. God and Jesus are supernatural beings with supernatural powers, we can agree on that? You are asking them to do something for you and doing a ritual for it (trying not to sin, confesin when you do sin, etc) . At the end of your life , if the ritual was done correctly, the supernatural power does what you wished for because of the ritual that you made.

This is called, magic. Necromancy in this specific case.

There's such thing as "Chaos Magic". If you propose that magic and prayer for intention are just the same, hence we can also do curses when praying.

Logical fallacy. This is what yu are sayng:

A canary(Chaos magic) is a bird(magic) and it can fly(curse)

So in order for an ostrich (Christian Prayer) to be a bird (magic) it should be able to fly too.

As you see, this is not a congruent argument, because not everyne bird can fly and not every type of magic can do the same things. White Magic cannot curse.

Christian magic can´t curse neither.

Oh God, you go completely out of context. Aspect of reality= something you want to change.

Like yourself. Does a relationship with God not change you in any way?

I mean it´s incredibly common of peole to say their lives have changed since they converted. They are doing this bia a supernatural power (God). So they changed reality bia a supernatural power.

This is defined by the oxford dictionary as magic.

Blessing comes directly from God, as opposed to magic where something is obtained through one's own "powers".

The importance relies on the fact that you are using supernatural powers. It does not in any way need to be your own powers. The important part is to direct this outside supernatural powers with our will ( / faith)

And I think you know quite well of why communing spirits which is not of God is viewed as magic in the Church.

Like angels? I know the catholic church doesn´t see talking to the Holy Spirit as magic. What I don´t know is why actually.

It meets the Oxford´s dictionary criteria.

If I ask God then to turn a stone into bread than he would do it? Hmmm, smells fishy. As far as I can see, there's a problem on how you interpret a verse. When you interpret, you consider a lot of factors: the context, from what book of the bible it's written, so and so.

It´s on the 4 testaments o.o.... is as reliable as it gets.

And yes, with enough faith you can turn a stone into a bread if you can move mountains. Again, if Peter that saw all the miracles that Jesus did with his own eyes could doubt and fall from the water, what make you think even 99.9999% of humanity has enough faith to even give a step in the water in the first place? Faith is not only a superficial thought. When Jesus talked abuot faith, he talked about FAITH. I know I´ve changed things with my prayers to God, and I know always that I have been able to pray with enough faith I have got what I´ve asked.

There was nothing in the dark when Jesus spoke, it was abundantly clear "ask and you will receive, knock and the door will be open, seek and you will find". There was not "unless it´s too hard" clause there. Not anywhere. He gave the powers to the apostles to do miracles too. What is there to think we can´t if we don´t have enough faith? he truly said too that bigger miracles than his would be done in the future. I say he had a lot of faith in us...

His presence is a LOVING presence. It's not magic.

Do you have any IDEA how powerful a spell done with love (i.e: compassion) can be? Love is about the best battery you can get. A loving supernatural pressence that comes after you prayed is pretty much magic indeed.

Oh, judge not so that you will not be judged. You've made a conclusion as if you know that I'm still on that phase right now, and even if I am, don't I remember how it feels like?

hopefully you8 are! but as you say, if you keep on praying because of the momery of the feeling you are still praying because it gives you a benefical feeling of comunion with this supernatural(!) divine Love, then the ritual you are doing still has a lot to do with having a result come into your life through a supernatural loving force.

Influencing= changing something, out of context argument again huh?. As I already said, those things aren't changes really, just the "fruits" of praying and not it's main goal.

Either the prayer intends to have an influence with you (and I would hope you understand you do are indeed part of reality) or in reality (healing for a loved one, protection, helping him be more virtuous, etc)

How cna you say it is not a change? don´t you feel different when you are in grace? don´t you feel different when you are in peace? don´t you feel different when you feel love and happiness? o.o.... are you sure?

If it is changing your emotions then it is changing enough. You are using a supernatural loving being to make you feel something bia a relationship. In other words you are changing reality (your emotional reality) by a SUPERNATURAL force. So according to oxford dictionary, it´s magic.

The focus of magic isn't love, but power. Prayer's focus is love to the One you are praying to.

Magic is a method, not an objective in itself. the foucs of the magic is decided by the magician, if you decide to make love, compasion, peace the focus of your magic, you do. It´s is generaly called white magic, though further denominations can be applied.

I wanted to but as I said, all lies on the will of God.

It doesn´t change a thing. God is still a supernatural force that influences reality. That, or everyone praying to him for his daugthers to be safe, for him to give them better morals and to fortify their faiths, for him to help us in our daily lives, is wasting his time.

Naturaly, as a theist , I would deem that unreal. God listen to us and helps us in a daily basis if we pray to him. So of course prayer brings a supernatural aid to us on our lifes, and because of that, it would be appropiately called as magic by the Oxford dictionary.

Nope, because the way you think, it seems that you think that I'm an extreme Catholic. FYI, when I was in high school, I also practiced channeling, making talismans, shielding ritual and reciting spells.I'm not that innocent with this topic as you think, although I'm not really "into it" type of person. I just stopped. Would that seem like I'm so much Catholic myself?

Why not? Catholic is alowed to sin, that´s what confession is all about.

About extremist, no,Nope really. For what I hear and what I´ve seen of you I have yet not found any reason to believe you are an "extreme" catholic. A person that honestly loves his religion, tries to be faithful to it and to learn more about it , sure, but at least to know I have never had any reason to believe youare an extreme catholic

 

[Renji]

You seem to be confusing praying as a non magical way of thinking and acting . That Is the problem I can see so far.

Nope, your confused with faith and prayer, that's the problem here. By looking back on your posts you see prayer and faith as equal. And you see faith as "magic" even if the bible condemns any form of magic, hence the word of God would seem to contradict itself on that sense.

Faith equals magical power in christianity.

Already told you why it isn't.

Yes it is (what abuot an argumentation on why your ritual that you must do to be raised from teh death bie the supernatural force of God is not necromancy? )

When you pray for christ to forgive your sins so that you can be resurrected in the end of time, you are effectively influencing a supernatural force to make a physical manifestation. God and Jesus are supernatural beings with supernatural powers, we can agree on that? You are asking them to do something for you and doing a ritual for it (trying not to sin, confesin when you do sin, etc) . At the end of your life , if the ritual was done correctly, the supernatural power does what you wished for because of the ritual that you made.This is called, magic. Necromancy in this specific case.

So far, you're just twisting (or confused) the teachings of the church as I can see. Can't argue you on that sense.

Logical fallacy. This is what yu are sayng:

A canary(Chaos magic) is a bird(magic) and it can fly(curse)

So in order for an ostrich (Christian Prayer) to be a bird (magic) it should be able to fly too.

As you see, this is not a congruent argument, because not everyne bird can fly and not every type of magic can do the same things. White Magic cannot curse.

Christian magic can´t curse neither.

It's still magic though that alters an aspect of reality if you look at it. Hence, meets th criterion of oxford dictionary.

Like yourself. Does a relationship with God not change you in any way?

I mean it´s incredibly common of peole to say their lives have changed since they converted. They are doing this bia a supernatural power (God). So they changed reality bia a supernatural power.

Is it "supernatural power" or the loving relationship with God that changes them?

The importance relies on the fact that you are using supernatural powers. It does not in any way need to be your own powers. The important part is to direct this outside supernatural powers with our will ( / faith)

But magic, as viewed by some of the practitioners is directing your own energy to effect a change in any way.

Like angels? I know the catholic church doesn´t see talking to the Holy Spirit as magic. What I don´t know is why actually.

Because it's just "talking" as you said.

It´s on the 4 testaments o.o.... is as reliable as it gets.

It is, but your interpretation seems to be coming from the outer space and not how we Christians actually see it. And yeah, I already told how a christian see those verses.

And yes, with enough faith you can turn a stone into a bread if you can move mountains. Again, if Peter that saw all the miracles that Jesus did with his own eyes could doubt and fall from the water, what make you think even 99.9999% of humanity has enough faith to even give a step in the water in the first place? Faith is not only a superficial thought. When Jesus talked abuot faith, he talked about FAITH. I know I´ve changed things with my prayers to God, and I know always that I have been able to pray with enough faith I have got what I´ve asked.

There was nothing in the dark when Jesus spoke, it was abundantly clear "ask and you will receive, knock and the door will be open, seek and you will find". There was not "unless it´s too hard" clause there. Not anywhere. He gave the powers to the apostles to do miracles too. What is there to think we can´t if we don´t have enough faith? he truly said too that bigger miracles than his would be done in the future. I say he had a lot of faith in us...

But then Jesus said to the devil, "a man does not live by bread alone...." and "though shall not put the lord thy God to the test. Your examples are such of that, it's like asking God to do something just to prove that he's powerful or something.

Do you have any IDEA how powerful a spell done with love (i.e: compassion) can be? Love is about the best battery you can get. A loving supernatural pressence that comes after you prayed is pretty much magic indeed.

The focus of magic though is power, not love. Love can be another "ingredient", but the focal point is power/energy.

hopefully you8 are!but as you say, if you keep on praying because of the momery of the feeling you are still praying because it gives you a benefical feeling of comunion with this supernatural(!) divine Love, then the ritual you are doing still has a lot to do with having a result come into your life through a supernatural loving force.

A fallacy (see, I'm using your own words too.), I do not pray because of the feeling (feeling is superficial) but because I love God. The effect on some people is the "state of grace".

How cna you say it is not a change? don´t you feel different when you are in grace? don´t you feel different when you are in peace? don´t you feel different when you feel love and happiness? o.o.... are you sure?

Would I say it if I'm not? Who would like to make an *** out of himself? It's not a change, but a "consolation" or the "fruit" of an intimate relationship with God. Don't believe me? Read the life of the saints! And FYI, I studied in a Catholic school during my elem, high school and 1 year of my college life. If I'm not sure, then I didn't learn anything. XD

If it is changing your emotions then it is changing enough. You are using a supernatural loving being to make you feel something bia a relationship. In other words you are changing reality (your emotional reality) by a SUPERNATURAL force. So according to oxford dictionary, it´s magic.

The purpose is not the change in "feeling" that is the focus in prayer. When you pray, it may or may not change how you "feel".

Magic is a method, not an objective in itself. the foucs of the magic is decided by the magician, if you decide to make love, compasion, peace the focus of your magic, you do. It´s is generaly called white magic, though further denominations can be applied.

Then let me tell you, prayer is another "method" which is used simply to profess, thanks, express and ask God of something through his divine providence (you only focused on this by the way, it's as if praying is just for asking favors). The focus though of prayer is the relationship between God and man. Also, a lot of faith has different perspective on which is magic, and which is not.

It doesn´t change a thing. God is still a supernatural force that influences reality. That, or everyone praying to him for his daugthers to be safe, for him to give them better morals and to fortify their faiths, for him to help us in our daily lives, is wasting his time.

Naturaly, as a theist , I would deem that unreal. God listen to us and helps us in a daily basis if we pray to him. So of course prayer brings a supernatural aid to us on our lifes, and because of that, it would be appropiately called as magic by the Oxford dictionary.

Aid of God does not necessarily mean that if you ask something of God, it will just go down from heaven or be conjured out of somewhere. The reason why God has given you intellect, skills and a lot of other means is for you to use when you need it. His aid would then be like a form of guidance.

Why not? Catholic is alowed to sin, that´s what confession is all about.

About extremist, no,Nope really. For what I hear and what I´ve seen of you I have yet not found any reason to believe you are an "extreme" catholic. A person that honestly loves his religion, tries to be faithful to it and to learn more about it , sure, but at least to know I have never had any reason to believe youare an extreme catholic

Lmao, "I don't love my church" but I defend it to you... makes sense I say.

 

[Me Myself]

Nope, your confused with faith and prayer, that's the problem here. By looking back on your posts you see prayer and faith as equal. And you see faith as "magic" even if the bible condemns any form of magic, hence the word of God would seem to contradict itself on that sense.

I won´t argue if the catholic interpretation of what they think the only word of God is contradict itself in general, but it naturally shouldn´t be a factor in this discussion. I know the catholic church doesn´t see what they do as magic, I am merely saying they are wrong. But this is not an argument, is the whole issue of the debate I just answered it to you first time because for some reason you thought that my "problem" was confusing it with magic when it is the very thing we are arguing xD. So let´s leave this at that

So far, you're just twisting (or confused) the teachings of the church as I can see. Can't argue you on that sense.
say.

Why of course you can! I have faith in you

seriously though, you have not once exaplained to me how the reasoning is wrong. Were am I twisting?

Correct me anywhere along the way:

Will God resurrect people?

CC : Yes

Is God a supernatural force?

CC: God is the only supernatural force, the other ones are preternatural. In any case, yes, God is a supernatural force

Can I do anything to ensure that I am resurrected with all this resurrected people?

CC: Why of course you can! You must do Y and X change sin your behaviour and accept Jesus as your personal savior. Remember that you need to confess all your sins and there is also a sacrament(**ritual**) to tak if you are on the brink of dead to ensure that your sins are removed and thus you are in comunion with God and that then he will indeed and surely ensure your resurrection.

Did I twist it in any of those factors?

Because all those factors describe the use of a supernatural force and the use of rituals to be sure you are raised from the dead. This is called necromancy. You have dodged this particular argument a lot actually. Please say were am I twisting it?

It's still magic though that alters an aspect of reality if you look at it. Hence, meets th criterion of oxford dictionary.

What christianity or ostriches? If you are talking about christianity, I agree of course

If you are talking about ostriches, I agree even more. Nothing taps into supernatural powers like an ostrich

so we finally agree that Christianity is magic accoding to plain english?

Is it "supernatural power" or the loving relationship with God that changes them?

The relationship with a supernatural being is definetely supernatural in nature(supernature!).

I wouldn´t say a strong relationship with God is powerless neither.

I mean, not only it betters your life and yourself as aperson todayl, with the appropiate further ritual (confesions, etc) it may even raise your from the dead :yes:

So you asking me if it is supernatural pwoer "or" the loving relationship with God is like If I asked you if this is an bird OR an ostrich:

But magic, as viewed by some of the practitioners is directing your own energy to effect a change in any way.

And catholicism is viewed by a lot of people as wishful thinking. It doesn´t make it true though. The Oxford dictionary doesn´t need it to be "your" powers at all. Most magicians wouldn´t say they need to be "your" powers. That some minority can only work that way is unfortunate to that minority.

Because it's just "talking" as you said.

Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle. (request)
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.(request)
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host -
by the Divine Power of God -
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,(request)
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen.


not just "talking". You are asking a preternatural force to spiritualy protect you. If you were doing this with anything not angelic anyone would immidiatly call it magic, the church would surely do so too BTW. They just don´t call it that way when it has to do with their angels, saints and "stuff" because then they couldn´t use "Magic" as a pejorative term.

But then Jesus said to the devil, "a man does not live by bread alone...." and "though shall not put the lord thy God to the test. Your examples are such of that, it's like asking God to do something just to prove that he's powerful or something.

Trust me, terminal cancer patient´s mothers don´t ask God to please let their boys live just to see how powerful he is. When Satan tempted Christ, he told him to do something completely unnecessary like jumping off a cliff just to prove God´s power and for no other reason. When you cast out demons like when catholic priests do it they are not "testing" God, they are requesting his supernatural power to fit a necessary goal.

The focus of magic though is power, not love. Love can be another "ingredient", but the focal point is power/energy.

Depends on the spell and type of magic. Christian magic could be entirely devoted to love and it wouldn´t at all mess with the concept of it being magic. As I told you, if you focus it at love (at least if we are talking compassion and the kind of love Christ had for us) it would be specificaly White magic.

The "focus" is subjective anyways, and has nothing to do with the definition of Magic.

 

[Me Myself]

A fallacy (see, I'm using your own words too.), I do not pray because of the feeling (feeling is superficial) but because I love God. The effect on some people is the "state of grace".

Psychologically, we all do everything because of either the "feeling" behind such actions or the gain for such actions.

If you do it for the gain, then it is because of the specific objectives God (the supernatural power in case) will fulfill for you, and would then be magic.

If you do it for the feeling, you are still changing your feelings because of this supernatural being, and thus it would be magic again, because you are part of reality being changed because of a relationship with a supernatural force.

Would I say it if I'm not? Who would like to make an *** out of himself? It's not a change, but a "consolation" or the "fruit" of an intimate relationship with God. Don't believe me? Read the life of the saints! And FYI, I studied in a Catholic school during my elem, high school and 1 year of my college life. If I'm not sure, then I didn't learn anything. XD

How do you feel you have this "fruit"? It is something like "Humm... I feel completely the same as always. that means that I am in grace right now" or is it more like "I feel like I am in grace right now" ? As long as you are able to recognize a state in you "with" and "without" grace, there is discrimination, and for that, a difference most exist. For a difference to exist between to states of being a change most have occured. So yeah, you would have to somehow feel different.

The purpose is not the change in "feeling" that is the focus in prayer. When you pray, it may or may not change how you "feel".

Psychologically speaking, every action you take that has a significance for you even if just a minimal significance will change how you feel. So any dealing with the supernatural would be deemed magic, as it would change how you fee and you are part of reality.

Aid of God does not necessarily mean that if you ask something of God, it will just go down from heaven or be conjured out of somewhere. The reason why God has given you intellect, skills and a lot of other means is for you to use when you need it. His aid would then be like a form of guidance.

A guidance that comes from a supernatural force is still a supernatural power affecting you that are part of reality. So it still counts as magic. Spiritism to be more exact. It further reminds me Shaman King ^0^

Lmao, "I don't love my church" but I defend it to you... makes sense I say.

hum... you have a problem of love towards your faith, your community or towatrds what? is okay, it´s not part of the actual discussion anyways. I only thought you put more soul (PUN!) into it. But if I was wrong, I was wrong.

 

[Renji]

So tell me Me_Myself... If faith and prayer the same or not? Your answer depends if this discussion will continue or not..