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Matthew, Mark, Luke Vs the Gospel of John

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by wizanda, Jan 11, 2015.

  1. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith.
     
  2. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Firstly sorry for not replying earlier, had already gone over many of your arguments previously; yet it wasn't patient of me, not to do so again. :)
    There wasn't an end on Mark.
    Matthew is clearly added after the creation of the Trinity.
    We've got the conversation about the temple being torn down, he never said it would be rebuilt in 3 days....

    He never said anything about it being his body
    , the Pharisees found false witnesses to make it up, as stated in both Matthew and Mark.
    Now agreed you can justify the false testimony in John, by making it fit with his statements elsewhere; yet considering it is said to be false testimony, why would you bother.
    No scholars say they're parables, as they're only metaphors...

    A parable is a story, that has a symbolic moral meaning; which also interlink with numerous passages within the Tanakh; so clearly it isn't the same person speaking within John.
    The references are speaking to Jews who know the holy spirit has always existed.... John makes it seem it is sent, which is illogical.
    Then why considering being born again is a fundamental to the Christian belief, isn't it recorded anywhere else in the Synoptic gospels? :confused:
    If you check the same conversation in the other gospels it doesn't match...

    In Luke's version the Pharisees were the ones saying he said 'Ego I-mee (I Am)'.
    Mat 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.” :innocent:
     
  3. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Parables have multiple similes in them, and are far more advanced; interlinking multiple aspects of the Tanakh in a single metaphoric story.

    Parables of Jesus - Wikipedia as this shows there are none in John.
    Actually just repeating what John said, when it can be shown to be made up, isn't covering it, it is just dogma, and not debate.
    That is an exaggeration of the event to make him look violent, which is what the Sanhedrin thought, not what others of the time saw.
    He still went in disguise, and made it look like he wasn't going; which is still a deception, and purposely put there, with you now defending the lies.
    It is how we gain eternal life which was the question asked to Yeshua, he replies by following the commandments, and giving up wealth; not to believe in his name, which is said 11 times in the Gospel of John.
    Sin is atoned for by repentance as Yeshua, and the Law was teaching.
    This is where John is made up, and trying to impose bad timeline understandings; Joel 2 happens at Judgement day, not before it.

    It is far easier to remove John, and follow Yeshua; than defend a lie, and receive nothing.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  4. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    sorry to be sooooooo late

    did anyone mention?
    the Carpenter suffered the hand of John and baptism
    He then went to the wilderness

    but John's gospel has Him snaring two disciples
    and is changing water into wine on day three

    same Fellow?
     
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  5. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Thank you for noticing the errors, appreciate the input; unfortunately can't use it as a direct debate point, as the sequence of events are different in all Gospels, it needs to be direct statements we can show are blatantly flawed.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  6. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    I was working from your title

    flawed statements?

    Jesus taught in parables.....
    if you have ears that hear.....you would understand
    if not....the parable would confound your thinking

    the flaw is not in the teaching
    it is within the listener
     
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  7. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Read the word in Greek. The meaning is changed in modern English. To us a parable is a story. In the Greek it is not just a story although it can be. It's not that we see anything by ourselves but it's hidden so God can show us.

    You haven't shown anything to be made up. Only in your own mind.
    Were you there? Can you prove your version of what happened so long ago?
    If He said He wasn't going yet then logically we realize He was going later on. Jesus taught His disciples to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves" (Matthew 10:16) Don't judge according to appearance but judge righteous judgment! That is something else that Jesus taught. Whether you believe it or not.
    You aren't even coming close to understanding Yeshua! For example explain to us how and when the new Covenant began and the old Covenant ended? Explain that first! Then I'll think you may be able to explain a few other things!
    No one who denies the new Covenant can truly explain how blood is given for small sins but large sins are just forgiven without any blood required. That's because they require the blood of the Messiah only. There is no animal that can atone for these sins. Yet God Himself said that blood is given for atonement. (Lev. 17:11) So anyone who denies the new Covenant and the blood of Jesus (Matthew 26:28) they have to deal with the fact that there is no atonement for sins. It's not just John but all the gospels say the same thing.
    The outpouring predicted by Joel began on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4, Acts 2:16) and continues until now. I am not defending a lie. I have zero fear for the truth. I've warned people on this Religious Forums that the scriptures are not easy to understand but only God can show them the truth.
     
  8. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Actually in a court of Law, i've shown the testimony of what was originally said in Matthew 24:1-2...

    Then what was claimed to be false testimony in Matthew 26:59-61, Mark 14:55-59...

    Then John committing perjury, by reiterating what we know to be false statements in John 2:19-22.

    It is then only someones belief that John is a true testimony, that makes them believe he said 3 days, as they're ignoring the other evidence.
    We have 3 other witnesses explaining what did happen; none of the Synoptic Gospel writers say about a whip being made (Matthew 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-17, Luke 19:45-46).
    This isn't contextual to the Gospel of John, and my understanding of the covenant being nullified is not how mainstream Christianity teaches it anyways...

    The covenant was nullified in Zechariah 11, when they paid the 30 pieces of silver, and at the last supper Ezekiel 4, Ezekiel 5 was then fulfilled that they were given a defiled covenant before being cut off.
    Isaiah 6 has his sins forgiven by God's power, not by blood, just repentance; Yeshua and John the Baptist came teaching repentance, and baptism for the forgiveness of sin (Matthew 9:13).
    Acts is like a fairy tale, they made it up to fill in the gaps...

    Joel 2 has not happened yet, and people would have to be naive to think it has...

    There is no Messianic Age yet, and there was no destruction of the whole of mankind back then.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe if you have a dated diary that would help but I don't remember the gospels providing much in the way of dates and any idea that things are strictly serial needs some evidence because The Holy Spirit does his own thing in bringing back those memories when they did the writing.
     
  10. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    The other obvious possibility is that these parts were just made up.

    There’s an interesting trend with the Gospels: the older the are, the less fantastical they are.

    Mark has very few claims of divinity or miracle stories. The original version didn’t even have the Resurrection - it just ends with Jesus’s body missing and everyone being confused and afraid.

    From there, the story seems to snowball, and the further in time the authorship is from the events it describes, the more grandiose the story becomes.
     
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  11. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    You're not paying attention to details. Both the testimonies in Matthew 26 and Mark 14 both make it sound as if Jesus Himself would destroy the temple to build it again in 3 days. That is not what Jesus actually said in John 2. He said to them "Destroy this temple ..." He was saying they would kill Him, but He would rise after 3 days by His own power.

    He made them the killers while He was the Life giver. They made it sound in Matthew 26 and Mark 14 as if He was the destroyer and restorer of the physical temple. Which is exactly what they thought He was talking about in John 2:20.

    So you haven't shown anything. Yes they gave false testimony and did not even agree together. However what they said was based off of the truth but they twisted it. The book of John is actually supported and verified by the statements in Matthew and Mark. These all actually support one another.

    You cannot prove an actual contradiction here.
    So because they did not go into details therefore John is lying? With this argument, you may not honestly claim you're disproving John. John was obviously privy to details that the others did not have or did not see necessary to mention. But that's expected in eye witness accounts.

    I believe Jesus was right to make a whip. In fact they deserved it for being cheats.
    Incorrect. The new Covenant is through resurrection. It is a entirely new life. Therefore a new Covenant with God.

    Can't you understand that first someone is born of the flesh? Secondly when they die and rise from the dead they're born again but this time not of the flesh. It's of the Breath of God. That is the Spirit of God. Now they're born of the Spirit/Breath of God. That's the difference. That is why anyone in this case cannot be under the old Covenant of Moses. They're dead to it forever. The new Covenant is new Life.

    So you argue that the power of God is enough to forgive the worst sins without any blood being shed. Yet, in the Law of Moses many animals had to be killed for the atonement of small sins? According to you then, God had all those innocent animals die for no reason because He just forgave large sins no problem.

    Yes it is by God's power that anyone can be forgiven. But no one can explain where the power comes from who denies the new Covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ. That's my point. Only those who believe in Jesus' blood as the atonement.

    Jesus blood is the atonement for all sins past, present and future. He did not just atone for the sins of those who came after but all those who came before even Adam and Eve. At least anyone who repents that is.

    You seem to have a form of godliness and yet want to deny the power of God. Look if God is real then He does things. He acts and He performs miracles at any time of history. Now not being excepted. If God is not real; then the whole Bible is fake not just the book of Acts. Jesus surely did everything written in the Bible. So He raised the dead and did all that the witnesses have said.

    The way to follow God is to seek Him with faith from the heart. Then God will reveal the truth to that one! Now anyone who rests in the wisdom of this world and relies on their fellow man for guidance. These will perish because their breath goes out and they do not breathe again. (Psalm 146:4) In the scriptures their whole life is compared to a single breath. (James 4:14) A vapor that passes away and is no more. Now the Breath(the Spirit) of God is not so. The one who breathes the Breath of God may live forever. That's what Joel spoke of, that's what John spoke of and that's what Luke spoke of in the book of Acts.

    This is what Moses wished when they told him that there were prophets in the camp (prophesying because the holy Spirit was on them) and they needed to be stopped. Moses contradicted. He wished that all the Israelites had the holy Spirit just as he did. (Numbers 11:25-29) The significance of Joel's prophecy should be understood in this light. That before this time the holy Spirit was for the prophets not just anyone. But now we have access to this just as the prophets had as a free gift from God.

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
     
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  12. dmap

    dmap God is good and beautiful

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    Yet even the synoptic gospels radically contradict one another. The reason is because the Bible is fiction, that is the answer.
     
  13. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    By more than one witness we can establish a case, and fair enough lots of things are wonky between all accounts; yet we can still piece it together, it is the pieces that belong in another jigsaw puzzle that we should be concerned by, as it confuses the overall picture.
    Of course we can not prove the contradictions, when someone is using the Gospel of John as a truth to examine the case by...

    Until someone is thinking logically, we will never actually prove any contradictions.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
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  14. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    if I'm not mistaken....John numbers the days immediately following the Carpenter's baptism
     
  15. dmap

    dmap God is good and beautiful

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    Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
     
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  16. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I think your definition needs to be more terse. It’s not fiction; that’s just not the type of literature we find in the texts. We find poetry, allegory, metaphor, parable, gospel, history, law. But not fiction. I think you mean that the Bible is largely myth.
    Myth speaks to truth through storytelling and metaphor. Fiction is written merely for entertainment.
     
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  17. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep <--- Bethulah

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    1. the audience
    Mat.13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    Jon.20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name
    .

    2. witness vs hearsay
    Mat.26:61 And said, This [fellow] said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
    Mar.14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands. [compiler, not witness.]

    Jon.2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. ... 2:21 But He spake of the temple of His body.
    14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    Rev.21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


    3. why the whip
    Jon.2:15 And when He had made a scourge of small cords, He drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen

    4. why in secret
    Jon.7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill Him.
    7:5 For neither did His brethren believe in Him.
    7:8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for My time is not yet full come.
    7:10 But when His brethren were gone up, then went He also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.
    7:11 Then the Jews sought Him at the feast, and said, Where is He?

    5. how comes eternal life
    Jon.12:50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.
    Jon.14:21 He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him.
    Rev.3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name.


    6. blood of the new covenant
    Mat.9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.*
    26:28 For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.*


    7. to the 10-tribed nation
    Mat.15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    Mat. 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.*
    Mat.28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, unto the end of the world.


    8. the witnesses
    Mat.26:37 And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.

    9. versus
    Mat.5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled.
    7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work anomia. [a nomos = without Law]

    Jon.12:50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.
    Mat.16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? [question of the ages]


    10. because, equals
    Mat.23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.

    11. one Spirit, one Shepherd
    Jon.1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon Him.
    10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.


    12. new bottles, born from above
    Mat.9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
    Jon.3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    ________________________
    * The Jews were righteous by paying for blood sacrifice at the temple. Lost Sheep of the 10-tribed House of Israel didn't have that upon which to fall. Mercy not Sacrifice applied specifically to them. For they are the nation which brings forth the fruits of the Kingdom Gospel. From the hands of Judah/Levi/Benjamin the Kingdom of God was ripped.

    =======================
    In other words, wizanda, you are entirely wrong about John's gospel.
     
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  18. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep <--- Bethulah

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    Jeremias 38:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda: 32 not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took hold of their hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; for they abode not in My covenant, and I disregarded them, saith the Lord. 33 For this is My covenant which I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will surely put My laws into their mind, and write them on their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people. 34 And they shall not at all teach every one his fellow citizen, and every one his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them: for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more. 35 Thus saith the Lord, who gives the sun for a light by day, the moon and the stars for a light by night, and makes a roaring in the sea, so that the waves thereof roar; the Lord Almighty is his name: 36 if these ordinances cease from before Me, saith the Lord, then shall the family of Israel cease to be a nation before Me forever."

    The Law
    Mat.5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled.

    Written On The Heart
    Jon.14:26 "But the Comforter, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

    Mat.26:28 For this is My Blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Jesus the Christ fulfills Jeremiah 38.
     
    #178 OtherSheep, Nov 20, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  19. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Edit your post to say Jeremiah 31:31-36, which is what you're citing.

    Then read the chapter, and see that when that happens at the start of Jeremiah 31:1, all the Tribes of Israel are united, which happens at the Messianic Age.

    Will get back to your other arguments later...

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  20. dmap

    dmap God is good and beautiful

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    All four gospels contradict in important ways. But this doesn't matter at all because the Bible is fiction.
     
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