• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Mathematical modeling of the virus

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
That's a very interesting article. It brings up something that most are ignoring at least in government and the media - a second wave assuming the infection rate dies down over the summer.

Of course I'm crossing the boundary into fantasy land, but if people were thinking and planning accordingly, we'd be in really good shape and ready for an expected rise in the infection rate later this year.

Given the ignorance and especially willful ignorance on the part of too many, I doubt such science-drive good sense will be noticed let alone given serious consideration.

d41586-020-01003-6_17859620.jpg
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I'm wondering if covid-19 will become seasonal like the flu on a permanent basis.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Lots of good, basic info on the endeavor. This is a general audience article.

Special report: The simulations driving the world’s response to COVID-19

Excellent article, and reflects the research I am doing, but on a more sophisticated level. Several important points that I disagree with concerning the Imperial college possible fatality rates. I believe they are far too high considering the nature and extent of the COVAG-19 virus from the beginning. It was apparent from the Wuhan statistics that the virus heavily impacted the elderly and 81%+ of those infected had weak to no symptoms. This does not fit the Imperial College high estimates of fatalities The second wave is also hypothetical, and I have to take a wait and see on this one, and see if the infection persists like the H1N1 2008-9 pandemic.

the predictions and assessments of his 'advisors have been all over the place, and there later, ah . . . after the fact predictions sort of fit my previous predictions, but with the bogus claim of 'defeating the the virus.'.

The natural bell curve path of the virus fits my predictions in the past as between late April to May centering on May 1 as a fairly regular natural virus bell curve tapering off in May into maybe June. Actually around the world the path of the virus bell curve in larger western countries is following this bell curve depending on when the pandemic began in that country or region. Countries like Italy infected early have a predictable earlier peak then the USA. Russia was infected later, and therefore will have a more prolonged bell curve. The smaller humps withing the larger pattern are later infections in populations of those in some way isolated that did not have immunity. This is the problem with when we lift the measures to reduce the spread of the virus, because much of the country has been somewhat isolated from the virus like some counties in North Carolina, and subject to later infections.

My predictions of fatalities in the USA was 15-30,000, but the spread of the virus by many infected with little or no symptom upped my predictions to 40 to 50,000 which are more reasonable based on the history of this pandemic without the wild predictions made by some without any basis in the actual history of the virus. The poor health of the elderly and vulnerable population in the West likely contributed to the higher fatality rate. There is another factor that I consider possible that the countries in the Orient have herd immunity from coevolution with coronaviruses, as described by the regional coevolution of Herpes viruses with their hosts, but The Lurch strongly disagrees. This may explain part of the difference between the infection rate in the Orient and the West, notwithstanding the fact that countries like South Korea and Japan were far more aggressive and proactive in dealing with the pandemic.

I also made the prediction the Trump would do a victory dance to claim his efforts will defeat the virus, and like China claiming they defeated the virus, and no as in past pandemics the Virus does what the virus does. We may implement measures to reduced the fatalities, but no we cannot defeat the virus anymore than we can not defeat the flu nor simple colds.

By the way the fatality rate from country to country and region to region in the West is more correlated to the elderly age percentage and vulnerability of the population then any difference in the efforts of the individual countries implemented to reduce impact of the COVAG-19 pandemic. Northern Italy has the highest average age than most countries. at 79.9 See: Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) – Statistics and Research. The best source I can fined on the daily reporting of the data.

There is a possible correlation that in the Orient the elderly population is in much better health than in Western countries. When I was in China the older generations were in the parks with me doing hours of Tai Chi and other exercises. Unfortunately the younger generations in the Orient are not in as good health as the older generations,
 
Last edited:

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The Middle Eastern coronovirus (MERS CoV/"camel flu") infectious peak is usually in the summer. :(

I believe viruses are distinctly regional in nature and origin. Smne are seasonal and cyclic some are not. SARS just came and went away and did not come back..
 
Last edited:
One thing we can depend on is perpetual emergence (and re-emergence) of ever new species of pathogens. The more the Earth overpopulates, the more stealthfully they fester. Depending on how often or how long we want to be brought to our knees, an infinite medical arsenal may not even suffice. But if it does, it would just prolong suffering and agony before wave X emanates from the primordial cesspools of humanity. I wouldn't be amazed if the next thing to contend with were to spawn out of the Amazon, which is being destroyed.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Seems a reasonable possibility up until a vaccine is deployed en masse.

Except the vaccine won't work. The CDC admits that it many years the current flu vaccine is well under 50% effective (in 2014-2015 it was only 19% effective). My prediction: Herd immunity is coming, whether we like it or not. We cannot control nature. In the meantime, if we try to lockdown until an ineffective vaccine is produced, hundreds of thousands of people will die of malnutrition, starvation, or suicide due to a failed economy. I believe the ensuing economic catastrophe due to a futile attempt to control nature will be worse than the virus.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Except the vaccine won't work. The CDC admits that it many years the current flu vaccine is well under 50% effective (in 2014-2015 it was only 19% effective). My prediction: Herd immunity is coming, whether we like it or not. We cannot control nature. In the meantime, if we try to lockdown until an ineffective vaccine is produced, hundreds of thousands of people will die of malnutrition, starvation, or suicide due to a failed economy. I believe the ensuing economic catastrophe due to a futile attempt to control nature will be worse than the virus.

Fortunately the history of viruses and their hosts will not be catastrophic. Viruses have been with all life forms since the beginning, and evolve with their hosts. It is a natural relationship. Viruses thrive when their host survives, Yes we are now essentially one world where epidemic viruses become pandemic will happen on a regular basis, and we will survive. The vaccines vary from virus to virus sometimes the work very well sometimes they don't, but they do contribute to our natural herd immunity. There is also coevolution between viruses and their hosts which contributes to the relationship.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Except the vaccine won't work. The CDC admits that it many years the current flu vaccine is well under 50% effective (in 2014-2015 it was only 19% effective). My prediction: Herd immunity is coming, whether we like it or not. We cannot control nature. In the meantime, if we try to lockdown until an ineffective vaccine is produced, hundreds of thousands of people will die of malnutrition, starvation, or suicide due to a failed economy. I believe the ensuing economic catastrophe due to a futile attempt to control nature will be worse than the virus.
You're comparing an unstable virus with a stable one.
The flu virus is genetically unstable; it's constantly changing. Manufacturers have to make an educated guess each year at the expected antigenic profile of next seasons virus.
The current Covid-19 virus, thus far, appears much more stable.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You're comparing an unstable virus with a stable one.
The flu virus is genetically unstable; it's constantly changing. Manufacturers have to make an educated guess each year at the expected antigenic profile of next seasons virus.
The current Covid-19 virus, thus far, appears much more stable.

I do not think 'unstable' applies here. In reality the COVAG-19 virus is following a very predictable pattern in relation to the host, us. Though there are consistent differences between viruses, such as

H1N1 viruses: Coronavirus: How H1N1 cases and deaths compare to Covid-19

Unlike the coronavirus, the disease was more deadly for younger demographics. It was estimated that 80 percent of H1N1 victims worldwide were younger than 65 years of age. By far almost all infected were not asymptomatic of mild symptoms.

COVAG-19:In contrast by far the majority of the infected with serious illness and fatalities were over 65, and the proportion of the fatalities and severe cases in the different Western countries was proportional to the elderly population. The mild infections and asymptomatic cases of COVAG-19 were likely 80%+. What this means if isolation unless it is extreme isolation of the vulnerable and elderly will have limited success.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
My predictions of fatalities in the USA was 15-30,000, but the spread of the virus by many infected with little or no symptom upped my predictions to 40 to 50,000
I hope you are right this time but with your last prediction falsified within about a week, I don't have much confidence.
(According to Coronavirus Dashboard 34,522 deaths in the US at the moment. Days to falsify your new prediction assuming a constant rate: 8)
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I do not think 'unstable' applies here. In reality the COVAG-19 virus is following a very predictable pattern in relation to the host, us. Though there are consistent differences between viruses, such as....
I think you're missing my point. Some viruses evolve quickly, some are more stable. Smallpox and polio are stable. A vaccination will last for decades. Influenza, on the other hand, generates new antigenic surfaces constantly, it's 'unstable', so a new vaccine is needed each year and, even so, is a product of guesswork, so fast does the virus evolve.
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
I hope you are right this time but with your last prediction falsified within about a week, I don't have much confidence.
(According to Coronavirus Dashboard 34,522 deaths in the US at the moment. Days to falsify your new prediction assuming a constant rate: 8)

Add to that the thousands who are dying without their death being attributed to the virus. There have been reports from many rural coroners who said they can't know the cause of death of many because of a lack of tests. And in NYC, for example, EMTs have been pulling hundreds and hundreds of bodies from apartments and most of them are not being recorded as virus deaths, at least right away (which is why just yesterday or the day before the city added 3000+ deaths to the total).
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You're comparing an unstable virus with a stable one.
The flu virus is genetically unstable; it's constantly changing. Manufacturers have to make an educated guess each year at the expected antigenic profile of next seasons virus.
The current Covid-19 virus, thus far, appears much more stable.

COVAG-19 will constantly change in the host to host migration in animals. If the COVAG-19 comes back in a cycle it will be genetically different just like flus and colds do.The bats have over 200 variations of coronavirus.

Flus ar no more stable than coronaviruses. Both types of viruses mutate and change over time, and that is how they change over time in their cycles between different hosts. Even the recent history of coronaviruses there are variations that nave caused less verilant versions that infect humans in China more like colds and flu symptims . You are looking at one virus in a relatively narrow time frame.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I think you're missing my point. Some viruses evolve quickly, some are more stable. Smallpox and polio are stable. A vaccination will last for decades. Influenza, on the other hand, generates new antigenic surfaces constantly, it's 'unstable', so a new vaccine is needed each year and, even so, is a product of guesswork, so fast does the virus evolve.

I do not believe viruses are classified this way. Coronaviruses already are known to have a great diversity of variations in bats, over 200, and it recently evolved a variation to infect humans from an animal where it evolved into the variation that caused the pandemic. Your looking at too small a time frame to make that judgement.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Fortunately the history of viruses and their hosts will not be catastrophic. Viruses have been with all life forms since the beginning, and evolve with their hosts. It is a natural relationship. Viruses thrive when their host survives, Yes we are now essentially one world where epidemic viruses become pandemic will happen on a regular basis, and we will survive. The vaccines vary from virus to virus sometimes the work very well sometimes they don't, but they do contribute to our natural herd immunity. There is also coevolution between viruses and their hosts which contributes to the relationship.

An interesting side note on the origins of viruses:

The Regressive Hypothesis


In contrast to the progressive process just described, viruses may have originated via a regressive, or reductive, process. Microbiologists generally agree that certain bacteria that are obligate intracellular parasites, like Chlamydia and Rickettsia species, evolved from free-living ancestors. Indeed, genomic studies indicate that the mitochondria of eukaryotic cells and Rickettsia prowazekii may share a common, free-living ancestor (Andersson et al. 1998). It follows, then, that existing viruses may have evolved from more complex, possibly free-living organisms that lost genetic information over time, as they adopted a parasitic approach to replication.

...It's not the only hypothesis, but it seems to make sense to me.

Origin of Viruses | Learn Science at Scitable
 
Top