Man's freewill and God's divine sovereignty

[muhammad_isa]

Edit: my point is that any mistake made by humans can ultimately be traced back to a mistake by God.

Wrong .. it's no mistake.

I'm not arguing with "my maker." I'm arguing with you.

You are also arguing against G-d.

The reason being, that while you claim that you don't believe G-d exists, if He does, you claim that G-d is wrong to create mankind, as He should not have created us flawed and capable of arguing against Him.

G-d knows better than you. You just concoct seemingly smart arguments, that in reality are deigned to trick and confuse.
Mankind often "pass the buck". It's always somebody else's fault and never theirs.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You speak of which you have no knowledge.
It is a mere assumption. Why would a soul ever cease to be?G-d is immortal. G-d is of infinite nature. Souls are from G-d. If G-d "creates" souls, then what are they created from? Where do they come from, and where do they go to?
It makes no sense for souls to be temporary. It is an innovation to believe that. It is a pipe dream to think that "a satan" does not end up in eternal torment of his own making. Jesus tells us so in the Gospels, but you do not hear.

Yes, I do 'hear' that Jesus teaches to be in fear of Him who can kill the soul as found at Matthew 10:28 B.
As Adam 'became' a living soul at Genesis 2:7 ( Not before mortal Adam was formed was Adam a living soul )
At his death Adam 'became' a dead soul because the 'soul that sins dies' according to Ezekiel 18:4,20.
Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned back to non-life - Genesis 3:19.
A person can Not 'return' to a place he never was before.

Sinner Satan was never offered everlasting life.
Sinner Satan is wicked and No one wicked can have eternal life anywhere.
The wicked ( angelic or physical ) are ' destroyed forever ' according to Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35.
The wicked will be No more according to Psalms 37:10. No future for the wicked - Psalms 37:38.
The choice at 2 Peter 3:9 is to 'repent' if one does Not want to 'perish' ( be destroyed )
Sinner Satan will never repent. There is No forgiveness for committing the unforgivable sin - Matthew 12:32
Sinner Satan is a wilful practicer of sin and there is No sacrifice for the unrepentant sinner - Hebrews 10:26

 

[muhammad_isa]

Sinner Satan was never offered everlasting life.

Offered?
You still haven't told us how a soul can be "blotted out" ..
Can G-d be "blotted out" ?

If not, why not?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Wrong .. it's no mistake.

If God deliberately causes humans to sin, why would he punish people for doing as he wants?

You are also arguing against G-d.

The reason being, that while you claim that you don't believe G-d exists, if He does, you claim that G-d is wrong to create mankind, as He should not have created us flawed and capable of arguing against Him.

G-d knows better than you. You just concoct seemingly smart arguments, that in reality are deigned to trick and confuse.
Mankind often "pass the buck". It's always somebody else's fault and never theirs.

No, I'm not arguing against God. I'm telling you that your belief system seems inconsistent.

You're telling me things about your God and I'm telling you what the implications would be if those things were true. That's all.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If God deliberately causes humans to sin, why would he punish people for doing as he wants?

He does not cause us to sin, He allows us to sin.

Some sins are more serious than others.
G-d has given us an intellect. He has given us the responsibility to govern ourselves.
Law courts don't consider that G-d causes us to sin, and neither do I.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

He does not cause us to sin, He allows us to sin.

If we sin when God allows us to sin, this is an indication that God predisposed us to sin.

When we're "allowed" to sin, the only sins we would commit are the ones we're inclined to commit.

If you throw a paper airplane, you may not be holding it any more, but where it ends up is a reflection of the quality of your design.

(And the wind, but you believe that the wind is under God's control too, right?)

Some sins are more serious than others.
G-d has given us an intellect. He has given us the responsibility to govern ourselves.
Law courts don't consider that G-d causes us to sin, and neither do I.

Of course. Law courts conduct themselves as if God does not exist.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Law courts conduct themselves as if God does not exist.

No they don't.
The system of law in many countries has its roots in Abrahamic religion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No they don't.
The system of law in many countries has its roots in Abrahamic religion.

As you point out, courts assign no responsibility whatsoever to God.

Spectral evidence - i.e. purported communication from God, ghosts, or other supernatural forces - is inadmissible in court.

Arguments involving miracles and magic (e.g. "my client didn't shoot the victim! Satan put that bullet in him and forged all the ballistics marks to make it look like it was fired from my gun!") aren't enough to establish reasonable doubt.

At no time do secular courts treat the existence of God as true... or even as possible.

 

[muhammad_isa]

At no time do secular courts treat the existence of God as true... or even as possible.

..apart from the swearing process, of course.
Naturally, we don't expect G-d to take the witness stand or what have you.

I really don't know what is the matter with you. Why are you being so pedantic about G-d creating human beings capable of disobedience?
It's simple as I see it .. we can think for ourselves. There is something fundamental about that .. it means we have responsibility for our actions. This is not an accident.
There is a purpose behind that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

..apart from the swearing process, of course.

I'm not talking about trappings, ceremony, or ritual. I'm saying that never at any moment does the outcome of a criminal or civil case rely materially on a religious claim being true... or even in it being possible.

Naturally, we don't expect G-d to take the witness stand or what have you.

You don't expect that God will do anything at all; that's my point.

No defendant in a criminal trial gets off because the prosecution failed to prove that the crime couldn't have been committed by a demon. Secular courts do not allow for the possibility that demons actually exist.

No trial hinges on the testimony of a "witness" who swears that God gave them a divine message that provides facts that are relevant to the case. Secular courts do not allow for the possibility that God actually communicates with people.

I really don't know what is the matter with you. Why are you being so pedantic about G-d creating human beings capable of disobedience?

It's because you're contradicting yourself.

I'm trying to understand your position, but as long as you violate your own premises, I'm not going to be able to understand it.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Offered? You still haven't told us how a soul can be "blotted out" .. Can G-d be "blotted out" .....If not, why not?

Bible teaches that God is from and to everlasting ( No death for God ) - Psalms 90:2
A created soul can be blotted out at death because the soul that sins dies - Ezekiel 18:4,20.
If it were not for the resurrection hope there would be No hope for the dead - Matthew 20:28.
If sins were not blotted out - Acts of the Apostles 3:19 - the blot would remain. (No resurrection hope)
Revelation 3:5 shows God has the means to blot out (erase) one's name out of the Book of Life.
Names (souls) penciled in on condition - Exodus 32:32-33 - because a person can become unfaithful.
Plus, an unrepentant wicked person is 'blotted out' by being 'destroyed forever' as per Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

........It's simple as I see it .. we can think for ourselves. There is something fundamental about that .. it means we have responsibility for our actions. This is not an accident.
There is a purpose behind that.

Yes, I agree we have responsibility for our actions because we are all free to act responsibly toward God.
To me the purpose behind that is so we can gain 'everlasting life'. (either forever in heaven or forever on earth )

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If we sin when God allows us to sin, this is an indication that God predisposed us to sin..................

Rather, in the Bible, I find an indication that it was ADAM who predisposed us to sin.
Adam was created with human perfection so Adam, unlike us, could only sin on purpose, break the law on purpose.
Since we are all born 'after' Adam sinned, Adam passed down to us 'his' acquired human imperfection.
Thus, we can break the law by mistake, by accident, does not have to be willful as Adam's sin was.
By the end of Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years mankind will have reached the original human perfection as Adam originally had and by proving faithful we will No longer have leanings/ towards sinning, towards/ wrongdoing and be entitled to everlasting life forever in Heaven for some and the majority of people to live forever on Earth.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Bible teaches that God is from and to everlasting ( No death for God ) - Psalms 90:2

Exactly .. G-d is eternal.

..and what are souls "made from"?
You avoid this question.

A created soul can be blotted out at death because the soul that sins dies - Ezekiel 18:4,20.

Die to me, means that our heart stops beating and we are buried or burnt etc.

The whole point about having a soul that G-d "breathes" into us before birth, is that it doesn't die. It returns to where it came from i.e. G-d

..and G-d is eternal.

If it were not for the resurrection hope there would be No hope for the dead - Matthew 20:28.
If sins were not blotted out - Acts of the Apostles 3:19 - the blot would remain. (No resurrection hope)
Revelation 3:5 shows God has the means to blot out (erase) one's name out of the Book of Life.
Names (souls) penciled in on condition - Exodus 32:32-33 - because a person can become unfaithful.
Plus, an unrepentant wicked person is 'blotted out' by being 'destroyed forever' as per Psalm s92:7; Psalms 104:35.

This is not religious knowledge. This is a series of one-liners to satisfy your dogma.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Exactly .. G-d is eternal...and what are souls "made from"? You avoid this question.
Die to me, means that our heart stops beating and we are buried or burnt etc.
The whole point about having a soul that G-d "breathes" into us before birth, is that it doesn't die. It returns to where it came from i.e. G-d
..and G-d is eternal. This is not religious knowledge. This is a series of one-liners to satisfy your dogma.

I find Genesis 2:7 Genesis 3:19 informs us what souls are made from: Made from the dust of the ground.
God breathed into lifeless Adam the ' breath of life ' and we receive that 'breath of life' from father Adam down to us.
Buried in the Bible, but Not burnt, Not roasted, but in a 'sleeping state of being unconscious' - Ecclesiastes 9:5
Our spirit our life force ' it ' returns to God - Ecclesiastes 12:7 B.
As a foreclosed house does Not move or go anywhere one's spirit "it" returns to God in the sense that any future life prospect now lies in God's safe hands until Resurrection Day ( Resurrection Day meaning: Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years )
There 'will be' (future) a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous..... Acts of the Apostles 24:15.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Rather, in the Bible, I find an indication that it was ADAM who predisposed us to sin.

What about Adam's design or creation was outside of God's control?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What about Adam's design or creation was outside of God's control?

Adam and Angels both were created as free-willed creation, both have free-will choices.
Free to love and obey God or not. God does Not interfere with our choosing to obey or disobey.
We can freely regulate oneself. Then, we either have a good outcome or a bad outcome as Adam had.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Adam and Angels both were created as free-willed creation, both have free-will choices.
Free to love and obey God or not. God does Not interfere with our choosing to obey or disobey.
We can freely regulate oneself. Then, we either have a good outcome or a bad outcome as Adam had.

You didn't answer my question.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What about Adam's design or creation was outside of God's control?

Outside of God's control was: Adam's free-will choices; voluntary choices.
This is why the number of the 'great crowd' of Revelation 7:9,14 is an un-known number ( Not in God's control ).

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.........The whole point about having a soul that G-d "breathes" into us before birth, is that it doesn't die. It returns to where it came from i.e. G-d................

I like how you mention ^ above ^ (three times) that one's soul is a neuter "IT" .
Just as one's 'spirit' is also a neuter 'it' at Ecclesiastes 12:7 B.
Adam 'did Not have a soul' because Adam was: a soul a living person - Genesis 2:7
Adam 'did Not possess a soul', rather Adam 'became' a living soul, a living person until he died.