The ability to do otherwise.
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Magick and Free Will
- Thread starter 1137
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The ability to do otherwise.
And how do we determin what is our nature and what is other wise.
For magic(k) to be anything more than another cog in the machine, to have any bigger affect on the universe than cell division, it would require the ability to do otherwise. Now, we can say that if you could somehow manipulate the more basic levels of reality mentally then magic(k) would hold even more validity. For example, if a rain dance caused rain because the practitioners are somehow getting in touch with the universe at a more basic level where the innervesre and outerverse are completely connected, then magic(k) truly works.
I realized, this actually does not violate hard determinism.
However, psychological magic(k) is different.
I realized, this actually does not violate hard determinism.
However, psychological magic(k) is different.
Everything is in our nature, that is the point. We cannot act free of our nature, of our genes, of our brains and subconscious desires, etc. Nor can we manipulate our subconscious minds, our genes, we can affect our conscious mind to some extent, but only within how we would do so in our nature.
Says who?
I'm pretty sure psychology says that. If not I would be forever thankful if you can provide sources showing it to be false.
LOL, ask the marketing folks, not the psychologists.
What do you mean "classify" it?
in regards to determinism and free will
If we couldn't manipulate subconscious desires and habits, psychology would be useless.
It's irrelevant. Whether determinism or free will are true, the placebo effect is the same. Whether we choose to convince ourselves of something or have no other choice, the placebo effect is still the placebo effect.
Says who? We can manipulate our conscious minds after all. You can be depressed but not allow that depression to control you. However, you cannot eliminate depression, only consciously ignore it or take medication.
The placebo has no real effect. We have chosen to convince ourselves otherwise.
The phrase "we manipulate our conscious minds" is essentially free will for most people.
Sometimes you can pinpoint the things in your life that cause you to feel depressed, and then eliminate/change those things- thus changing/eliminating the feelings of depression in tandem (as one inter-related action).
Indeed, the placebo effect is a well documented effect. It seems to be based on expectation and conditioning (faith.) Can all of the causal factors for this effect be traced? Are expectation and conditioning enough to cause the effect?
You might find this interesting
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"Chosen" to yes. I have no issues with that... in fact you reiterated what I said.
Well most people are silly then. It implies not free will at all. Rather, that it is in our nature for our mind to "manipulate" itself. Please show where free will is implied.
Things that make you depressed are hardly the same as clinical depression. Things that affect your depression can be eliminated from your life, but it still does not imply free will in any way.
e x p a n d i n g de term ination
[FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]de·ter·mi·na·tion[/SIZE][/FONT]
(d
[SIZE=-1]NOUN:[/SIZE]
- The act of making or arriving at a decision. See Synonyms at decision.
- The decision reached.
- Firmness of purpose; resolve: approached the task with determination and energy.
- A fixed intention or resolution: returned to school with a determination to finish.
- The settling of a question or case by an authoritative decision or pronouncement, especially by a judicial body: The choice of a foster home was left to the determination of the court.
- The decision or pronouncement made.
- The ascertaining or fixing of the quantity, quality, position, or character of something: a determination of the ship's longitude; a determination of the mass of the universe.
- The result of such ascertaining.
- A fixed movement or tendency toward an object or end.
- Logic
- The defining of a concept through its constituent elements.
- The qualification of a concept or proposition to render it more definite or specific.
As human beings we determine, we are determined, and we act with determination.
In the form of a noun, our 'word', or final say, is a determination. (ie, we make determinations)
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I'm well aware of all this, I just have no idea how it is supposed to show we have free will. So the brain can trick itself... we have known that for quite a while. Just sit in a dark room after hearing scary stories, and when you start imagining shadows and a presence decide if you are freely choosing to sense those things or if it is beyond your control, your brain tricking your mind. Even as you remind yourself with certainty that it is not real, you are likely to still feel scared.
I cannot find the video I wanted to. However, this experience was done on subjects (same scientist but the experiment I am thinking of was slightly different), and even when a subject became aware it was not actually their body being attack, they still reacted in the same way.
[youtube]rawY2VzN4-c[/youtube]
Body-swap Illusion Tricks Minds in New Study - YouTube
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