1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Luke 14:23 A question for bible believing Christians

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by keithnurse, Aug 9, 2009.

  1. keithnurse

    keithnurse Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2009
    Messages:
    434
    Ratings:
    +34
    Luke 14:23 says: The master said: "go out to the highways and country lanes and force people to come in, to make sure my house is full". This verse is not a command of Jesus, but, rather is at the end of the parable "A man once gave a feast". In the parable a man gave a feast and invited many guests. At the time for the feast he sent the servants out to tell those he had invited to come because everything was ready. None of those people came, they all had other things to do. The man sent the servants to bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame. Then the servants came to him and said there is still some room left in the banquet room. The man said go out and find people and force them to come so my house will be full. This verse was used centuries ago by Catholics and Protestants in Europe to support forcing people to go to the one officially approved church in a nation. Today Christians generally don't favor forcing people to go to church, so what do Christians do with this verse now? I can't think of any way to get around it except to ignore it. How do Christians soft pedal this verse today?
     
  2. led by the spirit

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2009
    Messages:
    46
    Ratings:
    +3
    Luke 14:23
    Go out into the highways - Since enough had not been found in the lanes and streets, he commands the servant to go into the roads - the public highways out of the city, as well as to the streets “in” it - and invite them also.

    Hedges - A hedge is the inclosure around a field or vineyard. It was commonly made of thorns, which were planted thick, and which kept the cattle out of the vineyard. “A common plant for this purpose is the prickly pear, a species of cactus, which grows several feet high, and as thick as a man’s body, armed with sharp thorns, and thus forming an almost impervious defense” (Professor Hackett, “Scripture Illustrations,” p. 174). Those in the hedges were poor laborers employed in planting them or trimming them - people of the lowest class and of great poverty. By his directing them to go first into the streets of the city and then into the highways, we are not to understand our Saviour as referring to different classes of people, but only as denoting the “earnestness” with which God offers salvation to people, and his willingness that the most despised should come and live. Some parts of parables are thrown in for the sake of “keeping,” and they should not be pressed or forced to obtain any obscure or fanciful signification. The great point in this parable was, that God would call in the Gentiles after the Jews had rejected the gospel. This should be kept always in view in interpreting all the parts of the parable.

    Compel them - That is, urge them, press them earnestly, one and all. Do not hear their excuses on account of their poverty and low rank of life, but urge them so as to overcome their objections and lead them to the feast. This expresses the “earnestness” of the man; his anxiety that his table should be filled, and his purpose not to reject any on account of their poverty, or ignorance, or want of apparel. So God is earnest in regard to the most polluted and vile. He commands his servants, his ministers, to “urge” them to come, to “press” on them the salvation of the gospel, and to use all the means in their power to bring into heaven poor and needy sinners.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. keithnurse

    keithnurse Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2009
    Messages:
    434
    Ratings:
    +34
    I guess the next question should be "what is the Greek word in the text that is translated as "compel"?" If the word means "compel" then I don't think it is honest to say it really means "urge". To compel someone means to force them to do something.
     
  4. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    5,394
    Ratings:
    +571
    The English says "compel" but the Greek translation is more accurately "to urge." Some things are lost in translation.
     
  5. keithnurse

    keithnurse Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2009
    Messages:
    434
    Ratings:
    +34
    What is the Greek word that is translated as "compel"?
     
  6. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    5,394
    Ratings:
    +571
    Don't know, but a footnote in my Bible offers the simple explanation that "compel" came from the Greek "urge."
     
  7. te_lanus

    te_lanus Alien Hybrid

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,716
    Ratings:
    +837
    Religion:
    Canaanite
    The word is "anagkazō" to necessitate: - compel, constrain (according to Strong's Greek dictionary)
     
  8. gwk230

    gwk230 Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    356
    Ratings:
    +11
    G315
    ἀναγκάζω
    anagkazō
    Thayer Definition:
    1) to necessitate, compel, drive to, constrain
    1a) by force, threats, etc.
    1b) by permission, entreaties, etc.
    1c) by other means
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from
    G318
    Citing in TDNT: 1:344, 55
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. gwk230

    gwk230 Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    356
    Ratings:
    +11
    This in Luke is, to me, the same as the wedding story in Matthew 22. There it states to "bid" them to come which is no more than to ask or invite them.
     
  10. keithnurse

    keithnurse Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2009
    Messages:
    434
    Ratings:
    +34
    Thank, gwk230, this answers my question. Definition #1 is the primary definition, so, anagkazo does mean force or compel. I guess the only way modern Christians can reconcile this with modern sensibilities about human rights is to say this means to urge people to come to church.
     
  11. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    5,394
    Ratings:
    +571
    keithnurse, when did you become an expert in Greek?
     
  12. keithnurse

    keithnurse Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2009
    Messages:
    434
    Ratings:
    +34
    I am going by what the Thayers concordance says about the meaning of that word. If you have a rebuttal to what Thayers says then tell us what it is. In dictionaries the primary definition of a word is given first. If the word really means "urge" why isn't it translated as urge in the modern english versions? The fact that it is translated as "compel" in all of them should tell you that is the better translation than "urge".
     
    #12 keithnurse, Aug 11, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2009
  13. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    5,394
    Ratings:
    +571
    Do you not know that words can mean different things in different contexts? For example, the Japanese word "taihen" means terrible. But, depending on the context, it can be terribly good or terribly bad or terribly X. Cannot "compel" be subject to similar differences?
     
  14. Arkholt

    Arkholt Non-vessel

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2009
    Messages:
    203
    Ratings:
    +13
    I don't think it's wise to quibble over one greek word in any particular parable. Parables are meant to teach concepts while using situations that are familiar to those being taught. Christ's parables were meant to be familiar to the Jews of that time. This is obviously no different, and must have been something that the people had either heard of or experienced before.

    Several of the parables also involve situations which are not ideal, but which still illustrate a point. Christ wasn't teaching that we should force people to come to church, he was telling a story about somebody who prepared a feast, and how his friends who promised they would come said they had better things to do. He invited and/or compelled everyone else to come instead. It's about keeping your promises, or you'll lose your reward, not about forcing people to come to church. Just because someone in the story acted in a certain way doesn't mean that Christ is teaching everyone that they should act in that way; it's about the deeper meaning.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. gwk230

    gwk230 Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    356
    Ratings:
    +11

    I see that "compel" can mean "urge" as well.......

    compel - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
     
  16. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    42,620
    Ratings:
    +7,319
    Thats the best support you can come up with?

    You will have to go ask the ones who have translated it.
    Then you will needs to figure out what agenda they had, if any.
    Then you have to take into account their bias.
    Not to mention all the argument over "tradition"...

    This is nothing more than you making an appeal to numbers in order to ratify your belief.

    not compelling at all.
     
  17. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    14,338
    Ratings:
    +806
    Religion:
    Christian
    This is a case of improper exegesis. The problem stems from the fact that there are two concepts of "The Kingdom of Heaven" (Kingdom of God) in the Bible. The first is the spiritual kingdom which Jesus says is within us; the second is the Physical kingdom that comes on earth after the rapture. Context tells you which one. First of all you can't physically bring a person into a spiritual kingdom but you can physically bring a person into a physical kingdom. This works with the context of a wedding feast which is pictured in the book of Revelation as a post rapture event but previous to the kingdom on earth event. Since the invitation requires a physical relocation (The wedding feast takes place in the sky) it becomes obvious that it is also an invitation to the rapture. Since those not raptured are subject to the worldwide conflagration due to strike the earth, it becomes an exigency to get people off the earth before that happens. When a person's life is at stake it isn't just an urgancy it is an emergency and requires strong measures.

    The New Jerusalem is the only physical place large enough in the sky when this happens to receive all the people of the earth. It measures approximately 1500 miles cubed and could hold as many as 5 billion people.

    The church tends to think of this as a strictly church event but I think that is a narrow interpretation. IMO this is a rescue of humanity en masse. Granted in the past God has been willing to start again with only a few people but that doesn't mean He has to do it that way every time. However even with the urging and forcing a very large number of people will perish.
     
  18. lockyfan

    lockyfan Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2006
    Messages:
    756
    Ratings:
    +13
    it applies to the preaching work today.

    God is asking and compelling people to join him, the question though is who feels compelled to join him. So really it applies to collection people to him and etting them to partke of his "table"rather then that of the demons table


    1 Corinthians 10:21 YOU cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; YOU cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons"
     
  19. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    14,338
    Ratings:
    +806
    Religion:
    Christian
    Paul says to be persuasive. That isn't the same thing as forcing people. Even in the recue mission there is still a downside. If someone gets forced into being raptured but isn't willing to receive Jesus then he is cast out into outer darkness. I suppose it is a question of which is worse, the lake of fire or the outer darkness. On the other hand who can tell what a person will decide when he gets there.

    There are some who feel the threat of Hell is compulsion but I don't see it that way. God simply is supplying the alternatives. Actions and beliefs have natural consequences that can be avoided by making the right choices.
     
  20. lockyfan

    lockyfan Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2006
    Messages:
    756
    Ratings:
    +13

    I am nmot forcing and neither is Jehovah. He allows you to have a choice.

    The bible doesnt even teach about rapture, he doesnt mak everyone go to somewhere else, if you choose to be with Jehovah, then you choose life, if you choose not to be you choose death. The lake of fire is not a burning torment, but the same as the "Darkness"it is eternal destruction.

    God wants people out witnessing to others so that when the day comes for him to act no one can say that they werent warned, because he can pinpoint to them the times they were given the chance to know him and jsut told the people to go away that you werent interested.

    He wont perpetuate this world forever, he is going to bring it to an end along with those who are not following him, through their own choice not to.

    He wont make you do anything you dont want to do, thus the reason why he gave us free will. I believe it is our free will to choose to serve him or not. I prefer ot serve him, out of love, to make sure people know who he is and how he is going to restore all the human race to what he intended it to be. A perfect race living in a paradise.

    And that is what i believe anyway
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...