Luciferians: Who is Lucifer, etc.

[ThePainefulTruth]

I actually have seen KJV-only people make a big deal out of this. They argue this is the reason the KJV is correct in rendering the verse in Isaiah as "Lucifer." They want it to be a proper name so they can avoid the obvious embarrassment you cite.

How does that avoid the embarrassment? No matter how you cut it, Isiah is attaching a very derogatory meaning to the word "Lucifer", and by his imagery, the Morning Star. Strong's definition:

Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1. shining one, morning star, Lucifer
the king of Babylon and Satan
2.(TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

Isa 14:11-23
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[von bek]

How does that avoid the embarrassment? No matter how you cut it, Isiah is attaching a very derogatory meaning to the word "Lucifer", and by his imagery, the Morning Star. Strong's definition:

Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1. shining one, morning star, Lucifer
the king of Babylon and Satan
2.(TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

Isa 14:11-23
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.

The issue is that if Lucifer is used, they can pretend that it is a proper name and discard the fact that Lucifer is a word that MEANS Morning Star in the text. If Lucifer is used in Isaiah as a proper name, untranslated, and then the term Jesus uses in Revelation IS translated, the connection between Lucifer and morning star has become obscured. If a Christian in modern day America is reading the KJV and has zero knowledge of the original languages underlying the text, they will never realize that Jesus uses a phrase in Revelation that is tied to a fallen king in Isaiah. A lot of Christians think Lucifer is the devil's name before his fall.

Look, I agree with you that the embarrassment is there. But, that can be hidden by how you translate the text. And, there are Christians who are aware of and do speak about the passages in question.

 

[At The Left Hand ov God]

Honestly should of just asked this in the LHP DIR. You would of gotten more straight forward answers.

The issue is that if Lucifer is used, they can pretend that it is a proper name and discard the fact that Lucifer is a word that MEANS Morning Star in the text. If Lucifer is used in Isaiah as a proper name, untranslated, and then the term Jesus uses in Revelation IS translated, the connection between Lucifer and morning star has become obscured. If a Christian in modern day America is reading the KJV and has zero knowledge of the original languages underlying the text, they will never realize that Jesus uses a phrase in Revelation that is tied to a fallen king in Isaiah. A lot of Christians think Lucifer is the devil's name before his fall.

Look, I agree with you that the embarrassment is there. But, that can be hidden by how you translate the text. And, there are Christians who are aware of and do speak about the passages in question.

I'd highly recommend looking through the various Luciferian ideals. Lucifer is a title, as has been posted multiple times, meaning Light-Bringer/Light-Bearer/Morning Star ect. It's easily changeable with the various other "Light-Bringers" throughout myths/religion, Prometheus, The Coyote, Anasi ect.

 

[von bek]

Honestly should of just asked this in the LHP DIR. You would of gotten more straight forward answers.



I'd highly recommend looking through the various Luciferian ideals. Lucifer is a title, as has been posted multiple times, meaning Light-Bringer/Light-Bearer/Morning Star ect. It's easily changeable with the various other "Light-Bringers" throughout myths/religion, Prometheus, The Coyote, Anasi ect.

I hope you are following what I am saying. The eye-roll makes me think you aren't.

 

[At The Left Hand ov God]

I hope you are following what I am saying. The eye-roll makes me think you aren't.

Please excuse me. I went back and reread your first post and I agree.

 

[Desert Snake]

Honestly should of just asked this in the LHP DIR. You would of gotten more straight forward answers.

/no idea why that would matter, which DIR this is placed in
/you are clearly inferring that the thread question is not getting 'straight forward' answers. If something is wrong in the answers, then you can correct the misinformation. That would have happened in the other DIR, as well.

 

[von bek]

Please excuse me. I went back and reread your first post and I agree.

No problem.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

The issue is that if Lucifer is used, they can pretend that it is a proper name and discard the fact that Lucifer is a word that MEANS Morning Star in the text. If Lucifer is used in Isaiah as a proper name, untranslated, and then the term Jesus uses in Revelation IS translated, the connection between Lucifer and morning star has become obscured. If a Christian in modern day America is reading the KJV and has zero knowledge of the original languages underlying the text, they will never realize that Jesus uses a phrase in Revelation that is tied to a fallen king in Isaiah. A lot of Christians think Lucifer is the devil's name before his fall.

Look, I agree with you that the embarrassment is there. But, that can be hidden by how you translate the text. And, there are Christians who are aware of and do speak about the passages in question.

You're saying "they can pretend" (who are "they", intellectuals and wise men etc.?) so that the ignorant masses will remain ignorant in their faith? And what about the intellectuals, they know but ignore? Everything is reduced to ignorance or hypocrisy, with Truth being irrelevant. If that's the case, it's the worst example of the blind leading the blind possible.

And what about those Christians who are aware and speak about the passages in question? Are they any less hypocritical for saying, "why yes it's there--Next!"?

 

[crossfire]

How does that avoid the embarrassment? No matter how you cut it, Isiah is attaching a very derogatory meaning to the word "Lucifer", and by his imagery, the Morning Star. Strong's definition:

Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1. shining one, morning star, Lucifer
the king of Babylon and Satan
2.(TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

Isa 14:11-23
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.

If you take this metaphorically, then it parallels the process of deep psychology where you do some heavy soul searching, looking for repressed problems, bringing them into consciousness, and addressing them. (The passage mentions the kings of the nations buried in their glory. These would be repressed problems that are glossed over and whitewashed rather than examined.)
This particular passage follows the more Apollo-type/Satanic method of destruction of evil, rather than the Luciferian processes of transformation through enlightenment.

 

[crossfire]

If you take this metaphorically, then it parallels the process of deep psychology where you do some heavy soul searching, looking for repressed problems, bringing them into consciousness, and addressing them. (The passage mentions the kings of the nations buried in their glory. These would be repressed problems that are glossed over and whitewashed rather than examined.)
This particular passage follows the more Apollo-type/Satanic method of destruction of evil, rather than the Luciferian processes of transformation through enlightenment.

The book of Revelation also seems to follow the Apollo-type/Satanic method of destruction of evil, as well.

 

[psychoslice]

Well to me he is just like god, an imagined being that doesn't exist.

 

[DemonSparklez]

/Who is Lucifer -bringer of light
/What texts do you use, if any-comic sans
/Is Lucifer a ''real entity''-yeah
/Do you think that Lucifer and Satan, are the same being?-yes, seen in a different light.
/Do you belong to a religious group?-hahahahahha. no.
/Have you met Lucifer?-I met Baphomet.
Once you understand him, he's not that bad. He's been misrepresented by the christians.

and anything else you might want to add.-The world is a bigger place than what we were brainwashed into believing growing up. Stigma is a sad side effect of the human condition and flaw and ignorance can literally kill.

thanks!

You're welcome : 3

 

[Desert Snake]

Interesting responses, people. Certainly nothing that currently has any appeal to me, for various reasons. Some interesting things brought up by crossfire.
more ''luciferians'' or apparently also setians Satanists etc welcome to comment, !

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Interesting responses, people. Certainly nothing that currently has any appeal to me, for various reasons.

You asked who Lucifer is, then claim that the answers have no appeal for you? I guess that's pretty much the definition of a painful Truth.

If you take this metaphorically, then it parallels the process of deep psychology where you do some heavy soul searching, looking for repressed problems, bringing them into consciousness, and addressing them.

But this brings them into consciousness and then ignores them.

(The passage mentions the kings of the nations buried in their glory. These would be repressed problems that are glossed over and whitewashed rather than examined.)

No. He's reproaching the King of Babylon for being so evil. Compared to him, they are buried in glory, while he is left to rot with the worms, literally.

his particular passage follows the more Apollo-type/Satanic method of destruction of evil, rather than the Luciferian processes of transformation through enlightenment.

Is this the Satanists trying to glom onto Apollo because he is a more respectable pagan god?

Well to me he is just like god, an imagined being that doesn't exist.

You compare a possibility to a myth.

 

[Desert Snake]

You asked who Lucifer is, then claim that the answers have no appeal for you? I guess that's pretty much the definition of a painful Truth.

You mean like a negative thing? I don't think so. Like I said, some interesting answers.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

You mean like a negative thing? I don't think so. Like I said, some interesting answers.

Well, a train wreck is interesting.

 

[crossfire]

<...>

Is this the Satanists trying to glom onto Apollo because he is a more respectable pagan god?

<...>

I'm not a Satanist. Here is my reasoning:
From theoi.com:

Apollo is -- 1. the god who punishes and destroys (oulios) the wicked and overbearing, and as such he is described as the god with bow and arrows, the gift of Hephaestus. (Hom. Il. i. 42, xxiv.605, Od. xi. 318, xv. 410, &c.; comp. Pind. Pyth. iii. 15, &c.) Various epithets given to him in the Homeric poems, such as hekatos, hekaergos, hekêbolos, ekatêbolos, klutotoxos, and argurotoxos, refer to him as the god who with his darts hits his object at a distance and never misses it. All sudden deaths of men, whether they were regarded as a punishment or a reward, were believed to be the effect of the arrows of Apollo; and with the same arrows he sent the plague into the camp of the Greeks. Hyginus relates, that four days after his birth, Apollo went to mount Parnassus, and there killed the dragon Python, who had pursued his mother during her wanderings, before she reached Delos. He is also said to have assisted Zeus in his contest with the giants. (Apollod, i. 6. § 2.) The circumstance of Apollo being the destroyer of the wicked was believed by some of the ancients to have given rise to his name Apollo, which they connected with apollumi, "to destroy." (Aeschyl. Agam. 1081.) Some modern writers, on the other hand, who consider the power of averting evil to have been the original and principal feature in his character, say that Apollôn, i. e. Apellôn, (from the root pello), signifies the god who drives away evil, and is synonymous with alexikakas, Acesius, Acestor, sôtêr, and other names and epithets applied to Apollo.

2. The god who affords help and wards off evil. As he had the power of visiting men with plagues and epidemics, so he was also able to deliver men from them, if duly propitiated, or at least by his oracles to suggest the means by which such calamities could be averted.​

 

[Desert Snake]

Well, a train wreck is interesting.

There have been some interesting answers

 

[Desert Snake]

The book of Revelation also seems to follow the Apollo-type/Satanic method of destruction of evil, as well.

Jesus is the Deity that is concerned there, though. Not sure how that correlates/

 

[crossfire]

Jesus is the Deity that is concerned there, though. Not sure how that correlates/

Revelation 9:1-12

9 The fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth. The key to the shaft of the abyss was given to him. 2 He opened the shaft of the abyss, and smoke came up out of the shaft like smoke from a great furnace so that the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke from the shaft. 3 Then locusts came out of the smoke on to the earth, and power was given to them like the power that scorpions have on the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green plant, or any tree, but only people who do not have God’s seal on their foreheads. 5 They were not permitted to kill them but were to torment them for five months; their torment is like the torment caused by a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days people will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, but death will flee from them.

7 The appearance of the locusts was like horses equipped for battle. Something like gold crowns was on their heads; their faces were like men’s faces; 8 they had hair like women’s hair; their teeth were like lions’ teeth; 9 they had chests like iron breastplates; the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses rushing into battle; 10 and they had tails with stingers like scorpions, so that with their tails they had the power to harm people for five months. 11 They had as their king the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he has the name Apollyon.​